RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
As one of the certifiable experts, Erik is dead on target. I would only add that human nature is to use the tools one knows best and if they know more than one tool, to use the best tool they know about. If A Company hires Erik they do so for a number of reasons, most of which is the perception that Erik can solve their problems and they garner that from his resume, his track record and references. From then on Erik (and all the other professionals I know and respect) will do the best job he can to solve the problems with the tools at hand and if a particular aspect requires a new tool, he will learn it and use it. The idea that Erik would somehow shun a superior tool, just because he thinks his expert status would be diminished is totally foolish. Just about everyone on this list has preferences for which tools to use in various situations and while am equally sure there is a 'VERY BEST' tool for some situations, the grey area of which tool is better in one situation or another is to be expected and is normal. Now Erik has strong opinions on which technology is better and if asked will tell you...;-) But he has never put down an Expert for disagreeing with him, except in jestat least I think it was jest. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:05 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 8:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? Is there anyone who does not advocate a screwdriver? For banging nails in the wall, I'd recommend a hammer, but even the heel of a shoe may do the trick in a pinch. So let's throw all our screwdrivers away because they are useless. Let's be a bit more pragmatic than categorizing into black and white. There are lots of grey areas out there too. Randy said it very wisely that its not the answer but one of many technological alternatives (like pico, HiveMind, Avalon, etc, etc). An IoC container makes a lot of sense as part of a flexible framework - like Tapestry for example. Having all of its services pluggable (using HiveMind, not Spring, in this case) is of great value. Do I use an IoC container in my current projects? No, because it's overkill for what I build generally, but I don't build the same kinds of apps that others build where Spring is a reasonable technology option. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Could you elaborate more one item number 3? In addition, how is scalability with regards to spring? Does it scale as well as EJB? If not, at what point do you see EJB surpass Spring? On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Warner Onstine wrote: Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for the following reasons: 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even necessary if you want to test singular classes) 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in the client side) 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that you tie yourself to a container 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to swap out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and Sun realizes it. I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with XDoclet added in). -warner On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am actually looking for an answer to justify Spring. Those who have used both (e.g. me, e.g. Rick) know which one we prefer, AND which one is simpler. it certainly is better from the developer perspective. But if I were a project manager, and I am interested purely in the costs of development and support, do you really think that Spring is going to be a better solution? What, if anything justifies me adopting a panoply of object databases, messaging frameworks, and object APIs instead of an OSS platform that has wide industry latitude and is very cost
Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Spring (and other IoC containers like Hivemind) use POJOs (Plain Old Java Objects) as their beans. So, in theory you can code to an interface and swap out one bean with another, as long as they implement the same interface. Where this breaks down in practice is when you start using things like HibernateTemplates, where you are tying your implementation to Spring's specific functionality (but you can still implement things so that they work in a testing environment). As for scaling, I haven't used Spring in a large application environment so I can't answer that question. However I did find this interesting thread on the server side which may answer some of these questions (from others): http://www.theserverside.com/discussions/thread.tss?thread_id=27693 -warner On Jan 10, 2005, at 10:18 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could you elaborate more one item number 3? In addition, how is scalability with regards to spring? Does it scale as well as EJB? If not, at what point do you see EJB surpass Spring? On Sun, 9 Jan 2005, Warner Onstine wrote: Contrary to popular belief we don't all do Web development (I do, but that's me). As for advocating the use of Spring over EJB's I do for the following reasons: 1) Testability - You can much more easily mock up the classes you need and drop them into a Spring container (if need be, this isn't even necessary if you want to test singular classes) 2) It is a lightweight container - it doesn't require a full-blown EJB container in order to run (which also means that I could use Spring in the client side) 3) Spring allows you to use your own beans and doesn't require that you tie yourself to a container 4) Spring is much more than persistence (in fact that isn't even it's primary purpose, it happens that is it's current raison d'etre because of it's built-in ORM services), it makes it relatively painless to swap out Hibernate for JDO, iBatis, etc. What else? I never understood the reasoning behind EJB's (especially the fact that I had to create 4 or 5 