Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? -Todd Todd R. Ellermann President PHXJUG.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform compatibility. We all know how that went. Jboss has been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world. Try installing it on linux... -josh --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? -Todd Todd R. Ellermann President PHXJUG.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange ways. Having taken over a large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I think they're trying to figure out where to go from here - J2EE looks to me to be on the downswing, with lighter weight technologies increasingly used as alternatives. Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more competition in the free/open source J2EE app server market. It is telling that they say most developers are using JBoss on Windows; that's a low-end system market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in even medium sized companies. I haven't noticed any problems installing it on Linux, though - untgz, go to bin, and run the script. What kind of problems have you seen? The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense as a technical development (rather than a marketing one) is if JBoss intends to go more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies. Perhaps they're planning to add features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in their replacement for Axis (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS), and want to work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think that's probably a bad approach, if they're building on top of the standard - JAX-RPC is a horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is much better (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in large part because it was built around JAX-RPC; Axis2 is taking the cleaner approach of building their own core with the intent to support JAX-RPC/JAX-WS as a wrapper. - Dennis josh zeidner wrote: well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform compatibility. We all know how that went. Jboss has been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world. Try installing it on linux... -josh --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? -Todd Todd R. Ellermann President PHXJUG.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
Dennis, Well done, I couldn't agree more. I would only add that just prior to Placeware being acquired there was a flurry of activity around initiatives for compatibility that were a smoke screen for the Microsoft folks wandering around the Placeware facility...;-) Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096 Las Vegas, NV 89156 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(702)974-0341 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Dennis Sosnoski [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 1:02 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss? I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange ways. Having taken over a large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I think they're trying to figure out where to go from here - J2EE looks to me to be on the downswing, with lighter weight technologies increasingly used as alternatives. Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more competition in the free/open source J2EE app server market. It is telling that they say most developers are using JBoss on Windows; that's a low-end system market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in even medium sized companies. I haven't noticed any problems installing it on Linux, though - untgz, go to bin, and run the script. What kind of problems have you seen? The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense as a technical development (rather than a marketing one) is if JBoss intends to go more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies. Perhaps they're planning to add features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in their replacement for Axis (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS), and want to work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think that's probably a bad approach, if they're building on top of the standard - JAX-RPC is a horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is much better (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in large part because it was built around JAX-RPC; Axis2 is taking the cleaner approach of building their own core with the intent to support JAX-RPC/JAX-WS as a wrapper. - Dennis josh zeidner wrote: well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform compatibility. We all know how that went. Jboss has been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world. Try installing it on linux... -josh --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? -Todd Todd R. Ellermann President PHXJUG.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. But they acquired Placeware to make Live Meeting and that was 100% Java. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096 Las Vegas, NV 89156 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(702)974-0341 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:53 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss? --- Dennis Sosnoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange ways. Having taken over a large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I think they're trying to figure out where to go from here They certainly seem to suggest that they are their own platform, seperate and distinct from the Sun/J2EE world. - J2EE looks to me to be on the downswing, with lighter weight technologies increasingly used as alternatives. Despite my enthusiasm for Java, and my time invested in it; Python looks like it make bite heels of the EAI world. Anyone here use Twisted? Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more competition in the free/open source J2EE app server market. It is telling that they say most developers are using JBoss on Windows; JBoss is hugely popular in Asia... most of the people /selling/ this service are not in america, but there are many americans buying this solution. that's a low-end system market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in even medium sized companies. IBMs strategy is I believe to use the Open source Geronimo server as a gateway to higher end services and products from IBM. It has yet to be seen how this will pan out. I haven't noticed any problems installing it on Linux, though - untgz, go to bin, and run the script. What kind of problems have you seen? There are JMX problems- they cannot be resolved because Sun wont freeze and disclose the spec to JBoss. There have been historical cooperation problems with Sun and JBoss. Sun did not intend for OSS providers to be building EJB servers... The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense as a technical development (rather than a marketing one) is if JBoss intends to go more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies. I definately agree, I can't see Msoft spending money supporting a solid J2EE stack being that it stands in direct opposition to the .NET initiative. Most likely they will use JBoss to lure j2ee developers into the microsoft world. Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. Perhaps they're planning to add features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in their replacement for Axis (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS), and want to work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think that's probably a bad approach, if they're building on top of the standard - JAX-RPC is a horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is much better (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in large part because it was built around JAX-RPC; Axis2 is taking the cleaner approach of building their own core with the intent to support JAX-RPC/JAX-WS as a wrapper. Never worked with Axis directly, but I know what the system does -josh - Dennis josh zeidner wrote: well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform compatibility. We all know how that went. Jboss has been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world. Try installing it on linux... -josh --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere? -Todd Todd R. Ellermann President PHXJUG.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] 602-738-6187 __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005 http://mail.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Yahoo! for Good Donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. http
RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
