Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
On 19.09.19 20:58, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 19:35:53 CEST schrieb Nate Graham:
>> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
>>> More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
>>> handling or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really
>>> need politicians to decide for you that you should look at what you
>>> consume and do and what harm it does to others, and then adopt things
>>> accordingly? Are you really all helpless victims of the bad evil system?
>>> Not responsible for the damage you create, because "politicians did not
>>> put a bin here, their fault that I drop my garbage on the ground"?
>>
>> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that
>> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take
>> individual action!
> 
> So you have internalized that? ;)
> 
>> But it is not enough, and it never will be.
> 
> Yes. And no-where did I (intent to) say otherwise.
> 
> In case you missed my point, allow me to repeat it:
> asking others to move first, while not moving oneself is not a convincing 
> argument. To be a serious proposer for a goal, one should show that one 
> strives to the goal already.

We are encouraging people to join the Global Climate strike, yes. But
who says we're not doing the same?
I, for one, am not only participating in the strike, I'm helping as a
steward ("Ordner" in German).
And talking to some people in KDE, I've realized that many of them
weren't even aware of the strike, but when they learned about it, they
thought it was a good thing.
So by informing people about the strike, we can maybe help make it grow
larger. That is a good thing.

> KDE as organization so far has not. And thus so far is not a convincing 
> supporter of the goal. Like a car company which does blabla about how small 
> EVs should be used by people rather and how they might build some in the 
> future, but currently selling big SUVs and wasting lots of resources (and it 
> does not matter what worker privately do, when it comes to company business).
> Having lip-only supporters as allies is not helping, it's hard to trust them.

> And actually it harms an organisation as well if it shouts "save the world!" 
> but has not shown own efforts. Like someone eating meat and mumbling "people 
> should eat vegetarian". Who should feel motivated to change things for you, 
> who takes you serious?

It is true that environmental protection has not been high on our agenda
in the past, but the board has started looking into the topic late last
year, and in July the membership of KDE e.V. has started drafting an
environmental responsibility policy.
It will still take a while to finish because while there is broad
consensus that it's a good idea, there is a wide range of opinions about
the details.

I don't think anybody believes we should stop at that, though. There are
already more ideas, such as focusing our software on energy-saving or
supporting older hardware, cooperating with eco-friendly hardware
manufacturers or encouraging our current hardware partners to make more
sustainable hardware.

> If you look at history, politicians will also not be really impressed by 
> peaceful strikes, other than looking where they need to adapt their image. 
> The 
> numbers they look at are poll results

Yes, and poll results are affected by voters' opinion being influenced
by images of protests.

Before Fridays for Future started, climate change was ranking pretty low
in people's priorities. Now, for example, 63% of Germans believe that
climate protection should take precedence over economic growth [1]. When
even Germans think that, that says a lot.

Of course FFF wasn't the only thing that happened between then and now,
we've also had several temperature records, news of melting ice caps and
burning forests so there is no clear causal link, but I still believe
that when people see so many young people out on the streets every week,
it does affect them.

> And the numbers business looks at are sales results. If you want to change 
> things with them, use those numbers. Or become politician or business and try 
> to do the right thing.
> And that's also how real strikes work; business not being able to make 
> business, to pressure business leaders' mind to change.

School kids not going to school does bother people, as evidenced by lots
of people having a strong opinion about it, one way or another. Why is
it not a "real strike" just because those striking are still in school?

> I would like to see KDE here being long-term serious, and not just doing an 
> ad-hoc "yes, evilevil, we agree, protest against it, people, are we not also 
> good (and back to current harmful business)", without existing track.

I want KDE to do both!
I want us to use our reach to inform people about climate action, and of
course I also want us to do our part to save our planet!
But who says we can't do both?

Cheers,

Re: Re[2]: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Valorie Zimmerman
Good question, Jake.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 3:07 PM Jay tay  wrote:

> Why does race, gender etc. Even have to be discussed. More politics in a
> non political place. I'd rather talk about tech and furthering this
> project. This is ridiculous.
>
> --
> Jake A.
>
::snip old::

The reason the issue is important is that many of our potential
contributors have been driven away, and are now being driven away. This
hinders our tech development. Sorry, anywhere humans collectively do things
together is by definition "political".

Our discussion is all about furthering this project and the FOSS community
as a whole, so we can make good tech that suits the needs of all of us.

Valorie

-- 
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her


Re[2]: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Jay tay
Why does race, gender etc. Even have to be discussed. More politics in a non 
political place. I'd rather talk about tech and furthering this project. This 
is ridiculous.

--
Jake A.

