There is ethnic cleansing"
Mutahana Hareth Al-Dari, spokesman of the influential Iraqi
Association of Muslim Scholars, tells
Amira
Howeidy that the time has come for everyone, including Sunnis,
to arm themselves
As Iraq falls near to the abyss of civil war, a security clampdown
on the Iraqi Association of Muslim Scholars (AMS) twice this week went
almost unnoticed. On Monday, US forces supported by other unidentified
armed groups raided the headquarters of the influential and largely
Sunni Association and arrested two of its main leaders.
Al-Ahram Weekly caught up with the AMS's spokesman, Mutahana
Hareth Al-Dari, 37, during a visit to Cairo where he was putting the
final touches on the soon-to-be-launched AMS satellite channel
Al-Rafedein, to be based in Cairo.
During the interview, Al-Dari cautiously avoided adopting what
could be interpreted as a sectarian discourse but argued that there are
forms of ethnic cleansing occurring in Iraq.
When asked about the role of Muqtada Al-Sadr's Mahdi Army in last
week's sectarian violence, Al-Dari declined to comment. According to
informed Iraqi sources who spoke to the Weekly on condition of
anonymity the Mahdi army has been "infiltrated" by the Badr
Organisation, the military wing of the Supreme Council for Islamic
Revolution in Iraq and other state-sponsored militias. And as a result,
Al-Sadr gradually lost direct control over his militia which is now
associated with sectarian violence in Iraq. AMS considers Al-Sadr, who
is of Arab origin, a nationalist figure and ally.
Excerpts:
The Washington Post reported that 1300 Iraqis,
mostly Sunnis, were killed in the violence that erupted following the
blast in Al-Askariya Mosque in Samarra. Has the civil war started in
Iraq?
No. God willing, it won't start. There are attempts to ignite a civil
war.
How then do you describe what's happening in Iraq? What's a civil
war if this isn't one?
There were prospects of a civil war but they were contained. But the
fire will remain underneath the ashes. The forces that were behind the
recent crisis will work on igniting it again. Civil war will begin when
some forces lose their conscious awareness; I mean the forces which are
armed with patience and who endure pain rather than slip into
fitna (civil strife). When that happens there will be civil war.
But thank God, they chose the general interest of the people over
personal interest.
As for the number of Iraqis killed in the past week, the AMS already
announced that the death toll exceeds 300. This was confirmed today when
the general manager of Al-Teb Adli hospital and its morgue said they
have 329 bodies. Then of course there are tens of bodies that were
buried by their families before they reached the morgue. So we're
actually talking about approximately 400. The 1300 figure is an
exaggeration, a way to pour fuel to the fire. A death toll of 400 is not
a small figure either.
Reports from Iraq Tuesday said that Sunnis from across Iraq are
sending or preparing to send weapons to Baghdad to protect Sunnis and
their mosques. Can you confirm this? Do the Sunnis need to be armed?
This need has existed for a long time now. Long before the recent
violence, the current government and the security apparatus
unfortunately exercised many forms of terrorism against citizens ...
There have been detentions and murders, en masse, of many citizens,
mostly Sunni, who were taken from their homes at night. So the danger is
not new. It's ongoing. The difference this time is that in the past, no
one could defend himself because carrying or possessing a weapon was a
crime. The occupation forces together with the security forces would
conduct their night raids and no one could do anything about it. But
after the brutal attack of security forces in daylight against [Sunni]
mosques, it is the duty of everyone to defend themselves.
I think that recent events proved to the whole world that there is
state violence against many Iraqis. So now it's justifiable and totally
reasonable that one defends oneself by any and all means necessary.
The Mahdi army of Moqtada Al-Sadr, and the armed wing of the
SCIRI, the Badr organisation, the death squads and such Shia militias,
have been exposed recently for their violence against Sunnis. And even
during the curfew earlier this week, they roamed the streets freely,
terrorising the population and committing more violence and killings.
How does the AMS deal with this?
There are security organisations that are affiliated with the current
government. Then there are partisan militias that are associated with
and have infiltrated these security organisations to serve a political
role. It was these militias and the security forces that targeted
civilians in the past week.
Can you please name names?
It's very clear and doesn't need naming. These militias have
infiltrated the interior and defence ministries.
From the Badr organisation?
Yes.
Does Iran pose a threat to the stability and unity of Iraq? Do you
see an Iranian hand in the recent violence?
There are many regional and international parties that meddle in
Iraqi affairs.
