Re: appalled NJC
Lori: Great cartoon. There is nothing worse than a tort waiting to happen except those jackals (legalese for attorney) who bring the suit. Peace..Sharon "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > > Just for the sake of levity, this: http://www2.uclick.com/client/wpc/td/ > > Lori > in DC > ~ > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: appalled NJC
Just for the sake of levity, this: http://www2.uclick.com/client/wpc/td/ Lori in DC ~ Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: appalled NJC
Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > > > > > > > > Anyway Colin, here's a link to an editorial in > > today's Washington Post > > > that will give you hope for believing that not > > everyone in the U.S. > > > thinks the same, regarding crime and punishment: > > > > Thanks Lori-I went and read the article which is > > about a very ill > > paranoid schizophrenic who who the govt want to > > medicate so he can be > > tried and executed. I am lost for words. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A4290-2001Jul29.html > > > > > I just read that one too and, once again, I am > appalled. No matter how "sane" forced medication may > make him to stand trial, the fact remains that, if he > was psychotic at the time he did the crime, then he's > not guilty by reason of insanity. This isn't like > someone claiming the Twinky defence. If they want to > lock the guy up, they can put him in the forensic unit > of a psychiatric hospital, which is not a nice place > to be at all but where he won't be able to hurt anyone > else and, if things improve and medication and therapy > work and/or new treatments are found to make him truly > well again, he may one day regain his sanity and be > capable of repenting his crime. I agree with everything you wrote tho i don't think repent is the right word should he ever be well. If he gets well, yse he will ahve shit to deal with but he still wouldn't be responsible for his crime as he was sick at the time. That wouldn't stop him feeling regret of course, and it is not something I would like to live with. I certainly know that for me, I know of some things I did when in a manic phase whoch i regret but I don't beat myself up over it-I couldn't have done any different given y state of mind at the time. Thank God it wasn't anything really serious like murder. Funny, the murderous thoughts have only come to me since I have been well > > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- bw colin DAK,BRO GC, 950i 940,860,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > "Lori R. Fye" wrote: > > > > > Anyway Colin, here's a link to an editorial in > today's Washington Post > > that will give you hope for believing that not > everyone in the U.S. > > thinks the same, regarding crime and punishment: > > Thanks Lori-I went and read the article which is > about a very ill > paranoid schizophrenic who who the govt want to > medicate so he can be > tried and executed. I am lost for words. > > > > > > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A4290-2001Jul29.html > > I just read that one too and, once again, I am appalled. No matter how "sane" forced medication may make him to stand trial, the fact remains that, if he was psychotic at the time he did the crime, then he's not guilty by reason of insanity. This isn't like someone claiming the Twinky defence. If they want to lock the guy up, they can put him in the forensic unit of a psychiatric hospital, which is not a nice place to be at all but where he won't be able to hurt anyone else and, if things improve and medication and therapy work and/or new treatments are found to make him truly well again, he may one day regain his sanity and be capable of repenting his crime. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
"Lori R. Fye" wrote: > > Anyway Colin, here's a link to an editorial in today's Washington Post > that will give you hope for believing that not everyone in the U.S. > thinks the same, regarding crime and punishment: Thanks Lori-I went and read the article which is about a very ill paranoid schizophrenic who who the govt want to medicate so he can be tried and executed. I am lost for words. > > > http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A4290-2001Jul29.html > > Lori > in DC > ~ > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
I'm personally at loose ends over the 14-year-old's sentence. Surely his crime deserves punishment, but 28 years in prison will do nothing except turn him into a hardened criminal. Anyway Colin, here's a link to an editorial in today's Washington Post that will give you hope for believing that not everyone in the U.S. thinks the same, regarding crime and punishment: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/opinion/A4290-2001Jul29.html Lori in DC ~ Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: appalled NJC
> And I'm quite > sure, if he were a white kid, it wouldn't have ended > like this. so am I! He committed this dreadful act when he was 13. To try him as an adult is digusting. To put in jail for 28 years is wicked. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Subject: Re: appalled NJC