Thursday, 19 September 2019, 05:12p.m. -04:00 from Ingo Klöcker 
kloec...@kde.org:

On Donnerstag, 19. September 2019 14:48:28 CEST John Tapsell wrote:
> Now using the term "race" is "copying racists"? Wtf?

Language barrier problem. Unlike in English, in German, the literal
translation of the term "race", i.e. "Rasse", has a different meaning than the
English term "race". In particular, the German term "Rasse" cannot and must
not be applied to humans, but only to animals.

Regards,
Ingo


Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday? - Proposal

2019-09-19 Thread Albert Astals Cid
El dijous, 19 de setembre de 2019, a les 23:20:29 CEST, Lew Wolfgang va 
escriure:
> On 9/19/19 7:45 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:
> > What do we choose? Climate Action. When do we choose it? Now.
> 
> Okay, this is a leap too far.  Politics should not be introduced here, and it 
> is "Politics".
> 
> I'm out of here, Maybe Gnome isn't "woke"?
> 
> Now, how do I unsubscribe from this off-topic list?

You were smart enough to subscribe, you're smart enough to unsubscribe.

Best of luck,
  Albert

> 
> Regards,
> Lew
> 
> 






Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday? - Proposal

2019-09-19 Thread Lew Wolfgang

On 9/19/19 7:45 AM, Martin Steigerwald wrote:

What do we choose? Climate Action. When do we choose it? Now.


Okay, this is a leap too far.  Politics should not be introduced here, and it is 
"Politics".

I'm out of here, Maybe Gnome isn't "woke"?

Now, how do I unsubscribe from this off-topic list?

Regards,
Lew



Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Ingo Klöcker
On Donnerstag, 19. September 2019 14:48:28 CEST John Tapsell wrote:
> Now using the term "race" is "copying racists"? Wtf?

Language barrier problem. Unlike in English, in German, the literal 
translation of the term "race", i.e. "Rasse", has a different meaning than the 
English term "race". In particular, the German term "Rasse" cannot and must 
not be applied to humans, but only to animals.

Regards,
Ingo


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Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Valorie Zimmerman
Thanks for all the input so far, especially from Lydia on behalf of the
Board.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:17 PM Nate Graham  wrote:

> I find it amusing that there is such diversity in interpretations of
> what "ensure diversity" means. :)
>
> Some people seem to interpret it to mean "remove institutional barriers
> and bias faced by non-straight-white-male candidates" and other people
> interpret it to mean "prefer and promote non-straight-white-male
> candidates over others".
>
> These are different things, and if we don't agree on what is being
> proposed, it's easy to accidentally argue against something you may
> actually approve of because it was expressed using terms that did not
> mean what you thought they mean.
>

+1

So instead of using ambiguous turns of phrase likely to provoke an
> argument over definition of terms, how about we just be clear and say
> what we mean?
>
> By "ensure diversity", are we talking about "remove institutional
> barriers and bias faced by non-straight-white-male candidates"? Or
> something else?
>
> Nate
>

When I say diversity, I mean removing barriers and bias. I would hope that
*all* of our actions, including our code, accomplish that. This is why one
of our values is accessiblility, why we stress internationalization, have
active translation teams and welcome all people to the community. As Harald
said, we " ought to encourage and light the way."

Valorie


> On 9/19/19 5:54 AM, Nadeem Hasan wrote:
> > It is amazing to see as we reach the year 2020, the amount of ignorance
> > (willful or otherwise) regarding what ensuring diversity means among the
> > educated adults in this group.
> >
> > The call to ensure diversity does not mean choosing someone less
> > qualified who is not "white straight male" for the "sake" of diversity.
> > It means removing any hurdles that have been institutionally put in
> > place to prevent such a person from being selected for a leadership role
> > even if they are well qualified.
> >
> > Regards.
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 6:48 AM Harald Sitter  > > wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jens  > > wrote:
> >  >
> >  > TBH I worry less about past transgressions or the communicative
> > fallout
> >  > than I do a lack of response from us. (this is me not having a
> > blessed
> >  > clue what exactly went down 2009)
> >  >
> >  > I do agree with you on many points and I think you raise a lot of
> > good
> >  > concerns at the same time, we missed the boat then to comment -
> what
> >  > we're seeing now is not a boat ten years travelled, but a new one
> >  > launched from shore so to speak.
> >  >
> >  > I think with a bit of finesse we can use it as a voice of support
> for
> >  > FSF, a hope to ensure a leadership that can better serve the FSF
> as
> >  > well as weave it into a comment on our commitment for the same -
> > AND do
> >  > so in a way that can include the ideological diversity of KDE.
> >  >
> >  > In practice (FOR EXAMPLE):
> >  > "We support the FSF in its work to find a new President and would
> > urge
> >  > them to find one that represent the Free Software movement as a
> whole
> >  > and can grow the entirety of the community.
> >  > We all (the KDE community included) have to ensure that past
> > biases do
> >  > not limit our choices of leadership and that access to Free
> Software,
> >  > the technologies and the communities isn't blocked by those same
> > biases
> >  > and cultures."
> >
> > +1 to what Jens said in the entire thread.
> >
> > I will add that I don't think we need to publicly talk to or about
> the
> > FSF specifically though, but maybe I am just not grasping the scope
> of
> > the incident there. Perhaps we should; after all, while the FSF is a
> > separate organization it is still the figure head of the free
> software
> > movement as a whole. We are part of the movement and so our opinion
> > matters and we should make it heard. At the same time I am not sure
> > what wagging a finger in the particular direction of the FSF
> > accomplishes.
> >
> > With that in mind I would propose that we make a statement, but not
> to
> > the FSF... our statement should be one in support of a healthy,
> > diverse and inclusive free software community to that very community
> > at large. This applies to the FSF, to GNOME, to us, we all need to be
> > aware of our own biases so we can prevent bias-driven decision making
> > and foster diversity.
> >
> > KDE's statement ought to encourage and light the way.
> >
> > HS
>

