Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

2016-02-11 Thread Martin Graesslin 
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:06:33 PM CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:06:57 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 10:08:19 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:03:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:15:21 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > > > I'll also start a new sub-thread.
> > > > > Since this vision draft is very broad: what kind of projects do you
> > > > > consider  to be covered by this vision draft ?
> > > > > Or, the other way round, are there projects, or types of projects
> > > > > which
> > > > > you see as not part of this vision ?
> > 
> > I don't know what exactly you mean with "being covered by" or "see as part
> > of the vision", but let's assume "projects that identify with the goals
> > described in our vision.
> > 
> > > > Sure. Projects that use open source licenses for purely economical
> > > > reasons, or those that don't care about the user, or her privacy.
> > > > 
> > > > A lot of it is about priorities, and the reason why people work on
> > > > these
> > > > project, their goals.
> > > 
> > > Let's get a bit more concrete.
> > > So I guess most GNU projects would fit ? Bash, gcc, emacs ?
> > 
> > GCC and Emacs (I couldn't find info about bash) require copyright
> > assigment
> > through a mandatory contributor license agreements *1. That would be
> > against KDE's manifesto. It makes sense to work together, but we disagree
> > about the how to do it.
> 
> so do I understand correctly that in general you would consider projects
> like a shell, a compiler and a text-mode editor as potential KDE projects ?
> 
> What's your opinion on one of the original goals of KDE to provide a set of
> software with a consistent look & feel and usability, stuff like common
> printing dialogs, file dialog, help systems, dialog layouts, etc, etc. ?
> 
> > > What about non-software projects like Project Gutenberg (free books),
> > > Jamendo  (free indie music), SubSurfWiki.org (free knowledge) ?
> > > Paraview (empowering students and scientists) ?
> > 
> > The draft states clear that we do Free software.
> 
> There's also a thin line here.
> Most web sites require some programming. Some more, some less. E.g. a
> knowledge site could have some special code for presenting/visualizing data,
> a music site could have custom solutions for streaming, etc.
> Where do you draw the line ?

Why should there be a line? So turning it around: if I start a cloud service 
within KDE to have KWin run in the cloud so that everyone can connect to it 
through a web browser, would that now start excluding KWin from KDE? If that 
then gets used to run Amarok in the cloud to stream music would that exclude 
Amarok from KDE?

Certainly not. And that's the problem I have with your approach. It's a two 
class world: everything which originates inside KDE is fine, but if it would 
come into KDE it's "No, no, that's not what we do!"

So instead of asking yourself what might join, please start to think where KDE 
might be going with their existing projects and derive your "line" from there.

Cheers
Martin

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

2016-02-11 Thread Sebastian Kügler 
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 10:08:19 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:03:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:15:21 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > I'll also start a new sub-thread.
> > > Since this vision draft is very broad: what kind of projects do you
> > > consider  to be covered by this vision draft ?
> > > Or, the other way round, are there projects, or types of projects which
> > > you see as not part of this vision ?

I don't know what exactly you mean with "being covered by" or "see as part of 
the vision", but let's assume "projects that identify with the goals described 
in our vision.

> > Sure. Projects that use open source licenses for purely economical
> > reasons, or those that don't care about the user, or her privacy.
> >
> > A lot of it is about priorities, and the reason why people work on these
> > project, their goals.
> 
> Let's get a bit more concrete.
> So I guess most GNU projects would fit ? Bash, gcc, emacs ?

GCC and Emacs (I couldn't find info about bash) require copyright assigment 
through a mandatory contributor license agreements *1. That would be against 
KDE's manifesto. It makes sense to work together, but we disagree about the 
how to do it.

> What about non-software projects like Project Gutenberg (free books),
> Jamendo  (free indie music), SubSurfWiki.org (free knowledge) ?
> Paraview (empowering students and scientists) ?

The draft states clear that we do Free software.

*1 https://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html
   http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/CONTRIBUTE

-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org

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Re: [kde-community] Vision, mission and manifesto - what is their definition and purpose?

2016-02-11 Thread Sebastian Kügler 
On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 09:42:31 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > Also, what do you think about the relation between vision and mission ?
> >
> > When I joined the "vision team", my original proposal was to only define a
> > mission, because I felt that visions make more sense for products than for
> > communities.
> > However, Lydia convinced me that having a common vision for the future to
> > work towards can have more positive effect on a sense of purpose and
> > motivation than only defining a strategy, so I agreed to define a vision
> > first and then derive the mission from that.
> 
> That's just Lydias opinion.

No need for this, not even if you think it's funny. For the record, it's *not* 
just Lydia's opinion, so don't try to give that impression.

> No, seriously, in the last weeks several people contacted me in private
> email  and expressed that they are not exactly happy, some even seriously
> frustrated with the strong emphasis on non-technical topics in KDE in the
> last few years, and they would prefer to get some more emphasis on
> technology and products back.

You know, same here: People express concerns about people who want to steer 
KDE into a self-fullfilling, narrow-minded playground project. You know what I 
tell them: Please take part in the open discussions about that -- that is why 
we're having these discussions.

In a do-ocracy such as KDE, you take part and are able to influence direction, 
or you stand at the sidelines and watch, but you don't stand at the sidelines 
and watch and dictate through backdoor politics.

> This (obviously) includes me. Maybe this also includes many of the people
> who  said "vision, strategy and focus" in the evolve-survey ?
> 
> Sorry to be blunt: for me, a catchy one-sentence-vision statement *alone* 
> won't impress me, everyone has one today. It won't give me a sense of
> purpose  or anything. It's just a catchy phrase. Maybe I'm too old for
> that.