Bob wrote: ...I'm sorry -- but I have to look away from the media frenzy. I don't know whether or not this makes me a bad citizen of the global village, but I think it's healthy. Bob I so agree with you. I watch very little news because of this...I am appalled at the sensationalism of horrific crimes...& the strange & twisted way the media makes those people that commit crimes famous...case in point the Oklahoma City bombing...that guy did not deserve to have his name even mentioned... I too think we live in a world that is basically good in spite of the media world view. Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics www.polysonics.com Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Not from what i understood. I knew they had taken > him away from mall and near to > rail line where they hurled stones at him till he > died. I think the rest is > speculation. It cetrianly didn;'t appear that way on > the police interview tapes > which have been braodcast here in a program about > the boys. > > Whatever, the point I was making about these 2 boys > and the boy in your country > who shot his teacher, is that they are children and > as such should be treated as > such. Had any of these crimes been committted by > adults, thenyes, I quite agree > they should not be free again. Somehow I don't see the case of the boy who shot his teacher in the same light as the two boys who killed the toddler. Without knowing all the facts of either case, it seems to me the 14-yr old was acting out of rage and/or confusion - it sounds more like a crime of passion to me. when it comes to crimes of passion, I think I can understand these a bit more than the premeditated (?) murder of someone these kids didn't even know. The crime of passion scares the crap out of me, because I think "I could do something like that." So locking this kid away for 28 yrs without chance of parole is extremely harsh IMO. Maybe he did live a rough life, maybe he's a lot more disturbed than he seems to be, and he needs a lot of help, but I can't see prison providing this for him. And I'm quite sure, if he were a white kid, it wouldn't have ended like this. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 7/28/01 6:25:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > << the 'torture' as it has been described was simply the boys chucking stones > at this poor child. >> > > Wasn't the story a little more complex than that, Colin? > > I thought the boys planned this murder, then went to a shopping mall looking > for a victim, befriended the little boy, coaxed him away from his mother, > took him to a remote area, and then carried out their planned homicide. > Not from what i understood. I knew they had taken him away from mall and near to rail line where they hurled stones at him till he died. I think the rest is speculation. It cetrianly didn;'t appear that way on the police interview tapes which have been braodcast here in a program about the boys. Whatever, the point I was making about these 2 boys and the boy in your country who shot his teacher, is that they are children and as such should be treated as such. Had any of these crimes been committted by adults, thenyes, I quite agree they should not be free again.
Re: appalled NJC
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In a message dated 7/28/2001 12:59:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > How awful that people find it so easy to judge and condemn > others, even children, and just so sould destroying to have so little faith > and > hope and charity. > > I agree with you on this point, Colin, but I also know that often people with > emotional disturbances as children, that are then involved in overblown > situations (like the media blitz in this case) don't just "get better". It > takes a lot of work to get through the darkness. of course itdoes. > > > I think that you have to take into consideration what will be the best > situation for both society in general, as well as the boys, when > reintroducing them into society. Its not fair to us or them to launch them > unannounced back into the pool. and that is what is happening. I have laready said that they are having conitinued supervision and therapy etc.
Re: appalled NJC
In a message dated 7/28/01 6:25:16 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << the 'torture' as it has been described was simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child. >> Wasn't the story a little more complex than that, Colin? I thought the boys planned this murder, then went to a shopping mall looking for a victim, befriended the little boy, coaxed him away from his mother, took him to a remote area, and then carried out their planned homicide. I didn't follow this story closely, but I do seem to remember a premeditated aspect to it, which casts the murder in a different light than "simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child." And I think anyone would consider being stoned to death a form of torture, without the quotations. I am sure he screamed for mercy, like any victim of torture. My grasp of the facts in this case may be a bit fuzzy because I really try to avoid stories like this. Once upon a time, twenty or thirty years ago, this story would have remained in England, and the rest of us would have been blissfully unaware of it. But these days the media are all on alert for the next story they can sensationalize, the new scandal that can get their ratings up. And next thing you know, the story is constantly in your face. Anything to do with children and murder seems to sell very well, so we're fed a constant diet of that. Sure it's a very sad thing that Jon-Benet Ramsey was murdered in Colorado, but I don't want to hear any more about the case than the facts. And then I want move on. But the media likes to draw everyone in the world in to what would have once been a local story -- Did her mother do it? Or was it her father? Did they kill her together? Or was it her older brother? And what about those little-girl beauty pageants? In the end, we all end up thinking the world is going to hell because just as this story is growing stale, a fresh new horrific one pops up in Chipping Camden or Trenton or Sidney or wherever. Then we all get drawn in again, wring our hands, and wonder what's happening to our world, when the fact is that something awful happened in a faraway place, and our world is basically unchanged. It's not that I am immune from being drawn in to media sensationalism. I was glued to my TV for OJ's low-speed car chase and his trial. I was there for Princess Diana's funeral and all the tributes and commentary that followed. And you couldn't tear me away from the never-ending Clinton/Lewinsky story. But when it comes to children and murder, or grisly Jeffrey Dahmer-type stories, I'm sorry -- but I have to look away from the media frenzy. I don't know whether or not this makes me a bad citizen of the global village, but I think it's healthy. --Bob