-- 
http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Agustín Benito
Hello,


On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 18:58 Thomas Pfeiffer,  wrote:

> On 19.09.19 11:48, Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote:
> > Hello again,
> >
> > a clarification from my side...
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:16 AM Agustín Benito 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hello,
> >>
> >> I am against this. I find disrespectful to tell a fellow organization
> what they should do. I would feel the same way if anybody does it to us.
> >>
> >
> > KDE eV is not an affiliate of the FSF but the FSFE. We are not
> > "fellows" in strict sense of the FSF then. It does not change the
> > meaning though, but accuracy is good.
>
> What Valorie was referring to is that the FSF is on our advisory board,
> which is true.
> Both FSFE and FSF are on our advisory board.
>

I see. Thanks for the correction.

>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Nate Graham
I find it amusing that there is such diversity in interpretations of 
what "ensure diversity" means. :)


Some people seem to interpret it to mean "remove institutional barriers 
and bias faced by non-straight-white-male candidates" and other people 
interpret it to mean "prefer and promote non-straight-white-male 
candidates over others".


These are different things, and if we don't agree on what is being 
proposed, it's easy to accidentally argue against something you may 
actually approve of because it was expressed using terms that did not 
mean what you thought they mean.


So instead of using ambiguous turns of phrase likely to provoke an 
argument over definition of terms, how about we just be clear and say 
what we mean?


By "ensure diversity", are we talking about "remove institutional 
barriers and bias faced by non-straight-white-male candidates"? Or 
something else?



Nate



On 9/19/19 5:54 AM, Nadeem Hasan wrote:
It is amazing to see as we reach the year 2020, the amount of ignorance 
(willful or otherwise) regarding what ensuring diversity means among the 
educated adults in this group.


The call to ensure diversity does not mean choosing someone less 
qualified who is not "white straight male" for the "sake" of diversity. 
It means removing any hurdles that have been institutionally put in 
place to prevent such a person from being selected for a leadership role 
even if they are well qualified.


Regards.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 6:48 AM Harald Sitter > wrote:


On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jens mailto:j...@ohyran.se>> wrote:
 >
 > TBH I worry less about past transgressions or the communicative
fallout
 > than I do a lack of response from us. (this is me not having a
blessed
 > clue what exactly went down 2009)
 >
 > I do agree with you on many points and I think you raise a lot of
good
 > concerns at the same time, we missed the boat then to comment - what
 > we're seeing now is not a boat ten years travelled, but a new one
 > launched from shore so to speak.
 >
 > I think with a bit of finesse we can use it as a voice of support for
 > FSF, a hope to ensure a leadership that can better serve the FSF as
 > well as weave it into a comment on our commitment for the same -
AND do
 > so in a way that can include the ideological diversity of KDE.
 >
 > In practice (FOR EXAMPLE):
 > "We support the FSF in its work to find a new President and would
urge
 > them to find one that represent the Free Software movement as a whole
 > and can grow the entirety of the community.
 > We all (the KDE community included) have to ensure that past
biases do
 > not limit our choices of leadership and that access to Free Software,
 > the technologies and the communities isn't blocked by those same
biases
 > and cultures."

+1 to what Jens said in the entire thread.

I will add that I don't think we need to publicly talk to or about the
FSF specifically though, but maybe I am just not grasping the scope of
the incident there. Perhaps we should; after all, while the FSF is a
separate organization it is still the figure head of the free software
movement as a whole. We are part of the movement and so our opinion
matters and we should make it heard. At the same time I am not sure
what wagging a finger in the particular direction of the FSF
accomplishes.