But it's clear that Iran is in Iraq and the US is struggling to
contain it.
The occupation created a lot of problems, such as the side struggles
that are taking place in Iraq ... Iraq has become the battleground for
settling accounts.
When AMS head Sheikh Hareth Al-Dari's home was attacked this week
he accused the security forces. Why would the government attack an
important Sunni figure like him?
He wasn't attacked because he's a Sunni figure but because he's a
national figure. This attack coincided with an appeal he made the day
before for the Iraqi people to practice self- restraint and to be
patient. He also accused the security forces of orchestrating the
violent events that included burning [Sunni] mosques. The following day
his house was attacked. Also recently there were intense efforts by the
AMS and the Khalisi School to contain the crisis. Most people don't know
that the AMS is defined by the security forces -- specifically the
interior and defence ministers -- as an organisation that supports
terrorism.
The timing of the Samarra attack followed revelations of
state-sponsored sectarian violence and what seem to be American
realisations that empowering the Shia also empowered Iran in Iraq. Do
you agree?
State-sponsored violence, government prisons, government militias,
are exploiting the sectarian issue ... The timing of the Askariya attack
was very sensitive. It happened as talks about forming national
government -- which won't necessarily reflect the results of the
elections and would have entailed that some of the winners make
concessions -- were taking place. This was preceded with statements by
US Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad in this respect. All these were messages
received by some political forces that won in the elections that there's
an attempt to sabotage their election success. Their response came in
Samarra.
After Samarra and the events that followed which exposed Shia
rogue elements within the government, will the Sunni bloc, now that it
decided to resume talks to form a coalition government, be in a better
position to negotiate a fair deal?
AMS projects itself as a national, not Sunni, option. A political
process that is taking place under foreign occupation is not an issue of
concern for us and we don't think it's a legitimate process. As for the
National Accord Front [the Sunni bloc that is negotiating] that's their
decision. Forming a "national government" will not achieve the interests
of the Iraqi people. Everybody was talking about democratic elections
that will end the violence in Iraq, followed by elections that will form
a government, after that withdrawal of the occupation forces, etc. That
was what propagated. The elections happened and talks for forming a
government are faltering and a government is not expected to form any
time soon ... And unfortunately the latest events where blood was shed
and precious lives were lost were used for cheap political gains.
So you're saying even if the Sunni bloc gets control over key
ministries in the new government it won't change much.
No, it won't. There are Sunni ministries in the current government,
including the Defence Ministry. What did they achieve? Nothing, and they
never will. They're just for window dressing. The same will apply to the
future government ... Why didn't we hear their voice when the violence
broke out? In the press conference that [Sunni] Defence Minister Saduun
Al-Dolaimi held Saturday, he simply didn't speak a word of truth about
the death toll or the number of mosques attacked.
How did recent events affect the occupation?
It benefited from it. The occupation forces didn't move to stop the
violence when it could have contained it from the very beginning -- five
or six tanks could have done it. It is obliged under international law
to protect the country it is occupying. It didn't and it simply
watched.
The Defence Ministry dispatched armoured units and vehicles to
protect certain areas in Baghdad, but this hasn't really dispelled Sunni
fears. Are these fears valid?
These armoured vehicles are so outdated they're completely useless.
Besides, they are only there during the day. At night when the curfew
begins, the death squads, or the black crows as they're called in Iraq,
begin to appear everywhere. On Monday, the Forsan village in Nahrwan,
which is south east of Baghdad, was completely besieged by the black
crows and Interior Ministry forces -- specifically the Al-Karar
battalion and one other -- and they burned tens of houses.
Who exactly are the black crows?
They're also called the men in black. Nobody dares identify them
although everybody knows who they are. They are groups selected by some
political parties that have infiltrated the Interior Ministry and
directly report to it.
What do they want? Liquidate Iraqi academics? Terrorise Sunni
Iraqis?
This is a national issue. There are attempts to silence all the
national voices in Iraq regardless of their [sectarian] affiliations.
The assassinations have targeted both Sunni and Shia Iraqis.
But the Sunnis have been the primary victims.
Yes indeed. But any voice that says "No" gets killed. They want to
clear the scene to execute their plans of maintaining the sectarian and
ethnic dominance that we see today. This is why Iraqis migrate in
massive numbers.
So what we're seeing is not a civil war but ethnic cleansing?
Yes. There is ethnic, sectarian and political cleansing and it is
executed by [Iraq's] security forces.