Re: appalled NJC
In a message dated 7/28/2001 12:59:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: How awful that people find it so easy to judge and condemn others, even children, and just so sould destroying to have so little faith and hope and charity. I agree with you on this point, Colin, but I also know that often people with emotional disturbances as children, that are then involved in overblown situations (like the media blitz in this case) don't just "get better". It takes a lot of work to get through the darkness. I think that you have to take into consideration what will be the best situation for both society in general, as well as the boys, when reintroducing them into society. Its not fair to us or them to launch them unannounced back into the pool. And that is just my opinion, of course. Reuben
Re: appalled NJC
you have to bear in mind that they were 10 year olds and the 'torture' as it has been described was simply the boys chucking stones at this poor child. they stoned him to death. Wicked yes. This is just not the same as an adult committing this dreadful crime. Wally Kairuz wrote: > there's bad and then there's BAD! i don't have the answer for whether > prisons are the right way to address crime. but torturing and killing a > little child... that's not something that can be attributed simply to a > troubled youth. there must something monstrously wrong with anyone that > tortures and kills another person. maybe the killers cannot be understood by > the common mind and they must be separated forever from the rest of the > people they wounded so terribly. if they were really worthy of compassion > they themselves would request never to be released. i guess that i can't > analyze this case form a merely philosophical point of view. i'd better stop > here. > wallyK -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
RE: appalled NJC
there's bad and then there's BAD! i don't have the answer for whether prisons are the right way to address crime. but torturing and killing a little child... that's not something that can be attributed simply to a troubled youth. there must something monstrously wrong with anyone that tortures and kills another person. maybe the killers cannot be understood by the common mind and they must be separated forever from the rest of the people they wounded so terribly. if they were really worthy of compassion they themselves would request never to be released. i guess that i can't analyze this case form a merely philosophical point of view. i'd better stop here. wallyK
Re: appalled NJC
Catherine McKay wrote: > --- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > all the correspondence so far on this subject shows > > very little faith in human > > beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a > > bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who > > ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. > > Not necessarily, but sometimes you can't afford to > take the chance when there is a possibility of it > happening again. I agree in the case of adults. > I don't think they should be locked > up for life, but I would be keeping a very close eye > on them just the same. I am sure that is what is happening and think it ought be happening too. > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
Randy Remote wrote: > A few disjointed thoughts- > I find if odd that no one discussing this has expressed any > sympathy for the victim(s). because the victims weren't being discussed. I didn't think it necessry to state how appalled I felt about their fate. > They're dead. Pretty harsh penalty. > Also, the bit about society and abuse creating these types of > criminals is somewhat of a generalization, no it isn't but people like to think so. > in danger of becoming > coddling. Of course I am against abuse of children and recognise > the damage it does. I don't think you do and I don't think many people do. > But there are plenty of examples of children > with good upbringing that have turned out wrong. yes? Again, just a ploy used by those who refuse to accpet the obvious. > Sometimes > people are just plain bad, don't believe that. > and no amount of psychiatric evaluation > or rehabilitation can change it. that i think is true in cases of severe damage. > They get out and kill or rape again. > These people need to be isolated from society. I totally agree with that. Adults who commit crimes of child abuse, murder etc should NEVER be freed again. > > Conversely, there are many people who have suffered abuse in > their early lives, and have gotten past it to live productive lives. yes there are-I being one of them-but many many more end up dead, in lockled wards or in prison. > > > One more thing. It seems that alot of these school shootings > and violent behavior can be traced to 'behavior modification' > type drugs, Ritalin, Prozac, etc. Considering that the pharmaceutical > industry is the first or second largest industry, and considering their > methods of kicking back money and