Re: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 03:47 PM, Tim Colson wrote: I would like to offer a presentation for December's topic covering Object-Relational mapping tools. An emphatic +1 :-) Some of the tools I would be reviewing will be: Castor (castor.exolab.org) Hibernate (http://hibernate.sourceforge.net/) Torque (jakarta.apache.org/turbine/torque) OJB (jakarta.apache.org/ojb) TJDO (http://tjdo.sourceforge.net/) I'm most interested in Hibernate and TJDO personally, but might be worth adding this project to just the comparison grid: jRelationalFramework version 2.0 http://jrf.sourceforge.net/ The author of SimpleORM has this document that might be a good starting point for some comparisons: http://www.uq.net.au/~zzabergl/simpleorm/ORMTools.html Cool, thanks! Personally I think that this is more than enough to review in an hour, Agree. Perhaps on the list there are other folks who have intimate experience with one or more of these technologies already? Could split things up to multiple folks, but work on the same example scenario? That's the idea ;-). I personally am intimately familiar with Torque, although I haven't played with any of it's higher-level functions (they have a large-select function for dealing with large record-sets). If this is selected as the next topic. I would like some specific questions asked now, so I can prepare the answers for the presentation. 1) Is it easy to use? 2) Is it easy to use? ;-) 3) Does it impose any constraints on the DB design? (or conversely, will it work with a schema that you didn't design, wouldn't have designed, and was just plain designed by a raving lunatic...but now can't be changed?) 4) Does it adapt well to changes in schema? 5) Does it have cacheing built in? 6) How query-intensive is it? (i.e. how many queries does it take to restore a listed of objects that have nested objects) Great questions, thanks! -warner Looking forward to this! Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] Sun will trademark anything
I just got the latest Java Developer Connection in my mail box and noticed this: Read about the next evolution of the Java Community ProcessSM (JCPSM), version 2.5. (October 31, 2002) For those of you who don't know SM - stands for Service Mark. Now why in the world would Sun put a service mark on this? So that others can't use Java Community Process - Yeah no one else has something that can even be considered a Java Community Process. Uggh, next they'll patent the process, cuz no one else has done this type of stuff before! -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
Warner says: I'd prefer not to [cover EJB/CMP] for a few reasons: 1) While I know that it is a kind of O/R it is not the kind I am interested in at the moment What kind are you interested in? 2) It isn't standalone - it requires an EJB container Point taken, but every framework requires something be it build tools or classes to install in your app. In the case of Resin CMP we only use the O/R mapping part--hardly anything else. 3) I don't have an intimate knowledge of EJB Would anyone like to volunteer instead? Rick Hightower? 4) EJB can be an hour long all on it's own Of course. Surely the subtleties of any of these frameworks would merit an hour at least. The idea would be to cover it side by side with the other persistence frameworks *as a persistence framework* and focus on how it can be used as such and how it stacks up against the others. Cheers, Nick __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 06:14 PM, Lesiecki Nicholas wrote: Warner says: I'd prefer not to [cover EJB/CMP] for a few reasons: 1) While I know that it is a kind of O/R it is not the kind I am interested in at the moment What kind are you interested in? Well, I personally have some issues with EJB ;-). If I saw a good presentation on it maybe I'd change my mind. But I have problems with any framework that requires me to create multiple files just in order to get some data from a database as an object. Make it easy for me to do it and I might be interested. But I also like a light-weight approach in regards to containers - I know servlets and I know servlet containers, I don't want to have to learn how to configure JBoss just to use EJB's. 2) It isn't standalone - it requires an EJB container Point taken, but every framework requires something be it build tools or classes to install in your app. In the case of Resin CMP we only use the O/R mapping part--hardly anything else. See above. 3) I don't have an intimate knowledge of EJB Would anyone like to volunteer instead? Rick Hightower? I would gladly develop the framework and have others contribute pieces to it. 4) EJB can be an hour long all on it's own Of course. Surely the subtleties of any of these frameworks would merit an hour at least. The idea would be to cover it side by side with the other persistence frameworks *as a persistence framework* and focus on how it can be used as such and how it stacks up against the others. Sounds good. -warner Cheers, Nick __ Do you Yahoo!? U2 on LAUNCH - Exclusive greatest hits videos http://launch.yahoo.com/u2 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Sun will trademark anything
