Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Richard Hightower
JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby.




On 12/9/08 8:16 PM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get
 paid for something that I love to do.
 
 Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly.  But it's fun to watch.
 
 Anyway, Rick, a few points:
 
 1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed
 writing Java.  But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really
 cool, REALLY smart people.  I worked with some really cool smart
 people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of
 them.  Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard
 java developers, in my experience.  In Ruby it seems to be the
 opposite.  I'm a biased troll, though...
 
 2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly
 outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't
 back this up...).  This is the nature of the adoption curve.
 
 3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take
 advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems.  Ruby has tons of
 sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released,
 supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which
 is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption.
  When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in
 any proven, performant, scalable Java library.  As I said, language
 preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a
 compelling advantage of JRuby?
 
 Remember, I love you all.  I just love to troll too :)
 
 -- Chad
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Todd Ellermann
PHP developers are Cool and happy too but I am not accusing them of having 
made a good engineering decision. 

Attempting to divert the ruby/groovy/java war to pick on the kid in the corner 
who is not here to defend himself.

If you really want to explore some of the differences in these languages you 
may enjoy the screencasts we did as part of my Masters Thesis.  We wrote the 
same two web applications in 8 different programming languages.  
http://www.betterwebapp.commy personal non-comercial website with no 
agenda.  There were MS guys, python guys, perl guys et al... on the project.  
would love some feedback.  The conclusion... depends on your business drivers.  
Cool little ajax tool to test out.
-Todd

 ***
Todd R. Ellermann
VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com


Founder Webagogy.com
Researcher Betterwebapp.com


Personal:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
805-850-8044 cell
***


-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Chad Woolley
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 11:22 PM, Richard Hightower
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Ha. I am no troll. This is a Java list after all. I am quite un-trollish in
 saying that Java is not dead on a Java list and using evidence to support my
 assertion of the un-deadness of Java.

Even though the list and group is still a JUG, there have been (at
least a couple I remember) of in-person meetings where people have
(unofficially?) agreed that non-Java stuff was fair game.

Plus, JRuby, as a Sun-developed dynamic language for the Java Virtual
Machine, is very on topic for a Java group.

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Chad Woolley
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby.

You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to
take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to
Groovy].

-- Chad

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Chad Woolley
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 It has been my overwhelming experience that software
 engineers are very bad (for whatever reasons) at recognizing the hammer they
 are holding isn't the right one.

I'd rather have a Golden Hammer than a Golden Salami...

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Richard Hightower
Yes. Chad. That is very cool. Jython does the same for Python libs. It is
pretty cool.


On 12/10/08 9:37 AM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 10:45 PM, Richard Hightower
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 JRuby is cool. If I were going to use Ruby, it would most likely be Jruby.
 
 You've [still] conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to
 take advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems [as opposed to
 Groovy].
 
 -- Chad
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Chad Woolley
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff.

Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting
thread going on this mailing list ;)

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-10 Thread Richard Hightower
Ic... I fell into your trap. At least I took Kit with me




On 12/10/08 10:26 AM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:18 AM, Richard Hightower
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Just not such a big fan of the Java is dead stuff.
 
 Yes, but that part was essential to my goal of getting an interesting
 thread going on this mailing list ;)
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



[jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-09 Thread Richard Hightower
Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby.

deploy/run/test not a problem

mvn jetty:run


Ok... I will bite, but just this once.

When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications then I will
drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing for the
last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger than the
entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you can be
paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I do not
like Ruby. 

For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get
paid for something that I love to do.

I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I wanted Jython
to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with Jython (a
book that no one read).

When you say Java is Dead it sounds a lot like Ruby has won. In terms of
the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and Python.
In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby has won
in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with two left
legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not won
anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus impact in
the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael Phelps.


On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already
 be built on Spring).

Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you  would
be all over it. Your point is moot.

 Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby.  JRuby
 development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure what
 your point is.  

The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little
influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a fluke.
Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al have a
much better track record (although much smaller one).


 FWIW, Groovy was originally invented by James
 Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least.

Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource could
have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my point.
Grails is tied to Groovy.

 
 The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below
 is the percentage of happy developers in both camps.  I would assert,
 but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby
 devers than Java devers.  Not only that - but, the issue of quality
 comes into play some where too.  I won't provide an assertion here -
 but, it is a relative notion.

Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and hated it.
What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population per se.
For example, there are people in the world who are quite content drinking
their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet.

 
 Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the fence
 here.  It is imperative that you can see past this to the real value -
 developmental efficiency.  There's no way Java can win - based on its
 code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle.

Prompt mvn jetty:run

Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick.
Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of
development. It will take its place in history next to (at this point I
realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other group of
people)

 Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity you'll
 be burdened with pure Java once again.

This makes no sense. Why? I have written large things in Groovy and did not
need to revert to Java. This is silliness. Moot point.

 
 If for no other reason than Sun is a turd, Java is dead.

Unproven opinion, easily refuted with real evidence. Java is in no way dead.
It will fall out of favor eventually as all things do.

Ruby will be a never was. Java will one day be a former heavy weight
champion of the world.

 Open  
 sourcing Sun's version of the JVM and platform has done nothing for
 ensuring its longevity.  Only said with a slight grin.


 
 
 
 On Dec 9, 2008, at 7:17 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:
 
 
 RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.
 
 From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw
 numbers)
 than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way
 of your
 Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby
 does not
 seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero,
 percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough.
 
 BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead.
 
 http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl=
 
 http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl=
 
 I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why
 they did
 not back 

Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-09 Thread Kit Plummer

Ha.  Sucka.