perks to doctors for > prescribing these often dangerous +/or unpredictable potions, > maybe they should be put on trial, too. too right! Pyschiatry and the drug companies have much to answer for. > > Then there's always alcohol, linked to something like 90% of violent > crimes (in adults anyway). yes tho alchol is often used as an excuse. men and women who sexually abuse often state they were 'drunk' and didn't know what they were doing. > > RR > ps Yesterday I heard the mother of the convicted 14 year old on > the radio saying "Just pray to God that you never find yourself > going through what I'm going through". I would think this statement includes the grief she feels at the death of the man. It also needs to be taken into account that she is probably in deep shock and unable to speak her thoughts as clearly as you like. Since we are not in her shoes,. we cannot judge or even beigin to imagine what she is feeling and going thru. It also needs to rememebred that her son was a 13 year old child when he did this awful thing and is still only a child. We have no way of knwoing whteher or not she is self centred tho people in pain usually are in just the same way as a person with tooh ache becomes tooth centred. However, there is no doubt that there was somnthing sevrely lacking in this boys upbringing. the reslut is very sad for everyone concerned. > True enough, and quite > possibly taken out of context, but what about what the victim's > family is going through? Is this a clue that might lead to the > self-centered attitude that this child was exposed to? > > colin wrote: > > > this should read 28 years. > > > > colin wrote: > > > > > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > > > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > > > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > > > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > > > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > > > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > > > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > > > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > > > child is a child. > > > > > > -- > > > bw > > > colin > > > BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > all the correspondence so far on this subject shows > very little faith in human > beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a > bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who > ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. Not necessarily, but sometimes you can't afford to take the chance when there is a possibility of it happening again. I don't think they should be locked up for life, but I would be keeping a very close eye on them just the same. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
A few disjointed thoughts- I find if odd that no one discussing this has expressed any sympathy for the victim(s). They're dead. Pretty harsh penalty. Also, the bit about society and abuse creating these types of criminals is somewhat of a generalization, in danger of becoming coddling. Of course I am against abuse of children and recognise the damage it does. But there are plenty of examples of children with good upbringing that have turned out wrong. Sometimes people are just plain bad, and no amount of psychiatric evaluation or rehabilitation can change it. They get out and kill or rape again. These people need to be isolated from society. Conversely, there are many people who have suffered abuse in their early lives, and have gotten past it to live productive lives. Some of them are real saints, trying to do good in the world. One more thing. It seems that alot of these school shootings and violent behavior can be traced to 'behavior modification' type drugs, Ritalin, Prozac, etc. Considering that the pharmaceutical industry is the first or second largest industry, and considering their methods of kicking back money and perks to doctors for prescribing these often dangerous +/or unpredictable potions, maybe they should be put on trial, too. Then there's always alcohol, linked to something like 90% of violent crimes (in adults anyway). RR ps Yesterday I heard the mother of the convicted 14 year old on the radio saying "Just pray to God that you never find yourself going through what I'm going through". True enough, and quite possibly taken out of context, but what about what the victim's family is going through? Is this a clue that might lead to the self-centered attitude that this child was exposed to? colin wrote: > this should read 28 years. > > colin wrote: > > > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > > child is a child. > > > > -- > > bw > > colin > > BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000
Re: appalled NJC
> Just to clarify: Colin do you think that they should be released they have been released. > and left > alone for ever and ever amen? no > They were children, disturbed children - and I > bet they're young men, disturbed young men today. we have no way of knowing but not according to those that were responsible for their threapy etc. > > Don't you think a little psyc. help would be a good idea since my stance on therapy is well know, I think you should know the answer to that one-of course continued therapy will help. I am sure they are getting it too. They can't just be released and left to get on with it. besides they ahev been given new id's etc > now that they're > able to throw stones again, and have been caged like animals for so long? they were not caged like animals-they were not in a prison. This partly why they have been released so that they do not become brutalised. > I > wonder if potentially you'd be worse after that... all the correspondence so far on this subject shows very little faith in human beings. It seems that everyone is saying that once a bda thing has been done, that is it, the person who ddi is bad thru and thru and beyond hope. That is sad beyond words and also goes a long way to explaining why we live in the sort of society we live in. How awful that people find it so easy to judge and condemn others, even children, and just so sould destroying to have so little faith and hope and charity. > > > Reuben -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