With that in mind I would propose that we make a statement, but not to
the FSF... our statement should be one in support of a healthy,
diverse and inclusive free software community to that very community
at large. This applies to the FSF, to GNOME, to us, we all need to be
aware of our own biases so we can prevent bias-driven decision making
and foster diversity.

KDE's statement ought to encourage and light the way.

HS





Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread John Tapsell
Now using the term "race" is "copying racists"? Wtf?



On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 21:37 Friedrich W. H. Kossebau, 
wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 10:31:38 CEST schrieb Christian Loosli:
> > I think that people should be elected into positions based on their
> > suitability for that position, which means that things like sex, gender,
> > race, cultural background, sexual orientation etc. pp.
>
> Race? Sounds like people are proposing there are human races?
>
> You might be reusing phrases here by people you think are out there for a
> more
> humanist world, but please reflect a bit on this very term, and if it
> makes
> sense to copycat that phrase and if it really represent what you are
> thinking.
> And if you are not actually copying terms and ideas of racists, when you
> might
> not be one.
>
> Cheers
> Friedrich
>
>
>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Nadeem Hasan
It is amazing to see as we reach the year 2020, the amount of ignorance
(willful or otherwise) regarding what ensuring diversity means among the
educated adults in this group.

The call to ensure diversity does not mean choosing someone less qualified
who is not "white straight male" for the "sake" of diversity. It means
removing any hurdles that have been institutionally put in place to prevent
such a person from being selected for a leadership role even if they are
well qualified.

Regards.

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019, 6:48 AM Harald Sitter  wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jens  wrote:
> >
> > TBH I worry less about past transgressions or the communicative fallout
> > than I do a lack of response from us. (this is me not having a blessed
> > clue what exactly went down 2009)
> >
> > I do agree with you on many points and I think you raise a lot of good
> > concerns at the same time, we missed the boat then to comment - what
> > we're seeing now is not a boat ten years travelled, but a new one
> > launched from shore so to speak.
> >
> > I think with a bit of finesse we can use it as a voice of support for
> > FSF, a hope to ensure a leadership that can better serve the FSF as
> > well as weave it into a comment on our commitment for the same - AND do
> > so in a way that can include the ideological diversity of KDE.
> >
> > In practice (FOR EXAMPLE):
> > "We support the FSF in its work to find a new President and would urge
> > them to find one that represent the Free Software movement as a whole
> > and can grow the entirety of the community.
> > We all (the KDE community included) have to ensure that past biases do
> > not limit our choices of leadership and that access to Free Software,
> > the technologies and the communities isn't blocked by those same biases
> > and cultures."
>
> +1 to what Jens said in the entire thread.
>
> I will add that I don't think we need to publicly talk to or about the
> FSF specifically though, but maybe I am just not grasping the scope of
> the incident there. Perhaps we should; after all, while the FSF is a
> separate organization it is still the figure head of the free software
> movement as a whole. We are part of the movement and so our opinion
> matters and we should make it heard. At the same time I am not sure
> what wagging a finger in the particular direction of the FSF
> accomplishes.
>
> With that in mind I would propose that we make a statement, but not to
> the FSF... our statement should be one in support of a healthy,
> diverse and inclusive free software community to that very community
> at large. This applies to the FSF, to GNOME, to us, we all need to be
> aware of our own biases so we can prevent bias-driven decision making
> and foster diversity.
>
> KDE's statement ought to encourage and light the way.
>
> HS
>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread John Tapsell
I also agree with us insisting on only preapproved skin color and
genitals.


On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 11:59 Valorie Zimmerman, 
wrote:

> As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF.
> However, his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory
> Board, according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php
>
> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
> diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-directors.
> If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board to do
> this on our behalf.
>
> All the best,
>
> Valorie
>
> --
> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>
>
>


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 19:35:53 CEST schrieb Nate Graham:
> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
> > handling or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really
> > need politicians to decide for you that you should look at what you
> > consume and do and what harm it does to others, and then adopt things
> > accordingly? Are you really all helpless victims of the bad evil system?
> > Not responsible for the damage you create, because "politicians did not
> > put a bin here, their fault that I drop my garbage on the ground"?
> 
> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that
> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take
> individual action!

So you have internalized that? ;)

> But it is not enough, and it never will be.

Yes. And no-where did I (intent to) say otherwise.

In case you missed my point, allow me to repeat it:
asking others to move first, while not moving oneself is not a convincing 
argument. To be a serious proposer for a goal, one should show that one 
strives to the goal already.

