RE: [jug-discussion] Web Oriented Architecture WOA

2006-09-21 Thread Tim Colson \(tcolson\)
 I agree that focus on XML as the message is key. 
I'm not even sure that XML is the key. I've been experimenting with some
JSON data transmission, and it seems to work just fine with the bonus of
no angle brackets.

http://developer.yahoo.com/common/json.html

Parsing or outputing in Java is easy and in Javascript it's truly
trivial (since it's a native data struct).

Why do we all buy into XML? For two good reasons -- it's plain text that
is both human readable and usually understandable, even without a
schema. JSON provides the same thing. I'm not going to argue JSON v.s.
XML smackdown... just pointing out that it seems like another rationale
option for services. 

-Tim

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Re: [jug-discussion] Web Oriented Architecture WOA

2006-09-21 Thread Warner Onstine
yeah, JSON is very cool, I seem to remember something about a JCP for  
JSON data or at least them coming up with a specification for it to  
be easily transferred.


-warner

On Sep 21, 2006, at 11:51 AM, Tim Colson ((tcolson)) wrote:


I agree that focus on XML as the message is key.
I'm not even sure that XML is the key. I've been experimenting with  
some
JSON data transmission, and it seems to work just fine with the  
bonus of

no angle brackets.

http://developer.yahoo.com/common/json.html

Parsing or outputing in Java is easy and in Javascript it's truly
trivial (since it's a native data struct).

Why do we all buy into XML? For two good reasons -- it's plain text  
that

is both human readable and usually understandable, even without a
schema. JSON provides the same thing. I'm not going to argue JSON v.s.
XML smackdown... just pointing out that it seems like another  
rationale

option for services.

-Tim

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Re: [jug-discussion] Web Oriented Architecture WOA

2006-09-21 Thread Steven Elliott
On 9/21/06 11:51, Tim Colson (tcolson) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Why do we all buy into XML? For two good reasons -- it's plain text that
 is both human readable and usually understandable, even without a
 schema. JSON provides the same thing. I'm not going to argue JSON v.s.
 XML smackdown... just pointing out that it seems like another rationale
 option for services.

XML was ok(barely) if you were just dealing with DOM on the client; at least
the semantics and paradigm resembled one another.  As soon as it became
apparent the way to communicate with the client was via Javascript
(upstream/downstream) then JSON is the only alternative.

Not only is JSON more compact but it allows more expression:
{proof:function(){ alert(can't be done easily in XML and not directly!);
} }


Not to mention you end up doing the DOM in Javascript whichever transport
you choose.. soo

Steven



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Re: [jug-discussion] Web Oriented Architecture WOA

2006-09-15 Thread Randolph Kahle

Hi Dennis,

Thank you for the reply.

I agree that focus on XML as the message is key. How the message is  
delivered is a subsidiary issue. You could even say that applications  
that have multiple delivery mechanisms (SMTP, JMS, HTTP, etc.) are  
better as they are more flexible and adaptable.


I started to look at WOA just after I submitted an article to FTP for  
publication (next week) on building Ajax applications with NetKernel.  
One of the assertions I make is that with NetKernel you can view the  
server-side code as series of web surfaces (URI addressing of  
resources, composition of resources from finer-grained resources,  
etc. all the way to the database). What struck me about WOA was that  
might be an interesting analog at the enterprise level. I'm still  
trying to sort that out and that's why I posted the question to this  
group.


I like your comment about POX (I had not heard that term before). The  
more I look at XML as the message with respect to systems design,  
the more I realize that with a solid/complete XML tool chain one does  
not need to bind to Java objects. The RDMBS - XML and then XML -  
XML/XHTML/JSON transformations can all be done without ever binding  
to or using Java objects. So, it sounds like we are in agreement -  
the POX approach, using an appropriate delivery mechanism, is simple,  
flexible, etc. And developing POX applications can be simple and not  
even require Java objects.


Interesting stuff...

Randy


On Sep 14, 2006, at 9:38 PM, Dennis Sosnoski wrote:


Hi Randy,

There's a lot of confusion over terminology in this area. REST is a  
particular approach to working with distributed resources, and most  
of what's being done under the name of REST doesn't actually match  
the rules. What's really becoming popular is POX - Plain Old XML,  
exchanged using any convenient protocol (HTTP, TCP, SMTP, etc.).  
POX approaches offer much of the flexibility of SOAP Web services  
without requiring complex frameworks to implement.


WOA seems an inappropriate restriction to HTTP, so I don't really  
see this as a big innovation.


 - Dennis

BTW, I'm going to be passing through Tucson tomorrow afternoon and  
again on Monday afternoon. If anyone has some needs in the Web  
services realm I'd be glad to stop by and discuss.


Dennis M. Sosnoski
SOA, Web Services, and XML
Training and Consulting
http://www.sosnoski.com - http://www.sosnoski.co.nz
Seattle, WA +1-425-296-6194 - Wellington, NZ +64-4-298-6117



Randolph Kahle wrote:

Anyone following the discussion about WOA?

Here is a link to a discussion about it:

http://hinchcliffe.org/archive/2006/09/10/9275.aspx

Regards,

Randy


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Regards,

Randy
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Randy Kahle
Principal
Variantia, LLC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Re: [jug-discussion] Web Oriented Architecture WOA

2006-09-14 Thread Dennis Sosnoski

Hi Randy,

There's a lot of confusion over terminology in this area. REST is a 
particular approach to working with distributed resources, and most of 
what's being done under the name of REST doesn't actually match the 
rules. What's really becoming popular is POX - Plain Old XML, exchanged 
using any convenient protocol (HTTP, TCP, SMTP, etc.). POX approaches 
offer much of the flexibility of SOAP Web services without requiring 
complex frameworks to implement.


WOA seems an inappropriate restriction to HTTP, so I don't really see 
this as a big innovation.


 - Dennis

BTW, I'm going to be passing through Tucson tomorrow afternoon and again 
on Monday afternoon. If anyone has some needs in the Web services realm 
I'd be glad to stop by and discuss.


Dennis M. Sosnoski
SOA, Web Services, and XML
Training and Consulting
http://www.sosnoski.com - http://www.sosnoski.co.nz
Seattle, WA +1-425-296-6194 - Wellington, NZ +64-4-298-6117



Randolph Kahle wrote:

Anyone following the discussion about WOA?

Here is a link to a discussion about it:

http://hinchcliffe.org/archive/2006/09/10/9275.aspx

Regards,

Randy


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