Don wrote: > In any case, I am hoping that the two boys in question > are never far from the sight of some mental health > care professional, public or private. Colin replied: >I doubt they will be. Imagine trying to make a life with new identities and >having to live with what they did as children, disturbed children. Just to clarify: Colin do you think that they should be released and left alone for ever and ever amen? They were children, disturbed children - and I bet they're young men, disturbed young men today. I don't think you get over something like this because they keep you on ice for a couple of years. Don't you think a little psyc. help would be a good idea now that they're able to throw stones again, and have been caged like animals for so long? I wonder if potentially you'd be worse after that... Reuben
Re: appalled NJC
In a message dated 28/07/01 12:15:51 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, > if only to try and > understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to > torture and kill a toddler. > I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire > case, including the > backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a > pretty disturbing > history) at this site: > > http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ > >> There is an excellent book on this subject too: "As If", by Blake Morrison. He was detailed to cover the trial of Venables and Thompson, and wrote a very thought-provoking book about it, highly recommended. Amongst many other distortions he highlights, he points out that even the victim's name was distorted by the press: his family called him James, whereas the diminutive "Jamie" was a tabloid invention, in its small way robbing that poor little boy of just one more piece of his dignity in an attempt to sentimentalise a story which was horrifying enough on its own merits. Azeem
Re: appalled NJC
--- hell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, > if only to try and > understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to > torture and kill a toddler. > I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire > case, including the > backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a > pretty disturbing > history) at this site: > > http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ > Thanks, Hell - I also try to understand this kind of thing. It bothers me a lot. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
> I suspect that this would be extremely difficult, if > not impossible, the younger the person - if a child's > mind is still learning, if his/her brain is still > immature, then the abuse they suffered will most > likely cause them permanent damage and they may never > become "whole" again. Which isn't to say that we > should give up on them, but unfortunately we're all > looking for a magic pill, and it just doesn't work > that way. yes, that is the case. It is extrememly difficult to undo the damage and in usch cases where the damage is so severe the child/person is unable to empathise, it may never be undone. bw colin > Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
Catherine wrote: > I have no doubt that the boys who killed Jamie must > have been extremely abused themselves, otherwise they > would not have been able to commit such a horrible > crime - and this wasn't a crime of passion, it was > premeditated and they had plenty of time to back out > of it, so we're not even talking about ordinary > children going too far. As far as I'm aware, none of > this was gone into in the media (at least not here) > and I expect this was because of the age of the > children involved - although we were told their names > and their ages, so *not* to talk about the fact that > they were abused makes no sense at all to me unless, > as you say, this was because "society" is shocked when > this kind of thing happens and would prefer to see > this type of criminal as monsters. And monsters they > are, but most likely were not born - unless we're > talking about some type of brain damage, kind of > unlikely given there were two boys from two different > families. And their parents were likely abused and so > on; and likely these two boys had tortured animals > before moving onto a human child. I have followed the Jamie Bulger case in some depth, if only to try and understand what would compel two 11-year-olds to torture and kill a toddler. I've found an extremely good write-up of the entire case, including the backgrounds of each of the boys (one of them had a pretty disturbing history) at this site: http://www.crimelibrary.com/classics3/bulger/ The Crime Library site has fascinating articles on all manner of crimes throughout history, eg. John Wayne Gacy, Dennis Nilsen, Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. It's not really for the squeamish - they've included crime photos in a lot of the articles, even photographs of Jack the Ripper's murder victims! But the stories are very well-researched, and if you have an interest in this sort of thing then I can highly recommend the site. They also have a "daily update" section, which has links to recent events. Hell - not disturbed herself, just fascinated in the psychology behind these people, and now realising she should have followed her "dream" of becoming a forensic pathologist, instead of a boring systems analyst, despite the 13 years of study required! "To have great poets, there must be great audiences too." - Walt Whitman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hell's Personal Photo Page: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~hell/main/personal.htm Visit the NBLs (Natural Born Losers) at: http://www.nbls.co.nz