KDE as organization so far has not. And thus so far is not a convincing 
supporter of the goal. Like a car company which does blabla about how small 
EVs should be used by people rather and how they might build some in the 
future, but currently selling big SUVs and wasting lots of resources (and it 
does not matter what worker privately do, when it comes to company business).
Having lip-only supporters as allies is not helping, it's hard to trust them.

And actually it harms an organisation as well if it shouts "save the world!" 
but has not shown own efforts. Like someone eating meat and mumbling "people 
should eat vegetarian". Who should feel motivated to change things for you, 
who takes you serious?

If you look at history, politicians will also not be really impressed by 
peaceful strikes, other than looking where they need to adapt their image. The 
numbers they look at are poll results
And the numbers business looks at are sales results. If you want to change 
things with them, use those numbers. Or become politician or business and try 
to do the right thing.
And that's also how real strikes work; business not being able to make 
business, to pressure business leaders' mind to change.

I would like to see KDE here being long-term serious, and not just doing an 
ad-hoc "yes, evilevil, we agree, protest against it, people, are we not also 
good (and back to current harmful business)", without existing track.

Cheers
Friedrich




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
+1 


tor 2019-09-19 klockan 11:35 -0600 skrev Nate Graham:
> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
> > handling
> > or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need
> > politicians
> > to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do
> > and what
> > harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you
> > really all
> > helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the
> > damage you
> > create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault
> > that I drop
> > my garbage on the ground"?
> 
> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea
> that 
> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take 
> individual action! But it is not enough, and it never will be.
> 
> I personally have spent over $50,000 in the last year to make my
> house 
> carbon-negative through a combination of energy efficiency
> improvements, 
> replacement of gas appliances with electric versions, and
> installation 
> of a large solar array. I plan to buy an electric car in the next
> year 
> or two so that my day-to-day personal fossil fuel consumption is
> zero. 
> But still, it's not enough! These actions amount to a drop in the
> bucket 
> despite having been accomplished at great personal cost. None of my 
> neighbors have seen fit to do the same. And it does not offset the 
> fossil fuel consumption of the plastic in the products I buy and
> their 
> packaging, or the multiple international plane trips I now take to 
> attend KDE events.
> 
> Generally there are no alternatives to polluting actions such as
> these. 
> There is no electric train powered by renewably-generated
> electricity 
> that I can take to cross the ocean. Almost always there is no 
> alternative product made entirely of wood or metal, or wrapped in
> paper 
> instead of plastic.
> 
> Only through collective action can a problem of this magnitude
> actually 
> be addressed. We must imbue our organizations with our values so
> that 
> the system itself tilts in the direction of fixing the problem 
> automatically. Our own personal moral righteousness is not enough
> and 
> never will be.
> 
> 
> Nate
> 



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Nate Graham

On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:

More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually handling
or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need politicians
to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do and what
harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you really all
helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the damage you
create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault that I drop
my garbage on the ground"?


It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that 
each individual must take action on their own. And we should take 
individual action! But it is not enough, and it never will be.


I personally have spent over $50,000 in the last year to make my house 
carbon-negative through a combination of energy efficiency improvements, 
replacement of gas appliances with electric versions, and installation 
of a large solar array. I plan to buy an electric car in the next year 
or two so that my day-to-day personal fossil fuel consumption is zero. 
But still, it's not enough! These actions amount to a drop in the bucket 
despite having been accomplished at great personal cost. None of my 
neighbors have seen fit to do the same. And it does not offset the 
fossil fuel consumption of the plastic in the products I buy and their 
packaging, or the multiple international plane trips I now take to 
attend KDE events.


Generally there are no alternatives to polluting actions such as these. 
There is no electric train powered by renewably-generated electricity 
that I can take to cross the ocean. Almost always there is no 
alternative product made entirely of wood or metal, or wrapped in paper 
instead of plastic.


Only through collective action can a problem of this magnitude actually 
be addressed. We must imbue our organizations with our values so that 
the system itself tilts in the direction of fixing the problem 
automatically. Our own personal moral righteousness is not enough and 
never will be.



Nate



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Hi Thomas,

Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 15:04:41 CEST schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer:
> Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which is
> why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy (it's
> currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we first
> thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even more.

Okay, that's promising a bit.

> However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
> Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
> to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
> effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing our
> audience about the strike.

And this is what I have been concerned about. That this is just a sudden 
gesture following mainstream, so "we also have done something! we are also 
part of the good ones! (now back to current harmful practice)".
Actually this is blurring the amount of things which would need to be done to 
get serious effects for real, and also not helping to find what actually can 
be done here.
What I said is said in the context that I have not seen serious targeted KDE 
community activity WRT environment destruction matters. And thus am totally 
unsure if the overall KDE community is a reliable partner here for those who 
work on fixing the world WRT environment damage. Or if most here do not care, 
or even dispute it or their personal responsibility to adapt their lifestyle.
Heck, KDE members use Gmail & other questionable services despite the claim to 
aspire "[a] world in which everyone has control over their digital life and 
enjoys freedom and privacy.". So what level of being serious can be expected 
here?