files just to persist something). I will be the first to admit that I have not had a lot of experience with EJBs, but what I'm doing currently doesn't require me to, neither will my future development. Also, one of the key things that I love is that Hibernate's main developer, Gavin King, is helping to craft the new EJB 3 spec. This tells me that Hibernate is onto a good thing and Sun realizes it. I will let other's (who have had much more experience with EJBs to explain why they have chosen to move away from that, but I've heard many a story from developers (in this group and at many conferences) who have had absolutely horrendous experiences with EJBs (even with XDoclet added in). -warner On Jan 9, 2005, at 6:08 PM, josh zeidner wrote: One question: is there anyone on this list who does not advocate the Spring Framework? -josh --- josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well Ollie, I have to hand it to you, at least your ad hominem attacks are entertaining. Looks like weve got a lot of Spring peoples here- sorry guys, didnt mean to burst your bubble, rock the boat, upset the apple cart, etc., etc. Just looking for an educated reply to some points... --- Ollie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me thinks the lady protesteth too much. -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:52:43 To:jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Nicholas, Of course Spring is simpler! because it doesn't try to solve as many problems, instead the developer / architect has to write and support that code him or herself! At the cost of the customer! I am surely not the only one in the Java world who is suggesting these points. I'm not baiting anyone( what do you think I stand to gain? ). Ive already been in enough heated discussions recently( maybe some of you caught the 'municipal Wifi' thread ). This is a list where Java subjects are discussed( I think ). In the end I would hope that a consultant/developer is offering his or her client either a competitive advantage or a cost savings. In my experience, the 'architects' rarely do either. I don't see it as some kind of coincidence that as soon as EJB development became affordable and accessible, that some 'expert' declares it unusable for some reason, and invents some new technology that will save the day( and simultaneously a million professionals crop up ). If OSS is what you want, you can do that with Tomcat/JBoss. I can find qualified developers through Sun's program, why delve into local meritocracy/salary rating scheme if I know 1) what this technology does, 2)what people can utilize it, 3)what platforms are reliable. EJB is much cheaper to use these days- and the technology hasn't changed. Most of these Spring architects were selling EJB 3 years ago when it payed well from the developer end. What are they telling those customers today? These aren't bait questions, I am
[jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of risk. (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on how risky Spring is is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring does not replace the app server. You can use Spring with Weblogic, Webshpere, etc. This question makes no sense. Spring does not replace the app server (yet). What do you think Spring is? * How should we partition work between domestic and offshore? ## The same as you would with any technology. Having done it, I can tell you it is no big deal. Or should I say it is no bigger deal than it was before using Spring. ## I am not going to comment on the Java vs. Microsoft debate. Not b/c I don't have an opinion, but b/c I don't have the time or interest at this point. There are only so many hours in a day. I for one, am sick of watching the server log as I deploy my components and wait to test them. Large projects take forever to deploy. You end up spending more time waiting for your components to deploy so you can test
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Richard Hightower wrote: Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? Or am I still presenting NIO? =) (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of risk. (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on how risky Spring is is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring does not replace the app server. You can use Spring with Weblogic, Webshpere, etc. This question makes no sense. Spring does not replace the app server (yet). What do you think Spring is? * How should we partition work between domestic and offshore? ## The same as you would with any technology. Having done it, I can tell you it is no big deal. Or should I say it is no bigger deal than it was before using Spring. ## I am not going to comment on the Java vs. Microsoft debate. Not b/c I don't have an opinion, but b/c I don't
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Depends on which ASU campus as to which city its in ;) However, like the LA basin, almost anywhere in metro phoenix is close enough. Do you have details? Where, when, is it free, etc. :) I think there are several of us up here that may want to attend. On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Richard Hightower wrote: I am speaking in phoenix the next day. ASU is in Phoenix... Right? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:18 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Is any one able to do an audio/video/notes cache of the presentation for us/me? (Not be in Tucson is a real drag sometimes ;) On Mon, 10 Jan 2005, Robert Zeigler wrote: Richard Hightower wrote: Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) On that note... will you be presenting your spring pres. to us? Or am I still presenting NIO? =) (Again... I'm perfectly happy presenting; I'm perfectly happy not presenting. Just so long as I know what to plan on. =) Any thoughts? Warner? Anybody? =) Robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded.... RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring
Did you get your flu shot? Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:29 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring I apologize for being a little rough. -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 10:54 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is unfounded RE: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring Tuesday should be a lively discussion. I am sharpening my tongue. :o) I respect Randy, but I find Randy's fears unfounded, and his question indicate a lack of knowing what Spring is and what it is not. Spring does not replace J2EE. There is more risk to sticking with existing J2EE technology stacks to solving problems than there is to adopt something like Spring. I've written apps that are Struts/Stateless Session Bean/EJB CMP/CMR based (deployed to production). I've written similar apps that are JSF/Spring/Hibernate based (deployed to production). There is much more risk in the former than the latter. There are so many hacks (some call them J2EE design patterns), workarounds, and crud to get the former to work in a TDD environment. TDD is the real risk reducer. The second stack supports TDD. The first stack is the biggest time sink in the history of modern web development with its myriads of misplaced files. How many files to deploy an EJB with CMP CMR? Up to 7! Spring, once called the interface21 framework, was developed for and deployed to major financial institutions. If a conservative group like that is willing to bet on Spring, I can assure you that there is no extreme level of risk. (BTW I have help to deploy Spring in a very major financial institution in New York. These guys are more than conservative.) Secondly, I've examined the code base of JBoss, and the code base of Spring. I would be much more concerned about JBoss than Spring. That said, I have used JBoss and Spring together on a project. I don't feel JBoss is overtly risky. (I like JBoss to a an extent. Don't read too much criticism in this statement.) I feel comments on how risky Spring is is absolute FUD. Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. At this point in time, Spring wins for me.) Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. It kicks ass. Yes that is a technical term. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. Then look to a component based framework on the frontend like JSF and Tapestry. For the persistence tier, try a good commercial version of JDO or Hibernate. JSF/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Tapestry/Spring (+J2EE/JTA, etc if needed)/Hibernate Comments below See ### -Original Message- From: Randolph Kahle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 4:26 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JDJ: Featured article on Spring On Jan 9, 2005, at 3:52 PM, josh zeidner wrote: [...] If I were a manager I would be very wary of Spring. I agree with you on this point. ### Why? Spring is set of useful utilities. Where is the risk? ### BOO! * Who will support the technology? Who supports Tapestry? Who supports Struts? This statement is absurd. There are several companies that support Spring. ArcMind for one... Interface21 for another. J2Life for a third. Thoughtworks. Springframework.com, Etc. etc. I don't need folks in dark blue suits with vests to gain value from a framework. Hibernate paved the way. Spring is an easy sell to the fortune 100. I have had a lot of success in getting it adopted at companies big and small. It stands on its own. * Do management tools exist? ## Yes. The tool is called an editor. Newer versions of Spring include JMX support so it is toolable. Do management tools exist for Struts, WebWork, Tapestry??? Spring does not replace the app server. You can use Spring with Weblogic, Webshpere,
[jug-discussion] RE: Topic for Tues, Jan 11
Hey Gang - Let's just make it official, shall we? http://www.tucson-jug.org - I listed Richard as a "special guest"... but howabout we get him to do Spring this month and Robert could do NIO in February? Warner is the scheduler -- I'm just the lackey who puts things up on the website. Cheers, Timo From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:41 AMTo: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.orgSubject: RE: [jug-discussion] Speaking at the Phoenix JUG on Spring Whew! I thought I went insane. Thomas asked me to present. If someone else was scheduled, I am happy to just attend. I will be speaking in Phoenix, the next day if anyone want to see the presentation and does not mind driving two hours. From: Thomas Hicks [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2005 9:39 AMTo: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.orgSubject: Re: [jug-discussion] Speaking at the Phoenix JUG on Spring Geez...if all we had to do was ask, then I'm asking. I've been readingthe Spring book and would LOVE to see your presentation. Would you like to give it to us first?our meeting is the day before, you could do itas a "rehersal". regards,-tomAt 07:24 AM 1/7/2005, you wrote: They asked me yesterday. It was short notice, but I have a presentation thatI have used before for a workshop. The presentation covers Spring templates,Springs IOC (including property editors), Spring transactions, interfacingwith Hibernate via Spring. It should be fun. (I plan on attending the TucsonJUG next week. I am in town.)Speaking at the Phoenix JUG on Spring Date: 01/12/2005, 6:30 PM Location: University of Advancing Computer Technology Keynote: Title: Introduction to Spring, AOP, and IoC Abstract: Spring is a popular AOP/IoC framework that was developed by RodJohnson, Juergen Hoeller et al. Spring simplifies J2EE and Java development.