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I'm not saying that "the system" is to blame for > these > > kinds of events. > > of course it is 'the system' as you call it. > Actually, it is us, you and > me and evryone else. Society. > > Empathy is something one has when one is brought up > with love and > respect. Sociaopath is a meaningless label used to > make people feel > better and take the blame away from society. > Severely damaged people are > unable to empathise. They get that way because they > are damaged BY other > people, adults. a lot of very educated sounding > nonsense is spoken and > written about these problems. the answer is really > simple;children need > to be loved and respected not just by their > parents/family but by > society as a whole. I have no doubt that the boys who killed Jamie must have been extremely abused themselves, otherwise they would not have been able to commit such a horrible crime - and this wasn't a crime of passion, it was premeditated and they had plenty of time to back out of it, so we're not even talking about ordinary children going too far. As far as I'm aware, none of this was gone into in the media (at least not here) and I expect this was because of the age of the children involved - although we were told their names and their ages, so *not* to talk about the fact that they were abused makes no sense at all to me unless, as you say, this was because "society" is shocked when this kind of thing happens and would prefer to see this type of criminal as monsters. And monsters they are, but most likely were not born - unless we're talking about some type of brain damage, kind of unlikely given there were two boys from two different families. And their parents were likely abused and so on; and likely these two boys had tortured animals before moving onto a human child. Some people can undergo traumatic events and may become hardened and unfeeling - but, in a situation such as a war, where they must become this way in order to simply survive, once the traumatic event is over, some people can return to "normal" and can feel and emphathize again. I suspect that this would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, the younger the person - if a child's mind is still learning, if his/her brain is still immature, then the abuse they suffered will most likely cause them permanent damage and they may never become "whole" again. Which isn't to say that we should give up on them, but unfortunately we're all looking for a magic pill, and it just doesn't work that way. Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
In a message dated 7/27/01 7:54:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: << of course it is 'the system' as you call it. Actually, it is us, you and me and evryone else. Society. Empathy is something one has when one is brought up with love and respect. Sociaopath is a meaningless label used to make people feel better and take the blame away from society. Severely damaged people are unable to empathise. They get that way because they are damaged BY other people, adults. a lot of very educated sounding nonsense is spoken and written about these problems. the answer is really simple;children need to be loved and respected not just by their parents/family but by society as a whole. Society needs to get it's head out of it's arse and take responsibility for the world we live in and the world we offer our children. But it won't. It wants to be able to buy it's goods cheaply and doesn't give a toss that those goods are made by child slaves who are barely paid. Society wants to sleep soundly at night, with plugs in it's ears so as not to hear what might be going on next door. No one wants to think about what might be happeneing to little Johnny, doesn't wnat to wonder why there is blood in his stoools, or bruises on his body or why he beahves so oddly. No one gave a toss about the boys who killed James Bulger until they did what they did. And now they want them dead so they don't have to face their own guilt. Most people express horror at child abuse but as far as I can tell it is all talk and noises just made to make themselves feel better. The child abuse goes on under our noses and we turn the other way. Or we label disturbed children as having some disorder and fill them with drugs. So much easier than loving them. so much easier to believe they have some brain malfunction rather than to accept that something has gone seriously wrong in their upbringing and that the adults around them are responsible for it. Adults hide from painful truths, the children pay for it. Any child dare to bring it to their attention, and they are destroyed. It takes an adult to face their responsibilites and to learn and cahnge. trouble is most of us are children just pretending to be adults. The list is ample evidence of that. I don't mean that unkindly at all. The wars we have, the sniping, the acting out...and we think we know! >> I agree with you.There's a lot of cruelty in this world, and in our hearts. Adults who you would think are mature and should no better-sometimes don't.and the children pay the price like you said...and yes I speak from experiance.but thank god I can talk about it with my therapist.