More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually handling 
or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need politicians 
to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do and what 
harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you really all 
helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the damage you 
create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault that I drop 
my garbage on the ground"?

Who actually are the people striking against? Any chance it could be: 
themselves? To me this is rather destructive activism, organized shifting of 
responsibility to others/the system, with a dose of self-celebration. And 
stealing focus from those who are active, but missing e.g. proper promotion.

Has Free Software been created by striking?

Do not black the pages, list the solutions/approaches known so people can do 
act now in more responsible ways.

Cheers
Friedrich




Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
On 19.09.19 11:48, Agustin Benito (toscalix) wrote:
> Hello again,
> 
> a clarification from my side...
> 
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:16 AM Agustín Benito  wrote:
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am against this. I find disrespectful to tell a fellow organization what 
>> they should do. I would feel the same way if anybody does it to us.
>>
> 
> KDE eV is not an affiliate of the FSF but the FSFE. We are not
> "fellows" in strict sense of the FSF then. It does not change the
> meaning though, but accuracy is good.

What Valorie was referring to is that the FSF is on our advisory board,
which is true.
Both FSFE and FSF are on our advisory board.


Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday? - Proposal

2019-09-19 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Hi Thomas.

Thomas Pfeiffer - 19.09.19, 15:35:27 CEST:
> Here is a concrete proposal which I've just brought up on the promo
> channel and which seems to gain support there:
> 
> - Add a banner on our website _today_ informing about the Global
> Climate Strike which starts tomorrow and telling that we support it
> (not covering the whole website, just big enough that people notice
> it)
> - Post on social media _today_, telling people that we think the
> strike is important
> - Do _not_ use the JavaScript which does the "blackout" tomorrow.
> 
> Reasoning:
[…]
> Would anybody have serious concerns about that?

I fully support this beautiful proposal!

Many thanks, Thomas.

What do we choose? Climate Action. When do we choose it? Now.

(I know it is a slight, but I feel important variation of what I heard 
and also sung on the demonstrations.)

:)

Best,
-- 
Martin




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Hi!

Thomas Pfeiffer - 19.09.19, 15:04:41 CEST: 
> On 19.09.19 13:52, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb 
cahfof...@tuta.io:
> >> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >> 
> >> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate
> >> protests and hopefully also in human history: People in more than
> >> 3500 places worldwide are joining the Global Climate Strike to
> >> draw attention to the rising climate crisis.
> >> 
> >> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests
> >> and show solidarity with the people engaging for this very
> >> important topic?> 
> > If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should
> > rather have it on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling
> > one day the year "oh yes, so important topic, we also agree
> > someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the rest of the year
> > continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's quicker &
> > less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> > powerful ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> > 
> > I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone
> > doing this in my name (as active contributor to KDE software
> > projects), when it's not backed by official applied policies. You
> > are actually harming the strike, and shadowing those people who are
> > not just signaling, but serious by what they do.
> 
> As a very active member of the climate movement in several
> organizations, my time spent there being the main reason why I didn't
> run for another board term, I disagree.
> 
> Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which
> is why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy
> (it's currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we
> first thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even
> more.
> 
> However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
> Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
> to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
> effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing
> our audience about the strike.
>
> Since I am deep in the "climate bubble", Friday the 20th of September
> has been red in my calendar for months and I've been hearing about it
> every day since then.
> Outside of that bubble, however, apparently it's by far not well known
> enough.

I believe both approaches do not contradict each other.

KDE community can promote the climate strike through their channels on a 
rather short term and still work a on long term approach or commitment.

I'd love to see us do both. KDE is already a truly awesome community. 
And one can argue not to engage into "political" stuff as a free software 
community, but this is much more than "political" stuff. This is a topic 
that affects all living beings on Earth. For me it would be a remarkable 
step for a free software based community to stand up for sustainability.

20th is marked in my calendar since a long time.  I certainly will go to 
the local demonstration. And it will not be the first demonstration I 
have been to. For me it is not fair to leave all the necessary work to 
facilitate necessary, long overdue changes to our youngest generation. 
Those young people deserve our support and commitment. They deserve the 
action that is needed. And I believe there are quite some of that 
generation with KDE already anyway, for example due to the various 
student programs.

Strong action to reduce the human influence on the climate, ideally back 
to zero, and to remember a more loving relationship with mother earth 
and all the living beings on her will also decide about the future of 
KDE, both as a community and as a collection of wonderful software which 
can be used for all kinds of good causes.