Could you please try to stick to the facts and ontopic -- then you wouldn't 
have to be blunt. I think this discussion is hard enough to follow as it is 
already: Nobody requires the vision statement to be just one sentence, we want 
to try to make it as clear as possible. It's not like we're not limited to 140 
characters here. Please don't throw such strawmen into the discussion.

> Anyway, I think vision and mission should be defined together, otherwise
> we'll  get ugly discussions once we have decided on the vision, and get
> into mission- land.

As I said, I think your draft makes a fine mission statement, we could amend 
the vision draft we came up with.
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

2016-02-11 Thread Riccardo Iaconelli 
On 11 February 2016 at 22:06, Alexander Neundorf  wrote:

> so do I understand correctly that in general you would consider projects
> like
> a shell, a compiler and a text-mode editor as potential KDE projects ?
>

I honestly still find it strange that in this discussion we insist on
drawing a circle defining "what is/can be KDE" (which, once more, is not
what the vision would be supposed to mean) way smaller than what KDE
already is.

Honestly, after all these words, I don't think that this is a "focused"
vision, but more of an "exclusive" one (from the verb "to exclude"). In my
opinion this somehow invalidates the proposal itself, as it will be
inapplicable to already existing, live and vibrant KDE projects.

Bye,
-Riccardo
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Re: [kde-community] Vision, mission and manifesto - what is their definition and purpose?

2016-02-11 Thread Alexander Neundorf 
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 01:22:02 Thomas Pfeiffer wrote:
> On Mittwoch, 10. Februar 2016 21:42:31 CET Alexander Neundorf wrote:
...
> A vision statement alone doesn't do much, either. A mission is needed to
> turn vision into strategy.

Yes. :-)

> > Anyway, I think vision and mission should be defined together, otherwise
> > we'll get ugly discussions once we have decided on the vision, and get
> > into mission- land.
> 
> The discussions cannot be avoided (though I believe they don't have to be
> ugly!), but it seems to me that the two "camps" are much closer in their
> ultimate goal than they are in what they see as the best strategy to achieve
> it.
> So what is bad about first declaring what we agree on and then debate on the
> level where we actually disagree?

The vision may leave quite a bit of room for interpretation, especially since 
it will be short. Some may understand one thing, some may understand another 
thing. This will lead to more conflicts later on due to misunderstandings 
(like "we cannot put this into the mission because it contradicts the vision, 
which we already agreed on.")

As a real example, there are people who understand "The project stays true to 
established practices common to similar KDE projects" from the manifesto as 
"if it has a GUI, the GUI is done with Qt".
The "inclusive" draft explicitely does not put any limits to 
technologies/libraries. One group can with good right say "this contradicts 
the manifesto !", while another group can with similar good rights say "gtk is 
perfectly fine, since the manifesto doesn't mention Qt !".
I think such conflicts could be reduced if it was worded more clearly, or if 
vision+mission are created together.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] finding a clear vision for KDE - first draft for discussion

2016-02-11 Thread Alexander Neundorf 
On Thursday, February 11, 2016 10:06:57 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 10, 2016 10:08:19 PM Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:03:47 Sebastian Kügler wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, February 09, 2016 23:15:21 Alexander Neundorf wrote:
> > > > I'll also start a new sub-thread.
> > > > Since this vision draft is very broad: what kind of projects do you
> > > > consider  to be covered by this vision draft ?
> > > > Or, the other way round, are there projects, or types of projects
> > > > which
> > > > you see as not part of this vision ?
> 
> I don't know what exactly you mean with "being covered by" or "see as part
> of the vision", but let's assume "projects that identify with the goals
> described in our vision.
> 
> > > Sure. Projects that use open source licenses for purely economical
> > > reasons, or those that don't care about the user, or her privacy.
> > > 
> > > A lot of it is about priorities, and the reason why people work on these
> > > project, their goals.
> > 
> > Let's get a bit more concrete.
> > So I guess most GNU projects would fit ? Bash, gcc, emacs ?
> 
> GCC and Emacs (I couldn't find info about bash) require copyright assigment
> through a mandatory contributor license agreements *1. That would be against
> KDE's manifesto. It makes sense to work together, but we disagree about the
> how to do it.

so do I understand correctly that in general you would consider projects like 
a shell, a compiler and a text-mode editor as potential KDE projects ?

What's your opinion on one of the original goals of KDE to provide a set of 
software with a consistent look & feel and usability, stuff like common 
printing dialogs, file dialog, help systems, dialog layouts, etc, etc. ?


> > What about non-software projects like Project Gutenberg (free books),
> > Jamendo  (free indie music), SubSurfWiki.org (free knowledge) ?
> > Paraview (empowering students and scientists) ?
> 
> The draft states clear that we do Free software.

There's also a thin line here.
Most web sites require some programming. Some more, some less. E.g. a 
knowledge site could have some special code for presenting/visualizing data, a 
music site could have custom solutions for streaming, etc.
Where do you draw the line ?

Alex

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[kde-community] ownCloud and KDE integration for GSOC

2016-02-11 Thread Jos Poortvliet 
Hi KDE fans, users and contributors ;-)

GNOME has some nice ownCloud integration already and more work might be done 
for GSOC. Perhaps there are some students among you interested in doing 
something cool on the KDE side, too? We will apply ourselves to GSOC but, if 
not accepted, I'm sure ownCloud/KDE integration proposals would be accepted by 
the KDE GSOC team.

See our wiki with ideas:
https://github.com/owncloud/core/wiki/Google-Summer-of-Code

Cheers,
Jos

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