Re: appalled NJC
> I'm not saying that "the system" is to blame for these > kinds of events. of course it is 'the system' as you call it. Actually, it is us, you and me and evryone else. Society. Empathy is something one has when one is brought up with love and respect. Sociaopath is a meaningless label used to make people feel better and take the blame away from society. Severely damaged people are unable to empathise. They get that way because they are damaged BY other people, adults. a lot of very educated sounding nonsense is spoken and written about these problems. the answer is really simple;children need to be loved and respected not just by their parents/family but by society as a whole. Society needs to get it's head out of it's arse and take responsibility for the world we live in and the world we offer our children. But it won't. It wants to be able to buy it's goods cheaply and doesn't give a toss that those goods are made by child slaves who are barely paid. Society wants to sleep soundly at night, with plugs in it's ears so as not to hear what might be going on next door. No one wants to think about what might be happeneing to little Johnny, doesn't wnat to wonder why there is blood in his stoools, or bruises on his body or why he beahves so oddly. No one gave a toss about the boys who killed James Bulger until they did what they did. And now they want them dead so they don't have to face their own guilt. Most people express horror at child abuse but as far as I can tell it is all talk and noises just made to make themselves feel better. The child abuse goes on under our noses and we turn the other way. Or we label disturbed children as having some disorder and fill them with drugs. So much easier than loving them. so much easier to believe they have some brain malfunction rather than to accept that something has gone seriously wrong in their upbringing and that the adults around them are responsible for it. Adults hide from painful truths, the children pay for it. Any child dare to bring it to their attention, and they are destroyed. It takes an adult to face their responsibilites and to learn and cahnge. trouble is most of us are children just pretending to be adults. The list is ample evidence of that. I don't mean that unkindly at all. The wars we have, the sniping, the acting out...and we think we know!
Re: appalled NJC
Don Rowe wrote: > --- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > what else was supposed to happen to them? (the two > young men recently released after having stoned a > toddler to death) > > In an IDEAL world, a period of supervised psychiatric > counseling and evaluation, coupled with a program that > would have gradually re-introduced & re-integrated > them into the community, in such capacity as their > progress and continuing prognosis dictated. this is what happened. > > > Of course, the media attention to the case, and the > underlying public bloodlust the public bloodlust was hsameful > probably would have > rendered such a solution virtually impossible, even if > it existed institutionally (which I'm assuming it does > not). see above > > > In any case, I am hoping that the two boys in question > are never far from the sight of some mental health > care professional, public or private. I doubt they will be. Imagine trying to make a life with new identies and having to live with what they did as children, disturbed children. > > > Don Rowe > > = > Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
--- Don Rowe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > what else was supposed to happen to them? (the two > young men recently released after having stoned a > toddler to death) > > In an IDEAL world, a period of supervised > psychiatric > counseling and evaluation, coupled with a program > that > would have gradually re-introduced & re-integrated > them into the community, in such capacity as their > progress and continuing prognosis dictated. > ... > > In any case, I am hoping that the two boys in > question > are never far from the sight of some mental health > care professional, public or private. > Amen to that. The penal system, no matter what country it is in, and no matter how well its intentions start off, does very little to rehabilitate anyone. By its very nature, it can't - too many bad, tough people in with too many other bad, tough people. There may be those few people who have been incarcerated who may be shocked into behaving themselves but for most, the whole system becomes a vicious circle. Some crimes shouldn't be punishable by prison but by community service of some kind. But, for the most part, I can't think of any alternative for those who commit violent crimes. In the case of the two boys in Britain, I sincerely hope that they received major counselling the whole time they were in prison and that a condition of their release be continued therapy and constant monitoring. I have no idea whether what they did could have been a form of temporary insansity or whether they're complete sociopaths and I'm inclined to go with the sociopath version, in which case they will require constant and vigilant monitoring for the rest of their lives. All that aside, there is a terrible inequity in the number of non-white people who are sentenced to prison compared to their numbers in the population at large. (If ten per cent of the population of the U.S., for example, is black, then you would expect the prison population to be 10% as well). Something must be done from the very beginning to ensure that people who are born in poverty are not condemned to stay that way because of the colour of their skin, or the language they speak, of because they lack the financial means to get out of the cycle. School systems are supposed to treat everyone equally but it is a fact here in Canada, as it is in the U.S., as I'm sure it is in Britain, that if you live in a well-off neighbourhood, your school will be better equipped, have better and newer books and so on - and yet, schools are all supposed to be funded by the taxpayers' money. (Except that Mr Rich Guy whose kids attend the Rich Neighbourhood School has the money