Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-10 Thread Kit Plummer

Yes.

As far as tooling goes...this is changing, sort of.  There are new  
tools with Ruby/Rails support and Ruby-specific ones hitting the  
streets.  I kind of appreciate the screencast phenomenon...but, I  
understand your point.  That said there are very few Java libs that  
I've used recently where I was like wow, that's some mmn mmn good  
documentation.  Probably would have to been OpenFire or Spark.


Groovy kind of has that same agilish feel - in that the  
documentation is sparse, but enough.


But, the real issue is that Ruby is truly dynamic - whether it run in  
the JVM or any other VM.  Java and Groovy, to some extent, get off  
easy with tooling.  Take this with a grain of salt, but I believe that  
Ruby's (and Rails') docs suck because nobody cares.  If good docs were  
needed they would sure exist.


On Dec 9, 2008, at 10:45 PM, Hollamon, Andrew wrote:

I'm not even remotely interested in arguing about which one is  
'better' in some global sense.


But I will say that Ruby/Rails is a phenomenal platform for a big  
chunk of the clients we service.  The ability to get quality,  
complete, and very fancy (from an ajax perspective) apps together in  
an amazingly short time is beyond anything I've ever seen before.


There are plenty of situations I wouldn't necessarily want to use  
it, but in its niche (which is quite large, at least in my world)  
its just absolutely amazing.


There are warts though with Ruby and Rails:

Documentation is freaking terrible.  Most of the good documentation  
is in video clips, which just makes me sad.


Tools are freaking terrible.

Deployment can be downright painful until you get used to the 6000  
little quirks of the platform.  Even mod_ruby/passenger, which is a  
nice improvement, is not undocumented-figure-it-out-by-trial-and- 
error free.


All that being said  its amazingly fast (to develop in) and  
productive.  The code tends to be quite compact and beautiful.


I do miss my interfaces, documentation, and tools from the Java  
world though.  Oh to be able to do an F3 or CTRL-T in my Rails code  
and just follow the references.


Andrew

___

Andrew Hollamon
D'Mention Systems, LLC
http://dmnsys.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
520-229-8730  office
520-623-3879  fax

Use our online helpdesk:
http://helpdesk.dmnsys.com/



-Original Message-
From: Richard Hightower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2008 7:17 PM
To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the  
Holiday Party?)



RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw  
numbers)
than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way  
of your
Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby  
does not

seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero,
percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough.

BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead.

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl=

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl=

I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why  
they did

not back Jruby in a similar manner. H


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RE: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-10 Thread Hollamon, Andrew
This attitude worries me when I see it amongst professional developers.

Not depending on the internal implementation details of something is such a 
fundamental OO and CS tenant, that I cant believe people just accept it as okay.

You should _never_ write code that depends on the deep dark details of that 
particular version's implementation if at all possible to avoid it.  That's 
just bad.

It results in tightly coupled code that will break with minor version upgrades 
or bug fixes in the platform.

A language/framework should publish a contract (whether that be interfaces, 
documentation, or whatever) that users can adhere to, without having to worry 
about how its implemented, which could change from minor version to minor 
version.

A great example is the question of what are all the possible symbols that you 
can pass to the 'head' command in a Rails controller.  Not documented anywhere. 
 You have to dig through the code, and even then its not simply laid out.

There are many cases like that.  Drives me batty.

Mind you, I'm still using Ruby and Rails like crazy right now, because for the 
smaller-ish apps that we do a lot of, it cant be beat.

But stuff like creating implementation dependencies just drives me up the wall.

Andrew

___

Andrew Hollamon
D'Mention Systems, LLC
http://dmnsys.com

[EMAIL PROTECTED]
520-229-8730  office
520-623-3879  fax

Use our online helpdesk:
http://helpdesk.dmnsys.com/





-Original Message-
From: Chad Woolley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 10:31 AM
To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)

snip /

Also, Ruby tends to be so clean that you can often
see what is going on just by digging a short way into the library.
Agreed, for many people (Java developers) would be aghast at (code is
the documentation), and consider it a drawback of Ruby, but I think
that is one of the differences in the cultures.  In dynamic languages
(won't even exclude Groovy), it's so easy to reopen classes and hack
what you want, you spend a lot more time digging in, understanding,
changing, and extending the libraries you use.

snip /

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Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread nlesiecki
If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on  
JRails. With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.