there could be many facets to that strategy though. They could just want the user base and slowly couple to their longer-term investments. In general though, Microsoft will fight one battle after another to prevent thier OS from becoming a commodity priced next to Linux or Max OSX. They lose in this case. While outwardly they must advertise maximum compatibility, engineers know that this is rarely what is offered. They certainly havent sold good engineers on what they claim is 'superior technology'. What was built in Java in placeware? did they have their own transmission protocol? Does it use RTP? If all they have a simple java client, it not too expensive to swap out with Windows code. Managing compatibilities is though, and this could be the asset they would gain in such an aquisition... -josh --- Michael Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. But they acquired Placeware to make Live Meeting and that was 100% Java. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096 Las Vegas, NV 89156 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(702)974-0341 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:53 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss? --- Dennis Sosnoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange ways. Having taken over a large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I think they're trying to figure out where to go from here They certainly seem to suggest that they are their own platform, seperate and distinct from the Sun/J2EE world. - J2EE looks to me to be on the downswing, with lighter weight technologies increasingly used as alternatives. Despite my enthusiasm for Java, and my time invested in it; Python looks like it make bite heels of the EAI world. Anyone here use Twisted? Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more competition in the free/open source J2EE app server market. It is telling that they say most developers are using JBoss on Windows; JBoss is hugely popular in Asia... most of the people /selling/ this service are not in america, but there are many americans buying this solution. that's a low-end system market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in even medium sized companies. IBMs strategy is I believe to use the Open source Geronimo server as a gateway to higher end services and products from IBM. It has yet to be seen how this will pan out. I haven't noticed any problems installing it on Linux, though - untgz, go to bin, and run the script. What kind of problems have you seen? There are JMX problems- they cannot be resolved because Sun wont freeze and disclose the spec to JBoss. There have been historical cooperation problems with Sun and JBoss. Sun did not intend for OSS providers to be building EJB servers... The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense as a technical development (rather than a marketing one) is if JBoss intends to go more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies. I definately agree, I can't see Msoft spending money supporting a solid J2EE stack being that it stands in direct opposition to the .NET initiative. Most likely they will use JBoss to lure j2ee developers into the microsoft world. Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. Perhaps they're planning to add features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in their replacement for Axis (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS), and want to work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think that's probably a bad approach, if they're building on top of the standard - JAX-RPC is a horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is much better (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in large part because it was built around JAX-RPC; Axis2 is taking the cleaner approach of building their own core with the intent to support JAX-RPC/JAX-WS as a wrapper. Never worked with Axis directly, but I know what the system does -josh - Dennis josh zeidner wrote: well, C was meant to be a solution to UNIX platform compatibility. We all know how that went. Jboss has been evolving into a strange beast in the last year. They are almost their own platform apart from J2EE. Certainly the odd man out of the J2ee world. Try installing it on linux... -josh --- Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This occured for me like the un-announcement Uhhh Doesn't JBoss run on Java? Doesn't Java Run Anywhere
RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss?
I am fairly sure, not having my nose under the tent at Placeware that they were 100% java and not just the client, but your points are well taken and Microsoft isn't above buying a company to squash them or to make that companies competitors their own. Microsoft probably wanted WebEx but couldn't afford them, so they buy their closest competitor and pump money into them to weaken WebEx and eventually to take them too and poof only one major vendor. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096 Las Vegas, NV 89156 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(702)974-0341 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 3:05 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: RE: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss? there could be many facets to that strategy though. They could just want the user base and slowly couple to their longer-term investments. In general though, Microsoft will fight one battle after another to prevent thier OS from becoming a commodity priced next to Linux or Max OSX. They lose in this case. While outwardly they must advertise maximum compatibility, engineers know that this is rarely what is offered. They certainly havent sold good engineers on what they claim is 'superior technology'. What was built in Java in placeware? did they have their own transmission protocol? Does it use RTP? If all they have a simple java client, it not too expensive to swap out with Windows code. Managing compatibilities is though, and this could be the asset they would gain in such an aquisition... -josh --- Michael Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. But they acquired Placeware to make Live Meeting and that was 100% Java. Michael Oliver CTO Alarius Systems LLC 6800 E. Lake Mead Blvd, #1096 Las Vegas, NV 89156 Phone:(702)643-7425 Fax:(702)974-0341 *Note new email changed from [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: josh zeidner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 29, 2005 2:53 PM To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] MSoft + Jboss? --- Dennis Sosnoski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that JBoss is evolving in some strange ways. Having taken over a large developer mindshare in the J2EE market I think they're trying to figure out where to go from here They certainly seem to suggest that they are their own platform, seperate and distinct from the Sun/J2EE world. - J2EE looks to me to be on the downswing, with lighter weight technologies increasingly used as alternatives. Despite my enthusiasm for Java, and my time invested in it; Python looks like it make bite heels of the EAI world. Anyone here use Twisted? Meanwhile, JBoss is getting more competition in the free/open source J2EE app server market. It is telling that they say most developers are using JBoss on Windows; JBoss is hugely popular in Asia... most of the people /selling/ this service are not in america, but there are many americans buying this solution. that's a low-end system market, certainly not what I'd expect to see in even medium sized companies. IBMs strategy is I believe to use the Open source Geronimo server as a gateway to higher end services and products from IBM. It has yet to be seen how this will pan out. I haven't noticed any problems installing it on Linux, though - untgz, go to bin, and run the script. What kind of problems have you seen? There are JMX problems- they cannot be resolved because Sun wont freeze and disclose the spec to JBoss. There have been historical cooperation problems with Sun and JBoss. Sun did not intend for OSS providers to be building EJB servers... The only way this arrangement with MS makes sense as a technical development (rather than a marketing one) is if JBoss intends to go more into non-J2EE or J2EE++ technologies. I definately agree, I can't see Msoft spending money supporting a solid J2EE stack being that it stands in direct opposition to the .NET initiative. Most likely they will use JBoss to lure j2ee developers into the microsoft world. Anybody who know the history of Microsoft and Java knows that there is not exactly a long legacy of cooperation between those two camps. Perhaps they're planning to add features beyond standard JAX-RPC/JAX-WS support in their replacement for Axis (http://wiki.jboss.org/wiki/Wiki.jsp?page=JBossWS), and want to work toward Microsoft compatibility. I think that's probably a bad approach, if they're building on top of the standard - JAX-RPC is a horrible mess, and I don't really think JAX-WS is much better (annotation overload). Axis1 became a mess in large