(Rod Johnson is the famed author who wrote Expert One-on-One J2EE Design andDevelopment.)Spring makes J2EE development easier. Spring is a J2EE framework thatsimplifies commons tasks and encourages good design based on programming tointerfaces. Springs makes your application easier to configure and reducesthe need for many J2EE design patterns (quite a few J2EE design patterns arereally glorified hacks that clutter your code base). Spring puts the OOdesign back into your J2EE application. URL: http://www.arc-mind.com Speaker: Rick Hightower, CTO ArcMind Inc. Bio: Rick Hightower serves as chief technology officer for ArcMind Inc. Heis coauthor of the popular book Java Tools for Extreme Programming, whichcovers applying XP to J2EE development, and also recently co-authoredProfessional Struts. He has been working with J2EE since the very early daysand lately has been working mostly with Maven, Spring, JSF and Hibernate.Rick is a big JSF and Spring fan. Rick has taught several workshops andtraining courses involving the Spring framework as well as worked on severalprojects consulting, mentoring and developing with the Spring framework. http://www.phxjug.org/meetings.html-- r i c k h i g h t o w e r-- Senior Mentor-- [EMAIL PROTECTED]-- http://www.arc-mind.com-- p: 520-290-6855-- m: 520-661-6753-- f: 520-290-4179-- 15378 e colossal cave rd-- Tucson, AZ 85641Upcoming conferences:JSF QuickStart: San Diego, CA, 10/9/04-10/11JSF QuickStart: Santa Clara, CA, 10/16/04-10/17JSF QuickStart: Los Angeles, CA, 10/23/04-10/24JSF QuickStart: Phoenix, AZ, 11/6/04-11/05JSF QuickStart: Houston, TX, 11/13/04-11/14JSF QuickStart: Dallas, TX, 11/20/04-11/21JSF QuickStart: Boston, MA, 12/04/04-12/05JSF QuickStart: Seattle, WA, 12/11/04-12/12 JSF QuickStart: Las Vegas, NV, 12/18/04-12/19See for more info:http://www.arc-mind.com/courses/jsfCourseWeekendWarriorEdition.html New Publications:Warner Onstine Rick Hightower have a new book, "Professional Java Tools for Extreme Programming : Ant, XDoclet, JUnit, Cactus, Maven", available now at your local bookstore and Amazon.com:http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764556177/Rick Hightower has two new books, "Professional Jakarta Struts", available now aat your local bookstore and Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0764544373 and "Struts Live" available through SourceBeat.com: http://www.sourcebeat.com/TitleAction.do?id=3-To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded
RE: It lives on in the various ways it has spun off: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html So its underpinnings are still quite viable. Good luck pitching a project with such a ringing recommendation as it live on in many forms... It would be quite hard to convince a decision maker of such a thing as Avalon, given the perception of its recent history. Yes bias sucks. But it exists. Pico, Avalon, and more live on in that they have influenced Spring. Given Springs track record and that of Pico and Avalon, it would be a bit silly to pick them for a new project in my opinion over Spring. Unless they evolve quickly. HiveMind is a given if you are using Tapestry (at some level). You can use tapestry, Spring and Hivemind on the same project. JSF comes with its own IoC container. You have to use it at some level. You can use JSF, and Spring on the same project. (last comment for me I am having too much fun. I gotta get back to work!) -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:22 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Quite true, however it is mature in that it has evolved from Howard's mulling over the Tapestry architecture for years. Tapestry is a micro-container internally, and HiveMind has evolved from it. Tapestry has been out long before Spring came onto the scene. But, your point is taken (even with a grain of salt on this one :). Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Which may be all someone needs. Again, none of these are the solution, and I know you agree with that. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! It lives on in the various ways it has spun off: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html So its underpinnings are still quite viable. Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. But, we must choose our tools based on the problem we're solving, the skill-set we have at hand, and a number of other considerations. Spring is not necessarily the winner based on all the criteria. That being said, I've got no problem with Spring at all. I just like playing devil's advocate - someone has to take up for the underdogs. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. Right on and this is the main point I think Randy and I were also making. Be pragmatic first and foremost. Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. Given that it is all of that, I think this is where some of the risk comes in. It may be too big for some situation. If you only need IoC, it's a lot to bite off. If you only need AOP, what's wrong with AspectJ? And a 13MB download for a little ol' IoC container? Good grief And that is for the version *without* dependencies. I like the word complexity over the word risk. Is it more complex for me to add Spring into a small application rather than simply implement an abstract factory myself keying off a properties file for configuration information? In a larger application where this configuration file will be enormous, the needle swings back the other direction with the complexity of the application itself outweighing the complexity of the configuration. In other words - be pragmatic. Period. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. And to be play both sides of the discussion - I concur with this statement. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded
This is my impression of Avalon and Fortress. I would be hard pressed to back it up in fact at this point in time. Take it with a grain of salt. (last comment for me I am having too much fun. I gotta get back to work! This time for real. I am working from home. ) -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:46 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded RE: It lives on in the various ways it has spun off: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html So its underpinnings are still quite viable. Good luck pitching a project with such a ringing recommendation as it live on in many forms... It would be quite hard to convince a decision maker of such a thing as Avalon, given the perception of its recent history. Yes bias sucks. But it exists. Pico, Avalon, and more live on in that they have influenced Spring. Given Springs track record and that of Pico and Avalon, it would be a bit silly to pick them for a new project in my opinion over Spring. Unless they evolve quickly. HiveMind is a given if you are using Tapestry (at some level). You can use tapestry, Spring and Hivemind on the same project. JSF comes with its own IoC container. You have to use it at some level. You can use JSF, and Spring on the same project. (last comment for me I am having too much fun. I gotta get back to work!) -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:22 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded On Jan 10, 2005, at 12:54 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: Regarding Erik's opinions: As far as Spring vs. HiveMind, Pico container, Avalon, etc. HiveMind is nascent and not nearly as mature. Quite true, however it is mature in that it has evolved from Howard's mulling over the Tapestry architecture for years. Tapestry is a micro-container internally, and HiveMind has evolved from it. Tapestry has been out long before Spring came onto the scene. But, your point is taken (even with a grain of salt on this one :). Pico is not much more than an IoC container from what I can tell. Which may be all someone needs. Again, none of these are the solution, and I know you agree with that. Avalon is dead. Discontinued. Gone. Poof! It lives on in the various ways it has spun off: http://avalon.apache.org/closed.html So its underpinnings are still quite viable. Spring is an IoC container, and an AOP framework. It goes well beyond that and creates a mass array of utilities to simplify developing with JDBC, JMS, JMX, Hibernate, EJB (yes you heard me... I said it helps with EJB), etc. At this point in time, Spring wins out in maturity and features. But, we must choose our tools based on the problem we're solving, the skill-set we have at hand, and a number of other considerations. Spring is not necessarily the winner based on all the criteria. That being said, I've got no problem with Spring at all. I just like playing devil's advocate - someone has to take up for the underdogs. (This does not mean that I am advocating only Spring. I would be happy to work on a HiveMind only project. I have no problems with trying new things. Right on and this is the main point I think Randy and I were also making. Be pragmatic first and foremost. Spring is a pneumatic pump with attachments for screw driving, bolt cutting, hammering, etc. Given that it is all of that, I think this is where some of the risk comes in. It may be too big for some situation. If you only need IoC, it's a lot to bite off. If you only need AOP, what's wrong with AspectJ? And a 13MB download for a little ol' IoC container? Good grief And that is for the version *without* dependencies. I like the word complexity over the word risk. Is it more complex for me to add Spring into a small application rather than simply implement an abstract factory myself keying off a properties file for configuration information? In a larger application where this configuration file will be enormous, the needle swings back the other direction with the complexity of the application itself outweighing the complexity of the configuration. In other words - be pragmatic. Period. If you are developing web apps, I feel it very wise to look into Spring for the backend to augment your investment in J2EE. And to be play both sides of the discussion - I concur with this statement. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To
RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity
Yes. I agree. -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 12:45 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Simplicity On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: I first learned about IoC from the Pico project. They had the simplest definition. Small words and easy for me to understand. I continually strive for simplicity. I'm a firm believer that complexity must be fought fiercely at every opportunity. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded
On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: As always, I am in violent agreement with you. :o) Erik and I have been in violent agreement since 2001. I love ya man: http://www.lucenebook.com/search?query=hightower+lesiecki (I had to put lesiecki in there to get my highlighter to show the full comment :) Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity
Amen! Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:45 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Simplicity On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: I first learned about IoC from the Pico project. They had the simplest definition. Small words and easy for me to understand. I continually strive for simplicity. I'm a firm believer that complexity must be fought fiercely at every opportunity. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity
Which is exactly why both of you should dig Spring as it goal in life is to simplify J2EE development!! Mike you can still catch the AM flight and be in Tucson tomorrow for my talk. Erik you will need to catch the red eye tonight. Are flights from Vegas cheap -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:11 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Amen! Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:45 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Simplicity On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: I first learned about IoC from the Pico project. They had the simplest definition. Small words and easy for me to understand. I continually strive for simplicity. I'm a firm believer that complexity must be fought fiercely at every opportunity. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity
Oh yea cheap, $39 last time I checked but I am attending a Knowledge Management Conference here and meeting with some of my old buds, so I will have to pass. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:30 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Which is exactly why both of you should dig Spring as it goal in life is to simplify J2EE development!! Mike you can still catch the AM flight and be in Tucson tomorrow for my talk. Erik you will need to catch the red eye tonight. Are flights from Vegas cheap -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:11 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Amen! Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:45 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Simplicity On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: I first learned about IoC from the Pico project. They had the simplest definition. Small words and easy for me to understand. I continually strive for simplicity. I'm a firm believer that complexity must be fought fiercely at every opportunity. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity
No worries -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:33 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Oh yea cheap, $39 last time I checked but I am attending a Knowledge Management Conference here and meeting with some of my old buds, so I will have to pass. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 1:30 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Which is exactly why both of you should dig Spring as it goal in life is to simplify J2EE development!! Mike you can still catch the AM flight and be in Tucson tomorrow for my talk. Erik you will need to catch the red eye tonight. Are flights from Vegas cheap -Original Message- From: Michael Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 2:11 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] Simplicity Amen! Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 3325 N. Nellis Blvd, #1 Las Vegas, NV 89115 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(520)844-1036 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Erik Hatcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 10, 2005 11:45 AM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: [jug-discussion] Simplicity On Jan 10, 2005, at 2:36 PM, Richard Hightower wrote: I first learned about IoC from the Pico project. They had the simplest definition. Small words and easy for me to understand. I continually strive for simplicity. I'm a firm believer that complexity must be fought fiercely at every opportunity. Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[jug-discussion] AOP overhead
This is just with bare bones JVM setting running inside of Eclipse. I am calling a simple method that I decorate with AOP. The overhead for AOP seems to be about 0.00048 milliseconds on my box or 0.0048 seconds. If I use dynamic AOP support the overhead jumps all the way to 0.00059 milliseconds on my box or 0.0059 seconds. By comparison, adding a simple MessageFormat call is about twenty times the overhead (0.009591 miliseconds). All of this is dust on the scale once you start hitting backend dbs and such. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] Spring FUD is confounded
On Jan 10, 2005, at 4:50 PM, Drew Davidson wrote: creamy OGNL goodness I love OGNL, but the thought of it being creamy has lessened it somewhat. Given that it is all of that, I think this is where some of the risk comes in. It may be too big for some situation. If you only need IoC, it's a lot to bite off. If you only need AOP, what's wrong with AspectJ? And a 13MB download for a little ol' IoC container? Good grief And that is for the version *without* dependencies. First of all, don't ask a question like what's wrong with AspectJ in my presence unless you are prepared for the answer. I'm quite prepared for whatever your response may be. Going back to my above example, I'm applying advice on my order status method only in the admin application - not the front-end application. AspectJ just wouldn't work on this example. How do you handle it with Spring? Different configuration files per application? You could certainly do something similar using AspectJ - depending on your architecture. If they are separate .class/.jar files you could instrument them separately. Or you could have a *configuration* switch (Spring loaded!) that the aspect keyed off of whether it was in admin or front-end - or perhaps the call graph differs in a way that could be aspected specifically for only the front-end? Either way, saying it wouldn't work to a community full of developers is surely asking to be shown otherwise. We're the ones that always say no problem to whatever crazy requirement comes down the pipe. Anyway, there are few apps where I wouldn't use Spring right now. Command-line filter type of applications are one of the few. Almost anything that I do that is interesting has many interacting pieces that would be better served by configuration. I certainly agree with that last sentence. And I'm pleased to see Rick wire up jython as a way to do this configuration. I'm leaning more and more towards domain-centric languages. We all have our hammers. Personally, I'd use Lucene for configuration... Hits hits = searcher.search(new TermQuery(config, bean.class)); // :)) Erik - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