Nick

On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:


Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:

http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and
compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

Ok, troll time:

My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc,
etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
(Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you really
compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
through.

The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of both
worlds?

Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

-- Chad

On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:
One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while  
was out
performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still  
true.


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Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Chad Woolley
It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.

As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
before ;)

Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM
is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

-- Chad

PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on JRails.
 With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.

 Nick

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


 http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and
 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

 Ok, troll time:

 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you really
 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.

 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of both
 worlds?

 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

 -- Chad

 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was
 out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true.

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Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Liz_Ravenwood
heheh  and my language of choice...  java.

Thanks all.  It'll be good to put  your faces to your names at the party.

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering





Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
12/09/2008 02:11 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc

Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)






It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.

As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
before ;)

Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM
is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

-- Chad

PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on 
JRails.
 With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.

 Nick

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


 
http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/


 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and
 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

 Ok, troll time:

 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you really
 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.

 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of both
 worlds?

 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

 -- Chad

 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while 
was
 out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still 
true.

 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended 
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you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply 
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Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Todd Ellermann
Ah ha! Victory is mine!  She takes her first step towards the Groovy darkside 
without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! When you can 
snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will be complete. 
;)
-Todd 
Happy Holidays! 

 ***
Todd R. Ellermann
VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com


Founder Webagogy.com
Researcher Betterwebapp.com


Personal:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
805-850-8044 cell
***


Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a 
WildDevil?
Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;)





From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM
Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)


heheh  and my language of choice...
 java. 

Thanks all.  It'll be good to put
 your faces to your names at the party. 

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering

 



Chad Woolley
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
12/09/2008 02:11 PM 
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org 
 To jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org  
cc 
 
Subject Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy
(was: Any News on the Holiday Party?) 

 
 
 


It was mentioned in the previous thread that this
is not a web app.

As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
before ;)

Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the
JVM
is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

-- Chad

PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
 If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on
JRails.
 With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.

 Nick

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


 http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby
1.9; and
 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

 Ok, troll time:

 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all
the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries,
JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment,
etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that
was designed
 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially
those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when
you really
 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.

 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with
the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely,
all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the
best of both
 worlds?

 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

 -- Chad

 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and
for a while was
 out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that
is still true.

 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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-
 
This email (and all attachments) is for the sole use of the intended 
recipient(s)
and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. Any unauthorized
review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the
intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy
all copies of the original message.

Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Liz_Ravenwood
ah well...   not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside.
;-)

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering





Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
12/09/2008 02:55 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc

Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)






Ah ha! Victory is mine!  She takes her first step towards the Groovy 
darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for her! 
When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your training will 
be complete. 
;)
-Todd 
Happy Holidays! 
 
***
Todd R. Ellermann
VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com

Founder Webagogy.com
Researcher Betterwebapp.com


Personal:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
805-850-8044 cell
***


Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or a 
WildDevil?
Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;)


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM
Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the 
Holiday Party?)


heheh  and my language of choice...  java. 

Thanks all.  It'll be good to put  your faces to your names at the party. 

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering




Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
12/09/2008 02:11 PM 

Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org



To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org 
cc

Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)








It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.

As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
before ;)

Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM
is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

-- Chad

PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby on 
JRails.
 With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.

 Nick

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


 
http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/


 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and
 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

 Ok, troll time:

 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you really
 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.

 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of both
 worlds?

 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

 -- Chad

 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while 
was
 out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still 
true.

 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]



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recipient(s) and may contain privileged and/or proprietary information. 
Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If 
you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply 
e-mail and destroy all

Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Kit Plummer

Darkside?  You know Haskell?

On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



ah well...   not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside.
;-)

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering




Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12/09/2008 02:55 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org

To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc
Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday  
Party?)






Ah ha! Victory is mine!  She takes her first step towards the Groovy  
darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for  
her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your  
training will be complete.

;)
-Todd
Happy Holidays!

***
Todd R. Ellermann
VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com

Founder Webagogy.com
Researcher Betterwebapp.com


Personal:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
805-850-8044 cell
***


Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or  
a WildDevil?

Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;)


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM
Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the  
Holiday Party?)



heheh  and my language of choice...  java.

Thanks all.  It'll be good to put  your faces to your names at the  
party.


Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering



Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12/09/2008 02:11 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc
Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday  
Party?)








It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.

As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
before ;)

Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM
is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

-- Chad

PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
wrote:
 If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby  
on JRails.

 With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.

 Nick

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:


 http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby  
1.9; and

 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.

 Ok, troll time:

 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment,  
etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was  
designed

 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.

 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static  
language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you  
really

 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.

 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby  
ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take  
advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of  
both

 worlds?

 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

 -- Chad

 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann  
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a  
while was

 out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is  
still true.


  
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Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Liz_Ravenwood
Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver?
:-)

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering





Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
12/09/2008 03:36 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc

Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)






Darkside?  You know Haskell?

On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 ah well...   not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside.
 ;-)

 Respectfully,
 Liz, Data Base Administrator,
 Methods Engineering




 Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12/09/2008 02:55 PM
 Please respond to
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org

 To
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 cc
 Subject
 Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
 Party?)





 Ah ha! Victory is mine!  She takes her first step towards the Groovy 
 darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for 
 her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your 
 training will be complete.
 ;)
 -Todd
 Happy Holidays!

 ***
 Todd R. Ellermann
 VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com

 Founder Webagogy.com
 Researcher Betterwebapp.com


 Personal:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 805-850-8044 cell
 ***


 Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or 
 a WildDevil?
 Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;)


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM
 Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the 
 Holiday Party?)


 heheh  and my language of choice...  java.

 Thanks all.  It'll be good to put  your faces to your names at the 
 party.

 Respectfully,
 Liz, Data Base Administrator,
 Methods Engineering



 Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12/09/2008 02:11 PM
 Please respond to
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


 To
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 cc
 Subject
 Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
 Party?)







 It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.

 As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
 question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
 point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
 before ;)

 Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
 users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the JVM
 is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).

 -- Chad

 PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...

 On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
  If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby 
 on JRails.
  With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.
 
  Nick
 
  On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:
 
  Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:
 
 
  
http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

 
  Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 
 1.9; and
  compatibility is good and getting better all the time.
 
  Ok, troll time:
 
  My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
  benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
  execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, 
 etc,
  etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was 
 designed
  to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
  experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.
 
  As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static 
 language
  (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you 
 really
  compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
  through.
 
  The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
  Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
  language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby 
 ecosystem
  is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take 
 advantage
  of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of 
 both
  worlds?
 
  Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.
 
  -- Chad
 
  On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a 
 while was
  out
  performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is 
 still true.
 
  
 -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
  
 -
  To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED

Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Liz_Ravenwood
well.  not from the get-go.

one eye with a set of rods and cones, little photopigments on outer 
membranes reacting to light, isomerizing, creating a graded potential, 
sending the signal to the ganglia and down the optic nerve to the brain.

fun, huh?

Respectfully,
Liz, Data Base Administrator,
Methods Engineering





Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
12/09/2008 04:01 PM
Please respond to
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org


To
jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
cc

Subject
Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
Party?)






I'm guessing you'll have performance requirements - that'll require 
taking advantage of multi-cores, or parallelization?  If so, try that 
Google search again.

On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:45 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  wrote:


 Eddie Haskell from Leave It to Beaver?
 :-)

 Respectfully,
 Liz, Data Base Administrator,
 Methods Engineering




 Kit Plummer [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 12/09/2008 03:36 PM
 Please respond to
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org

 To
 jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 cc
 Subject
 Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday 
 Party?)





 Darkside?  You know Haskell?

 On Dec 9, 2008, at 3:06 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
  ah well...   not the first time I've stumbled into a darkside.
  ;-)
 
  Respectfully,
  Liz, Data Base Administrator,
  Methods Engineering
 
 
 
 
  Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  12/09/2008 02:55 PM
  Please respond to
  jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 
  To
  jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  cc
  Subject
  Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday
  Party?)
 
 
 
 
 
  Ah ha! Victory is mine!  She takes her first step towards the Groovy
  darkside without even knowing it. None of this Ruby rebel scum for
  her! When you can snatch the closure from my hand DBA, then your
  training will be complete.
  ;)
  -Todd
  Happy Holidays!
 