A, someone from Sun on the list (hides head in shame ;-). On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 06:16 PM, Rob Gingell wrote: For those of you who don't know SM - stands for Service Mark. Now why in the world would Sun put a service mark on this? Because it embeds a trademark. Yeah, I realized that shortly after sending the message. Thank the lawyers -- both the ones that are overly protective but of course also the ones who defend clients who abuse trademarks when you don't dot every i and cross every t. We certainly don't do it because we like it, it's a considerable pain to deal with, but trademark and branding law requires you be diligent in everyday actions to have standing to defend it. Yeah, I know too much about Copyright, Trademark and Service Mark than I should (for not being a lawyer ;-). Uggh, next they'll patent the process, cuz no one else has done this type of stuff before! No, it hasn't/isn't being patented. Thank goodness. That said, I don't know of any other (active) binary standard in the industry. When you say binary, what exactly do you mean here? Just FYI, you can patent a business process - it doesn't have to be a program, it can be an idea of how to do something that no one (and this means no one who has patented it before) has thought of before. They have a prior art rule, however I haven't seen this enforced greatly at the USPTO. I'd forward the note to the lawyers to give them a chuckle but fear that they might observe that community isn't really trademarked yet...or worse, take the patenting thing seriously :-). Please don't ;-). -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
Well, [Warner] personally have some issues with EJB ;-). If I saw a good presentation on it maybe I'd change my mind. I agree with you, especially with the 1.1 spec, but I did see a compelling preso on 2.x last year at JavaOne...Tyler Jewell from BEA gave a talk on EJB 2.x and fired me up to want to use 2.0, but I'm limited by the availability of the tech in my environment, along with a lurking fear of the learning curve to deploy something simple. TS-3043 Why Enterprise JavaBeansTM ( EJBTM) 2.X Technology --Stuff That You Have Never Seen http://servlet.java.sun.com/javaone/sf2002/conf/sessions/20-all-regular. en.jsp Make it easy for me to do it and I might be interested. Amen, brotherman. :-) Nick ( or anyone else ) have you worked with EJB 2.x stuff? Cheers, Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Sun will trademark anything
Warner Onstine wrote: A, someone from Sun on the list (hides head in shame ;-). Apologies for the sneak attack -- no way anyone could know I lurk here. And, we all find Dilbert funny for a reason -- companies and organizations do sometimes do things that at least look silly even if in fact they aren't (though of course, sometimes they are too -- which is why the letter was circulated a few years ago that was ostensibly from Sun telling the island of Java that it had to change its name and which we all found funny.) [No, Sun never wrote such a letter. It did and does write other letters in protecting the Java trademark, which is why the fake letter was funny instead of nonsensical -- there was an underlying truth it played on.] Yeah, I know too much about Copyright, Trademark and Service Mark than I should (for not being a lawyer ;-). The legal system forces us all to know more about these things and patents than anyone should have to. That said, I don't know of any other (active) binary standard in the industry. When you say binary, what exactly do you mean here? A standard that covers products, rather than the technologies that comprise products. UNIX, for example (or its relatives, POSIX) is a source standard, describing the standardization of the technology that comprises a product claiming to be a UNIX implementation. The UNIX standard doesn't say anything about the products yielded from it, e.g., Solaris, which is a projection of the UNIX standard into a product space that is unique to the SPARC/Solaris combination (or PA-RISC/HP-UX for HP, RS*/AIX for IBM, etc.) Having a program being UNIX portable is not sufficient for there to be a product (i.e., a binary) that runs on all UNIXs. The best you can do is have a set of source code that the development environment for a given UNIX system can transform into a product for that system. Portable technology (source code), not portable products (executables). The Java space of course includes source programming, but most importantly talks about the product realization of it. It's why the term WORA, while not perfectly technically accurate, is nonetheless fairly compelling to people -- one Java .class file does generally run on all things claiming to implement Java. It's why there's 3M+ Java developers in a relatively short period but (probably) less than 1M developers for UNIX 30 years on. Java's really covering two distinct things -- the binary standard (JVM, class files) and also a set of expressions of how those are used in the form of the Java language and evolving set of class definitions. Just FYI, you can patent a business process - it doesn't have to be a program, it can be an idea of how to do something that no one (and this means no one who has patented it before) has thought of before. They have a prior art rule, however I haven't seen this enforced greatly at the USPTO. You're right, and in theory the JCP contains elements that might have been patentable at one time, but many of them descend from earlier atttempts at creating and managing binary standards and so have been long ago publicly disclosed (and thus their eligibility for patent protection has lapsed.) A few of them were unique to the JCP but we'd be more interested in seeing other groups steal and use them rather than keeping them unique. As it happens, Sun was involved in creating some of those elements but although we may trademark everything we don't patent everything :-). - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