So I am committed to do the best I can, even when it can be overwhelming 
at times. I know I will be there and contribute as best I can to this 
good cause. No matter how the community decision turns out to be.

Thank you all for bringing this up here.

Best,
-- 
Martin




Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday? - Addition to the proposal

2019-09-19 Thread cahfofpai
Dear Thomas, dear KDE community,

I fully support Thomas' proposal.

For the banner, I would take the official footer banner, which can be seen at 
https://github.com/fightforthefuture/digital-climate-strike#how-it-works--demo 

 . By modifying the configuration and / or javascript, we could prevent it from 
expanding tomorrow.

Additionally, I (and some others over in the Promo channel) would align it with 
a post on social media.

This post could be combined with an announcement that KDE starts internal 
discussions about its impact on the environment and how to save the environment.

Therefore, as of today, we could (and in my opinion should) start internal 
discussions on how to save the environment as KDE community. How should this 
happen? Here on the mailing list, on a phabricator task or somewhere else? Has 
something additional to be done that we can officially say the KDE community 
discusses this aspect?

Sincerely yours
cahfofpai


19. Sep. 2019, 15:35 von thomas.pfeif...@kde.org:

> Hey everyone,
>
> Here is a concrete proposal which I've just brought up on the promo
> channel and which seems to gain support there:
>
> - Add a banner on our website _today_ informing about the Global Climate
> Strike which starts tomorrow and telling that we support it (not
> covering the whole website, just big enough that people notice it)
> - Post on social media _today_, telling people that we think the strike
> is important
> - Do _not_ use the JavaScript which does the "blackout" tomorrow.
>
> Reasoning:
> The blackout thing is indeed more of a grand gesture of solidarity,
> which in itself doesn't do much, at least on our website. The strike is
> mainly aimed at politicians, and I don't think many of them even go to
> our website.
>
> However, telling our audience about the strike and showing our support
> _today_ may motivate some people to join, and that does have an effect.
> Politicians don't care about FOSS websites showing a banner, but they do
> care about millions of people protesting out on the streets.
>
> I know they do, because they have told me, in person, when I paid them
> visits together with other climate activists.
> They told me "If you want us politicians to listen, don't sign online
> petitions. Go out on the streets in really big numbers!"
>
> Would anybody have serious concerns about that?
>
> Cheers,
> Thomas
>



Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Paul Brown
On jueves, 19 de septiembre de 2019 12:48:33 (CEST) Harald Sitter wrote:
> With that in mind I would propose that we make a statement, but not to
> the FSF... our statement should be one in support of a healthy,
> diverse and inclusive free software community to that very community
> at large. This applies to the FSF, to GNOME, to us, we all need to be
> aware of our own biases so we can prevent bias-driven decision making
> and foster diversity.
> 
> KDE's statement ought to encourage and light the way.

This is the sanest and most positive course of action, I think. It a avoids 
focusing on the sordid details and moves the perspective towards working in 
pro of something, rather than just against someone (or something, namely the 
FSF).

Paul
-- 
Promotion & Communication

www: http://kde.org
Mastodon: https://mastodon.technology/@kde
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/kde/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kdecommunity
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/kde




Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday? - Proposal

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
Hey everyone,

Here is a concrete proposal which I've just brought up on the promo
channel and which seems to gain support there:

- Add a banner on our website _today_ informing about the Global Climate
Strike which starts tomorrow and telling that we support it (not
covering the whole website, just big enough that people notice it)
- Post on social media _today_, telling people that we think the strike
is important
- Do _not_ use the JavaScript which does the "blackout" tomorrow.

Reasoning:
The blackout thing is indeed more of a grand gesture of solidarity,
which in itself doesn't do much, at least on our website. The strike is
mainly aimed at politicians, and I don't think many of them even go to
our website.

However, telling our audience about the strike and showing our support
_today_ may motivate some people to join, and that does have an effect.
Politicians don't care about FOSS websites showing a banner, but they do
care about millions of people protesting out on the streets.

I know they do, because they have told me, in person, when I paid them
visits together with other climate activists.
They told me "If you want us politicians to listen, don't sign online
petitions. Go out on the streets in really big numbers!"

Would anybody have serious concerns about that?

Cheers,
Thomas


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
Don't you think you're overcomplicating this? Or "crippling all things
but perfection"? The school strike was carried out by kids who, I am
sure, had quite a carbon footprint themselves. At which level of
individual asceticism is it allower to protest systematic problems or
demand that the very few who CAN make an actual chance that will have
an impact do so?