  ***
  Todd R. Ellermann
  VP of Engineering VirtualTourist.com
 
  Founder Webagogy.com
  Researcher Betterwebapp.com
 
 
  Personal:
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  805-850-8044 cell
  ***
 
 
  Does getting an ASU MBA with existing UofA BSCE make me a SunCat? or
  a WildDevil?
  Go Cats! ...said with a Devilish grin ;)
 
 
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Cc: jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  Sent: Tuesday, December 9, 2008 1:47:22 PM
  Subject: Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the
  Holiday Party?)
 
 
  heheh  and my language of choice...  java.
 
  Thanks all.  It'll be good to put  your faces to your names at the
  party.
 
  Respectfully,
  Liz, Data Base Administrator,
  Methods Engineering
 
 
 
  Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  12/09/2008 02:11 PM
  Please respond to
  jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
 
 
  To
  jug-discussion@tucson-jug.org
  cc
  Subject
  Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday
  Party?)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  It was mentioned in the previous thread that this is not a web app.
 
  As for JRuby vs. pure Ruby.  However, this is the JUG list, and the
  question on JRuby performance was my chance to be a troll with a
  point, especially since there's been Groovy vs. Ruby debates on here
  before ;)
 
  Depending on the target deployment environment (windows?  lots of
  users?  Intranet?) JRuby might still be a better choice, since the 
 JVM
  is ubiquitous (and native Ruby on Windows still sucks).
 
  -- Chad
 
  PS: Don't forget the JOrganic JJelly with a side of JJuice...
 
  On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 1:59 PM, nlesiecki [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
   If I was from-scratching a website, I'd definitely look at JRuby
  on JRails.
   With JPeanut sauce on my JTofu.
  
   Nick
  
   On Dec 9, 2008, at 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley wrote:
  
   Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:
  
  
   
http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/

  
   Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby
  1.9; and
   compatibility is good and getting better all the time.
  
   Ok, troll time:
  
   My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
   benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, 
 JVM
   execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment,
  etc,
   etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was
  designed
   to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
   experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.
  
   As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static
  language
   (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you
  really
   compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
   through.
  
   The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with 
 the
   Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely

Re: [jug-discussion] JRuby vs. Groovy (was: Any News on the Holiday Party?)

2008-12-09 Thread Richard Hightower

RE: Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.

From May 08 to Sept 08 Java job demand grew 3 times higher (in raw numbers)
than the total Ruby market. But let's not mere facts get in the way of your
Java is dead argument. Java continues to dwarf Ruby. And, Ruby does not
seem to be picking up a lot of ground. Sure if you start from zero,
percentage of growth sky rockets, but Not enough.

BTW I prefer Groovy, but I won't claim Ruby is dead.

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java+programming%2C+ruby+programmingl=

http://www.indeed.com/jobtrends?q=java%2C+rubyl=

I am glad to see that Spring source is backing Groovy. I wonder why they did
not back Jruby in a similar manner. H

On 12/9/08 12:04 PM, Chad Woolley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Here's the latest performance numbers on JRuby:
 
 http://antoniocangiano.com/2008/12/09/the-great-ruby-shootout-december-2008/
 
 Summary - JRuby is doing very well; came in second after Ruby 1.9; and
 compatibility is good and getting better all the time.
 
 Ok, troll time:
 
 My opinion - definitely try JRuby over Groovy.  You get all the
 benefits of the Java ecosystem: native calls to java libraries, JVM
 execution, JIT compilation, packaging, war/ear-based deployment, etc,
 etc.  Most importantly, however, you get a language that was designed
 to make people happy.  Most Rubyists - especially those with
 experience in other languages - agree it achieves this goal well.
 
 As for Groovy, I still say it is an attempt to make a static language
 (Java) appear dynamic.  They've done a decent job, but when you really
 compare it to using native Ruby, the warts and sharp edges poke
 through.
 
 The only argument I see in favor of Groovy is integration with the
 Java ecosystem, which JRuby effectively negates.  Conversely, all
 language or syntax preference or prejudice aside, the Ruby ecosystem
 is also very rich (rubygems and github), and you cannot take advantage
 of this with Groovy.  Why not be able to choose from the best of both
 worlds?
 
 Java is dead, long live the JVM.  JRuby FTW in the enterprise.
 
 -- Chad
 
 On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Todd Ellermann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 One more side note.  JRuby runs on the JVM as well, and for a while was out
 performing the native Ruby interpreters. Not sure if that is still true.
 
 -
 To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 



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