See more below: --- Warner Onstine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 06:14 PM, Lesiecki Nicholas wrote: Warner says: I'd prefer not to [cover EJB/CMP] for a few reasons: 1) While I know that it is a kind of O/R it is not the kind I am interested in at the moment What kind are you interested in? Well, I personally have some issues with EJB ;-). If I saw a good presentation on it maybe I'd change my mind. But I have problems with any framework that requires me to create multiple files just in order to get some data from a database as an object. You have a point. That's why I want to see EJB covered. Everyone I talk to says EJB sucks. We use it and it doesn't seem so bad. (Back me up Rick, Andy). But I'm always interested in another better idea. So I want to see it compared side by side to other frameworks so that I can make up my mind a little better. Make it easy for me to do it and I might be interested. But I also like a light-weight approach in regards to containers - I know servlets and I know servlet containers, I don't want to have to learn how to configure JBoss just to use EJB's. From my cursory look at Torque and Hibernate I say the exact same thing: I don't want to have to configure this tool just to get my persistence. But we're debating before the presentation! [...snip...] I would gladly develop the framework and have others contribute pieces to it. Gosh, when's the next meeting? After all my bitching I should probably attend and present. But my schedule has allowed no free evenings for the last two months...sigh. Cheers, nick __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
Nick ( or anyone else ) have you worked with EJB 2.x stuff? Yep, it's all we use at eBlox. We use Resin as our EJB and servlet container and it has served us very well. The crucial savings comes through the use of CMR and EJB-QL. We use local entity beans so performance hasn't been an issue for us. (Resin also does simple read caching). Rick Hightower (JUG member and esteemed colleague) has written several Tutorials on EJB 2.X/CMP. You can find an index of them here: http://www.rickhightower.com/ejbcmpcmrtut.html There's one specific to Resin at: http://java-tools.eblox.com/index.php?ResinCMPCMRXDocletTutorial Cheers, Nick __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re[2]: [jug-discussion] [dec presentation] survey of O/R tools
Wednesday, November 13, 2002, 6:14:23 PM, you wrote: 3) I don't have an intimate knowledge of EJB LN Would anyone like to volunteer instead? Rick Hightower? I'd be happy to represent EJB in a comparison of different O/R tools. We're using it very successfully and are very productive with it. Believe me, we have no room for any inefficiency at eBlox (ask anyone who has worked at eBlox or who has done a project with us and they will confirm this fact). With EJB 2.0, you can do a lot of things and your code can get very complicated. But if you use just what you need to solve a given problem, EJB can be very effective. The cool thing is EJB scales well. So, the same tools we use for simple problems can and has been used for more complicated (distributed) solutions. That said, my mind is always open. If we can fine a better tool for the job we'll try it on a small project and roll into future projects if it makes the cut. I look forward to the next meeting! Andy -- Andrew Barton Technical Director eBlox, Inc. Discover storeBlox and webBlox at the new eblox.com! http://www.eblox.com 520.615.9345 x102 (Tucson) 520.906.5278 (mobile) mailto:andrewb;eblox.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] list policy
Hi all, It recently came to my attention that not everyone knows how this list works, I apologize for not making this clear. We also don't have any kind of welcome message, unfortunately I cannot change that right now (I'll have to talk with the sysadmin). So, I will clarify this now, to clear up any misconceptions. Currently this list is open in the following ways: Anyone can subscribe, but only subscribed members can post. The list is currently archived on www.mail-archive.com I realize that making it archived now has a drawback that your name (not your e-mail address, unless you have you have not setup your name in your e-mail program) posted for all to see on the Internet. Any comments you make are also on the Internet. This doesn't bother me, I can find posts made by me from when I was working on FreeBuilder (no longer around, but the list archives are ;-). My personal opinion is, if you can't make a comment out in the open, then you should make it privately person-to-person. However, this particular list does not offer much to the Internet as a whole, it isn't directly related to a project and of lot of it is opinionated ;-). So, I can remove this list from archive and place just the announcements on archive - so that people can see when our meetings are. Until we are a more formal organization I cannot make this a closed list, controlling who can subscribe for the following reasons (If any of you disagree with this, please come up with an alternative): 1) What determines what a member is? 2) Verification of who a person is (How can I tell your a student at the U?). If/when we have actual paying members, I think there will be two lists, one for members only that will be controlled more tightly. I look forward to all discussion and suggestions (plus I'm still waiting to hear about my Membership proposal ;-). -warner - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] list policy
plus I'm still waiting to hear about my Membership proposal ;-). If membership fees enable more heat and snacks at the meetings, then I'm all for em'. grin Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] list policy
Heat is difficult. It would take a lot to get our systems manager to raise the temperature of that room. And he would demand payment in Guinness. :) Simon. Tim Colson wrote: plus I'm still waiting to hear about my Membership proposal ;-). If membership fees enable more heat and snacks at the meetings, then I'm all for em'. grin Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] list policy
Of course if we do get the JUG setup as a non-prof with members we might be able to pay for meeting space and most likely we could get snacks ;-). Just a thought. -warner On Wednesday, November 13, 2002, at 09:49 PM, Tim Colson wrote: plus I'm still waiting to hear about my Membership proposal ;-). If membership fees enable more heat and snacks at the meetings, then I'm all for em'. grin Tim - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