I'm no Ruby zealot.   You have sadly, and quite immaturely, mistaken a  
few assertions for a stance.  I have enjoyed working with Ruby (when  
it happens), eclectic as the community is - but, I don't really care  
what language I have to work with as long as the people around me are  
cool.  The nice thing about being eclectic though is you don't care  
who wins or loses.  I'm not sure why you think this is a game, or even  
a debate.


Surely, you see the irony in you taking (seemingly personal) offense  
to the Java is dead stick as well as your feeble attempt to start  
dissin' on me like I'm a 20-something Ruby twerp from Phoenix.


Your 'mvn jetty:run' point is lame.   Oh, only if ever thing were a  
webapp.  But, comparing Java to Michael Phelps has to be the most  
ridiculous thing I've read in a long, long time.  Though, giving in a  
second's thought - Phelps is quite literally a freak of nature.  So,  
I'll give you that Java (JVM, language + platform) is a freak of  
technology.


Please don't bite again...spare us your drivelish-trolling.  Though  
I'm sure Chad would love for more Javites to make fools of themselves.


On Dec 9, 2008, at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower wrote:


Kit, I am damn happy. I do not like Ruby.

deploy/run/test not a problem

mvn jetty:run


Ok... I will bite, but just this once.

When real trends start lining up with your Ruby prognostications  
then I will
drink some of the Ruby flavor-aid that you guys have been spewing  
for the
last three+ years. But when Java demand grows in 4 months larger  
than the
entire Ruby market, I look at Ruby and laugh. I am happy that you  
can be
paid to do Ruby development if that is what floats your boat, but I  
do not

like Ruby.

For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I  
can get

paid for something that I love to do.

I actually prefer Groovy to Python now. Groovy is everything I  
wanted Jython
to be back in 1999 when I wrote Programming the Java APIs with  
Jython (a

book that no one read).

When you say Java is Dead it sounds a lot like Ruby has won. In  
terms of
the Lamp world Ruby is dead last behind the likes of PHP, Perl and  
Python.
In terms of the enterprise world, Ruby does not even show up. Ruby  
has won
in the sense of a politically correct school where every kid with  
two left
legs wins a race because we are all winners after all. Ruby has not  
won
anything in any real sense except in the percentage of hype versus  
impact in
the real world. In that sense Java is not Dead, Java is Michael  
Phelps.



On 12/9/08 6:40 PM, Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Umm...SpringSource is really backing Grails (which happens to already
be built on Spring).


Yes in a way they are. If they backed Rails in a similar manner you   
would

be all over it. Your point is moot.


Groovy is a JSR, and so is JRuby.  JRuby
development is also being done by Sun engineers - so I'm not sure  
what

your point is.


The same can be said of EJB 1.0. Moot point. Sun's backing has little
influence on success. In fact, some may say that Java success is a  
fluke.
Sun sends out 100 things for every 1 that floats. Rod Johnson et al  
have a

much better track record (although much smaller one).



FWIW, Groovy was originally invented by James
Strachan...who's neither a SpringSource or Sun guy, to say the least.


Well known fact and not disputed. Again Moot point. SpringSource  
could
have backed some Rail turds but they choose Grail turds. This was my  
point.

Grails is tied to Groovy.



The thing that you are missing in you're quantitative analysis below
is the percentage of happy developers in both camps.  I would assert,
but you don't have to believe me, that there are many more happy Ruby
devers than Java devers.  Not only that - but, the issue of quality
comes into play some where too.  I won't provide an assertion here -
but, it is a relative notion.


Silliness. I know plenty of Java developers that tried Ruby and  
hated it.
What makes you happy does not correlate to the general population  
per se.
For example, there are people in the world who are quite content  
drinking

their own urine, but I would not sell my stock in Coca-Cola quite yet.



Don't get me wrong there is a plenty of ego on both sides of the  
fence
here.  It is imperative that you can see past this to the real  
value -

developmental efficiency.  There's no way Java can win - based on its
code, build, deploy/run/test, code, build deploy/run/test cycle.


Prompt mvn jetty:run

Runs the entire webapp. Starts up damn quick.
Java is the undisputed champion. Ruby is a mere pimple on the ass of
development. It will take its place in history next to (at this  
point I
realize if I name anything... I will just piss off a whole other  
group of

people)

Groovy helps...but, as soon as there is any level of complexity  
you'll

be burdened with pure Java once again.


This makes no sense. Why? I have written 

Re: [jug-discussion] Java is dead... Here we go again....

2008-12-09 Thread Chad Woolley
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 8:29 PM, Richard Hightower
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 For now I will stick to Java and Groovy with glee in my heart that I can get
 paid for something that I love to do.

Damn, didn't mean for the trollfest to turn ugly.  But it's fun to watch.

Anyway, Rick, a few points:

1. I get paid to write Ruby, and I enjoy it more than I ever enjoyed
writing Java.  But, as Kit said, I also work with a lot of really
cool, REALLY smart people.  I worked with some really cool smart
people when I was doing Java, but just a few of them, not a LOT of
them.  Smartness was the exception rather than the rule in standard
java developers, in my experience.  In Ruby it seems to be the
opposite.  I'm a biased troll, though...

2. I could care less what most developers in the world write (mostly
outsourced/offshore/corporate maintenance drones I bet, but I can't
back this up...).  This is the nature of the adoption curve.

3. You've conveniently ignored my point about JRuby being able to take
advantage of both the Java and Ruby ecosystems.  Ruby has tons of
sweet, cutting-edge, actively maintained, frequently-released,
supremely hackable open source tools, libraries, and frameworks, which
is facilitated by things like RubyGems and widespread GitHub adoption.
 When those don't work for you for some reason, JRuby lets you plug in
any proven, performant, scalable Java library.  As I said, language
preference and market share aside, don't you agree this is a
compelling advantage of JRuby?

Remember, I love you all.  I just love to troll too :)

-- Chad

-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]