RE: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right...
Web services, web schmervices marc f -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of danch Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right... Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. Oh, by the way - Web Services also exposes a lot of the detail of the protocol to the programmer, just to really piss off the people who though writing then compiling IDL was a pain in the ass. Now, of course, you get to choose between compiling or generating the IDL, which is so chock full of fun little XML quirks as to be unreadable by normal humans anyway. Bah! The more that things change, the more they get worse. -danch Bill Burke wrote: What I've been saying all along... People have been building Web services under different names for 20 or 30 years, he explains. We've been building distributed systems for years out using CORBA and RMI and all of that. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right...
It doesn't even have the concept of object identity, so it is even pre Corba. I figure they have about 5 years to catch up with what Corba has today. Of course, I think Corba will continue to die the slow death. -dain danch wrote: Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. Oh, by the way - Web Services also exposes a lot of the detail of the protocol to the programmer, just to really piss off the people who though writing then compiling IDL was a pain in the ass. Now, of course, you get to choose between compiling or generating the IDL, which is so chock full of fun little XML quirks as to be unreadable by normal humans anyway. Bah! The more that things change, the more they get worse. -danch Bill Burke wrote: What I've been saying all along... People have been building Web services under different names for 20 or 30 years, he explains. We've been building distributed systems for years out using CORBA and RMI and all of that. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development -- Dain Sundstrom Chief Architect JBossCMP JBoss Group, LLC --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right...
Hi, I should probably know better to add to this discussion, but... I am unfamiliar with CORBA, and new to Web Services. Nonetheless, the type of web services (SOAP + UDDI) that we are looking at now seems useful to me. Since I think Web Services is useful, I'm of course interested in anything that may be better. For starters, the phrase Web Services makes little sense - might as well call it Buzzword^2. Web Services don't exist on the Web, and, under a sufficiently general definition, what is not a service? The more that things change, the more they get worse. Things are getting better for me. I used to get data from third parties via http posts html scraping. Now I have an API, standards, specifications -- a tool set that doesn't dissapear when I try to interact with someone else's (unique yet similar) interface. Some of the things I've seen written against the Google and Amazon services are impressive. I also find XML-RPC to be useful. How many different, unique yet similar ways do we need to encode requests and responses? XML makes sense to me for data description. Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. As I understand it, the transport protocol is interchangeable in most web services implementations. It also seems that many of your objections are being addressed in layers on top of SOAP. The AXIS and JBoss.Net APIs, for example, hide much of the implementation details. They are there if you need them, of course... As far as the performance issue is concerned, I only ask my systems to be fast enough, and no faster ;) . XML may be verbose, but it can also be compressed. I have seen a few articles about (compressed) binary encoding of XML streams -- I'm interested -- does anyone have any arguments against this? So, if CORBA is a Web Services framework, under the broad definition of Web Services, what makes it better? How should I compare? - Matt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dain Sundstrom Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right... It doesn't even have the concept of object identity, so it is even pre Corba. I figure they have about 5 years to catch up with what Corba has today. Of course, I think Corba will continue to die the slow death. -dain danch wrote: Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. Oh, by the way - Web Services also exposes a lot of the detail of the protocol to the programmer, just to really piss off the people who though writing then compiling IDL was a pain in the ass. Now, of course, you get to choose between compiling or generating the IDL, which is so chock full of fun little XML quirks as to be unreadable by normal humans anyway. Bah! The more that things change, the more they get worse. -danch Bill Burke wrote: What I've been saying all along... People have been building Web services under different names for 20 or 30 years, he explains. We've been building distributed systems for years out using CORBA and RMI and all of that. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development -- Dain Sundstrom Chief Architect JBossCMP JBoss Group, LLC --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
RE: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right...
Matt wrote: So, if CORBA is a Web Services framework, under the broad definition of Web Services, what makes it better? How should I compare? Take a look at http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=enlr=ie=UTF-8selm=2d3a5b34.0201081 700.548a508c%40posting.google.comrnum=21 Or, if the above is chopped up by your email client, try this http://tinyurl.com/1ofq -- Weiqi Gao [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
Re: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right...
Sorry if I made Corba sound great, because it sucks (that is another story). My beef with web services is that it will be a long time before it is a complete framework. Web services is 80% hype (that is what Gosling is bitching about). -dain Matt Munz wrote: Hi, I should probably know better to add to this discussion, but... I am unfamiliar with CORBA, and new to Web Services. Nonetheless, the type of web services (SOAP + UDDI) that we are looking at now seems useful to me. Since I think Web Services is useful, I'm of course interested in anything that may be better. For starters, the phrase Web Services makes little sense - might as well call it Buzzword^2. Web Services don't exist on the Web, and, under a sufficiently general definition, what is not a service? The more that things change, the more they get worse. Things are getting better for me. I used to get data from third parties via http posts html scraping. Now I have an API, standards, specifications -- a tool set that doesn't dissapear when I try to interact with someone else's (unique yet similar) interface. Some of the things I've seen written against the Google and Amazon services are impressive. I also find XML-RPC to be useful. How many different, unique yet similar ways do we need to encode requests and responses? XML makes sense to me for data description. Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. As I understand it, the transport protocol is interchangeable in most web services implementations. It also seems that many of your objections are being addressed in layers on top of SOAP. The AXIS and JBoss.Net APIs, for example, hide much of the implementation details. They are there if you need them, of course... As far as the performance issue is concerned, I only ask my systems to be fast enough, and no faster ;) . XML may be verbose, but it can also be compressed. I have seen a few articles about (compressed) binary encoding of XML streams -- I'm interested -- does anyone have any arguments against this? So, if CORBA is a Web Services framework, under the broad definition of Web Services, what makes it better? How should I compare? - Matt -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Dain Sundstrom Sent: Friday, September 27, 2002 8:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [JBoss-dev] Gosling has Web Services right... It doesn't even have the concept of object identity, so it is even pre Corba. I figure they have about 5 years to catch up with what Corba has today. Of course, I think Corba will continue to die the slow death. -dain danch wrote: Yup! 'Web Services' is just RPC running on an inefficient transport protocol running on an inefficient link protocol, with no mechanism for credential or transaction propogation, and 'best effort' levels of QOS. Oh, by the way - Web Services also exposes a lot of the detail of the protocol to the programmer, just to really piss off the people who though writing then compiling IDL was a pain in the ass. Now, of course, you get to choose between compiling or generating the IDL, which is so chock full of fun little XML quirks as to be unreadable by normal humans anyway. Bah! The more that things change, the more they get worse. -danch Bill Burke wrote: What I've been saying all along... People have been building Web services under different names for 20 or 30 years, he explains. We've been building distributed systems for years out using CORBA and RMI and all of that. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Jboss-development mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/jboss-development
