Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Hi! On 17/12/11 21:48, Mike N wrote: On 12/17/2011 9:49 AM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: I see not that we need a big modification here. Maybe an update of the wording could be done, so that people do not automatically assume new is better. That is a good idea. And since people don't realize that the new version effectively puts their work into hiding until *possibly* later data consumers decide to use the new tags, the new version should create both new and old style tags. Let's resolve this naming confusion. I'd rename the common/old scheme to Contact (common schema) to clarify the relation. Any comments/objections? Regards, Simon ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: There is a sad story behind this. From day one, presets were designed to be distributed. It was never the plan to have one central set of presets that the JOSM team would maintain and everyone would follow that. The idea was that interested users could make their own presets, and share them with others. Look I've got this cool preset for waterway mapping, just add URL X to your config and you can use that! Actually I think you mix up your timeline here. The external presets came much later, you can't really count the simple load a file method of early implementation, as only a few experts knew how to use this. That system was set up with the best intentions, and it continues to function today - but nobody is actually interested in using it! Everybody just wants the one, central, official group of presets and that's it. We do have a handful of extra presets contributed by users but even those are hardly ever used. I would have already dropped a lot of internal preset parts and moved them to external presets, but I know what comments I would get from all sides when I really do that. This is sad; it would be so much better if there was a culture in OSM where people would mix and match, where they would say I think Pieren is a good guy, therefore I'll use his presets, plus the special set of model airplane tagging presets from user HobbyFlyer3000. But we can't do more than offer this - if people don't make use of it, then what can we do? The web-page sourced presets already improved the situation a lot. More and more presets and styles are showing up and are also modified and updated by others (and again one of the tasks I was blamed a lot for, even from your side). What we can do is improve integration of this stuff in JOSM if we find ways to do so. It is still hidden too deep in the preferences. Working together with the autors of other editors also would be a good idea, but until today all such tries failed miserably. Frederik Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive ATM, but on one hand you blame me that JOSM depends too much on the server information and on the other hand you praise exactly these feature and would like to have them extended? Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On 18/12/2011 13:46, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Working together with the autors of other editors also would be a good idea, but until today all such tries failed miserably. I suspect what this needs is for one person to just go ahead and implement something, and for the other editor coders to see what they've done -- similar to how MapCSS got adopted. J. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Dirk, On 12/18/2011 02:46 PM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: Maybe I'm a bit over-sensitive ATM, but on one hand you blame me that JOSM depends too much on the server information and on the other hand you praise exactly these feature and would like to have them extended? What I like is when this works in a peer-to-peer fashion. Someone posts on the mailing list here's my cool new preset, reader clicks a button and loads it - from the author's server. No central server required. What I don't like is when somebody who makes a new style has to upload the style to a central location or publish the link at a certain official location. But I admit that this is a kind of romantic view because it assumes that everyone easily has a server available where they could publish their styles, and that information about available styles flows freely without the need for a central directory. Both are a tad unrealistic. In my ideal world, there would be many competing styles - basically every power user would have his style, containing only the tags he always uses, and other people could then choose to go with that person's style. What we currently have is users expecting there to be the one true style provided by the JOSM team. And I wasn't even criticising you, I just said that what I would like to see seems to be different from what the users want. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On 18/12/2011 15:12, Frederik Ramm wrote: But I admit that this is a kind of romantic view because it assumes that everyone easily has a server available where they could publish their styles, Github FTW. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Hi, On 12/18/2011 04:59 PM, Jonathan Bennett wrote: But I admit that this is a kind of romantic view because it assumes that everyone easily has a server available where they could publish their styles, Github FTW. Yeah, I'm sure if one was desperate one could also publish via Facebook or Google+. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, Frederik Ramm wrote: But I admit that this is a kind of romantic view because it assumes that everyone easily has a server available where they could publish their styles, and that information about available styles flows freely without the need for a central directory. Both are a tad unrealistic. It is. I did not implement the Wiki-page presets/styles because I think everything should be server centric. But because people want it that way. We did setup the style/preset pages to link to external styles. But there where not used this way. People attached files directly to the page and then linked to it and the wiki methods are only the natural result of this (which I BTW implemented only after I refused it several times). Only a few files are really external. So most people probably don't share your decentral opinion. On the other hand we get bug reports for everything concerning JOSM and for truly external stuff we can't fix the problems. Most things become abandoned after a short time (have a look how many plugins are actually assigned to the no-person team) and the stuff in our influence at least survives this point. What we currently have is users expecting there to be the one true style provided by the JOSM team. That is a problem and I'm aware of it since the very beginning. That's why I improved the whole server handling to the point we have now. But I can't (and don't want to) change the people. If they want the one JOSM preset, then they should get the best we can provide and I think we did a pretty good job till now. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Hi! On 15/12/11 11:44, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: When was this decided? I've added the new contact scheme (new according to the Wiki) to the JOSM presets. There has been an open bug [1] in Trac for several months without any objections. The reasons have been: - contact:* is being used quite frequently [2] (we have presets for far less common tags) - contact:* is documented in the Wiki without any comments on controversial discussion nor with a note of being dead The JOSM presets are not made for discussing the reasonableness of tags. Typically, requests of extending presets are fulfilled unless the tag is irrelevant (according to statistics) or is very specific or the usage of the tag is disputed (according to the Wiki). One could clarify the presets by renaming the old contact preset to Contact (Common scheme) or similar. For further discussion, I suggest to use the ticket [1]. Cheers, Simon [1] http://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/6461 [2] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=contact%3A#keys ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
so by no means should we blindly take for gospel what the Wiki says. but the JOSM presets, yes... Pieren ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On Sat, 17 Dec 2011, Pieren wrote: so by no means should we blindly take for gospel what the Wiki says. but the JOSM presets, yes... That is and was always a critical situation. But the preset was added as alternative to the included stuff and did not replace it. I think it was correct how Simon did this. JOSM presets influence the user one way or the other, as they are coupled with the validator. So when we add stuff we make a commitment as well as when we don't add stuff. I see not that we need a big modification here. Maybe an update of the wording could be done, so that people do not automatically assume new is better. Ciao -- http://www.dstoecker.eu/ (PGP key available) ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Hi, On 12/17/2011 03:40 PM, Pieren wrote: so by no means should we blindly take for gospel what the Wiki says. but the JOSM presets, yes... There is a sad story behind this. From day one, presets were designed to be distributed. It was never the plan to have one central set of presets that the JOSM team would maintain and everyone would follow that. The idea was that interested users could make their own presets, and share them with others. Look I've got this cool preset for waterway mapping, just add URL X to your config and you can use that! That system was set up with the best intentions, and it continues to function today - but nobody is actually interested in using it! Everybody just wants the one, central, official group of presets and that's it. We do have a handful of extra presets contributed by users but even those are hardly ever used. This is sad; it would be so much better if there was a culture in OSM where people would mix and match, where they would say I think Pieren is a good guy, therefore I'll use his presets, plus the special set of model airplane tagging presets from user HobbyFlyer3000. But we can't do more than offer this - if people don't make use of it, then what can we do? Maybe we should have a remote control functionality that adds presets. Then people could have cool web pages with an add me to JOSM! button and if you click on that, the preset is loaded ;) but I think even that is going to be little used. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On 12/17/2011 9:49 AM, Dirk Stöcker wrote: I see not that we need a big modification here. Maybe an update of the wording could be done, so that people do not automatically assume new is better. That is a good idea. And since people don't realize that the new version effectively puts their work into hiding until *possibly* later data consumers decide to use the new tags, the new version should create both new and old style tags. On 12/17/2011 3:30 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: Everybody just wants the one, central, official group of presets and that's it. Mostly because it's impractical to run your own instance of Tagwatch and run a full geospatial and regional analysis of similar tags every time something new comes up. It's much easier to choose from the presets which have a good chance of someone actually using your work. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
[josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
Recently the JOSM presets changed for fax, phone, website, email (old keys) to contact:fax, ... When was this decided? IMHO website is not even a contact-information in the first place, and looking at actual usage numbers: 208 408 website 7 116 contact:website it seems strange to me that this was changed. cheers, Martin ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
Re: [josm-dev] Changed presets, contact
On 12/15/2011 5:44 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: Recently the JOSM presets changed for fax, phone, website, email (old keys) to contact:fax, ... When was this decided? IMHO website is not even a contact-information in the first place, and looking at actual usage numbers: 208 408 website 7 116 contact:website it seems strange to me that this was changed. The latest code seems to have 'contact', and 'contact (New schema)' as a choice.I would hope that we don't change all presets to the new schema without some major research first - I see that Restaurant for example still uses the regular schema. The Wiki sounds authoritative that the new schema is official and the old one is deprecated. I used the new schema for a while until I discovered that virtually NONE of the data consumers recognize the new schema. Data Consumer is an iPhone app where you call up the POI and click on the phone number or web site to contact them (and that to me, makes contact:website a legitimate contact).I've since converted all my data to the previous, popular tagging since that's the only way it is of any use to anyone. ___ josm-dev mailing list josm-dev@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/josm-dev