to buy little extras for his kids' school). Many of us despair because we want change to happen overnight (wouldn't that be something?) and, as a result, many people just give up and don't try to make the system work more fairly. It's difficult to see a light at the end of the tunnel. I'm not saying that "the system" is to blame for these kinds of events. Ultimately people of sound mind are responsible for their own actions and make their own choices. There are several reasons why people DON'T commit crimes - one is, they don't want to be caught and punished - even a sociopath can figure that one out; better than the idea of avoiding punishment is that people empathize with others. I won't hurt you, because I wouldn't want to be hurt either, or because I know that hurting you also hurts me. But humans are weak and if they don't see results right away, they're right back to the old ways. People need to look at themselves as part of a community, rather than as individuals out to grab the most toys. If we who have a little more do something to help the kid in the poor neighbourhood, then maybe we'll have a productive citizen who can bring something fresh and new into our lives and the lives of others - a person who will go out and do the same for other people. At this point, I've lost sight of what my point is and must go to pick up daughter who comes home from camp tonight - I haven't seen her for two whole weeks! I wonder if she has grown? No man, or woman, is an island. And so my sermon ends with a . Get your free @yahoo.ca address at http://mail.yahoo.ca
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > what else was supposed to happen to them? (the two young men recently released after having stoned a toddler to death) In an IDEAL world, a period of supervised psychiatric counseling and evaluation, coupled with a program that would have gradually re-introduced & re-integrated them into the community, in such capacity as their progress and continuing prognosis dictated. Of course, the media attention to the case, and the underlying public bloodlust probably would have rendered such a solution virtually impossible, even if it existed institutionally (which I'm assuming it does not). In any case, I am hoping that the two boys in question are never far from the sight of some mental health care professional, public or private. Don Rowe = Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: appalled NJC
> You and I may not agree with it ... but it's the way > things have, somewhat sadly, become. too true. and regarding the 2 ten year olds who thrwe sti=ones at and killed little Jamie Bulger, of coursre they have been realeased. what else was supposed to happen to tehm? Hanged like like many morons suggested? Locked up for life like other morons suggested? if adults were adult and behaved responsibly and respectfully toward children, we wouldn't be having these crimes,. We reap what we sow. > > > Don Rowe > > > > = > Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
Jerry Notaro wrote: > colin wrote: > > > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > > child is a child. > > Correction Colin. It's 28 years. duh! I corrected myself for the typo. And what it is for is niether hear nor their we are talking about a child. This is a wicked way to ttreat a child. > And that is for 2 crimes, murder and > deadly assault. > > Jerry, excited about seeing Nancy Griffith tomorrow -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
Re: appalled NJC
--- colin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I really do not undertsand the American legal > system. > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he > committed as a 13 > year old. Trust me when I say that we here in America do not fully comprehend the CURRENT British legal system either ... the one where 2 juveniles who tortured a toddler to death are released on their 18th birthday -- for no apparent other reason than their having lived long enough to suit the legal statute. What we much prefer, and have largely copied, was Britian's own Imperial justice system. Something about it's Draconian nature appealed to the Puritan spirit in us. We've put people in stocks for public ridicule. Insisted for the majority of our history as an independent nation, not only on capital punishment, but public execution. These are just a few of the trappings which were informed by British monarchical rule -- not to mention it's traditions of extended incarceration for petty offenses. What we've recently added to this Medieval mix was the notion that an "adult action must proceed from an adult consciousness." Once you accept this fundamental premise, it's quite a simple matter to treat a 13-year-old murderer as if he/she were a fully developed adult. You and I may not agree with it ... but it's the way things have, somewhat sadly, become. Don Rowe = Visit me anytime at http://www.mp3.com/donrowe Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
Re: appalled NJC
colin wrote: > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > child is a child. Correction Colin. It's 28 years. And that is for 2 crimes, murder and deadly assault. Jerry, excited about seeing Nancy Griffith tomorrow
Re: appalled NJC
this should read 28 years. colin wrote: > I really do not undertsand the American legal system. > A 14 year old was tried as an adult for a crime he committed as a 13 > year old. The crime was murder and and appaling, dreadful crime murder > is. However, it is also just so outrageoues that a child should be > treated this way. He has been senteneced to 298 years in prison. It is > no surprise that this child is black. How can a child be treated like an > adult? Where is the justice? Human beings make me so ashamed sometimes. > There is no way this piece of barbarity can be justified. a child is a > child is a child. > > -- > bw > colin > BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 > Duo80 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://www.tantra-apso.com -- bw colin BRO GC, 950i 940,864, 260, 890,Silver 830 and 270, Passap 6000 Duo80 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.tantra-apso.com