I think you raise some MONUMENTALLY relevant things though which really
should be carried over into the future (no matter how this thread pans
out) - what can we as a community do to improve our own ecological
footprint beyond what is already done? 
Just off the top of my head - work even closer with Postmarket OS, as
well as Fairphone (if possible), seems brilliant. Produce software that
is intended to reuse old hardware, or repurpose them. I would love to
see this discussed in another thread btw it seems like a great sort of
focus for development and design.

But that's beside the point. The strike is about showing that a lot of
people consider the ecological and human disaster we are living in
currently needs to be at least halted and for that to happen taken
seriously by politician and businesses at a larger scale - it is not so
much about individual recycling or small actions in itself. 

We should improve ourselves of course, but demanding personal
perfection to criticize a systematic imperfection is just dooming all
political actions and protests completely. 

Also considering the dire straights we're in - I'd say starting
somewhere - ANYWHERE at this point feels more relevant than trying to
get the perfect run up first and then perhaps missing the race
entirely. 

/Jens

TL;DR I would love for KDE to be part of this - but at the same time I
think we should try to carry a discussion onwards about how to improve
KDE's climate effects in the future. 

tor 2019-09-19 klockan 13:52 +0200 skrev Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb 
> cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> > 
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate
> > protests and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> > worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the
> > rising
> > climate crisis.
> > 
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests
> > and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
> 
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather
> have it 
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year
> "oh yes, 
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" ,
> and the 
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities
> ("it's quicker 
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> powerful 
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> 
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone
> doing this 
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when
> it's not 
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the
> strike, and 
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by
> what they 
> do.
> 
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware
> there are 
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I
> would 
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care
> currently. 
> So it should not pretend it does.
> 
> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on 
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be
> short on 
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the
> most 
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of
> just 
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral
> resources? 
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I
> agree ;)
> 
> Cheers
> Friedrich
> 
> 



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
Hi Friedrich,

On 19.09.19 13:52, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
>> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
>>
>> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and
>> hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide
>> are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
>> climate crisis.
>>
>> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
>> solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
> 
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have it 
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh yes, 
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the 
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's 
> quicker 
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more powerful 
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> 
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing this 
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not 
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike, and 
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what they 
> do.

As a very active member of the climate movement in several
organizations, my time spent there being the main reason why I didn't
run for another board term, I disagree.

Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which is
why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy (it's
currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we first
thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even more.

However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing our
audience about the strike.

Since I am deep in the "climate bubble", Friday the 20th of September
has been red in my calendar for months and I've been hearing about it
every day since then.
Outside of that bubble, however, apparently it's by far not well known
enough.

My hypothesis is that there are a relevant number of people in our
target audience who care enough about the topic that they might join the
strike, but not enough to already know about it.

If informing our audience about the strike gets some people to learn
about and join it, it's been worth it.

> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there 
> are 
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would 
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care currently. 
> So it should not pretend it does.

We should not demand anything from anybody, of course, but we can tell
people that this crucially important thing is happening, and we support it.

> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on 
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short on 
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most 
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just 
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources? 
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree ;)

All of these are important, and I want to make 2019 the year where KDE
significantly boots our environment protection efforts, but I'd see
informing peoplke about the Global Climate Strike as an integral part of
that effort, not as something we could only do after we've finished the
other things.

Cheers,
Thomas


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Laszlo Papp
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau 
wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests
> and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have
> it
> on its agenda every day,
>

I just want to add another specific comment here for an action point. I
believe anything that qualifies as every day focus should go to the KDE
manifesto first before publicly backing it:

https://manifesto.kde.org/

Every big change starts within ...


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Laszlo Papp
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau 
wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests
> and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have
> it
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh
> yes,
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and
> the
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's
> quicker
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> powerful
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
>
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing
> this
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike,
> and
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what
> they
> do.
>
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there
> are
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care
> currently.
> So it should not pretend it does.
>
> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short
> on
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources?
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree
> ;)
>
> Cheers
> Friedrich
>

Yeah, completely agree with you.

Striking is nice, but the real thing is what happens when they go home from
the strike. Do they wake up the next day as mission completed or do they
actually live their lives like that every single day and minutes as you
say? Is it exemplary if not or showing bad example in this category? Is it
just an impulse for them or lifestyle?

Also, reading both threads about strike and FSFE (I do not think our board
is diversified enough), I feel that KDE wants to be more extrovert than
introvert. I think, instead of telling others what to do, KDE ought to
focus what *KDE* should do.


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 10:31:38 CEST schrieb Christian Loosli:
> I think that people should be elected into positions based on their
> suitability for that position, which means that things like sex, gender,
> race, cultural background, sexual orientation etc. pp.

Race? Sounds like people are proposing there are human races?

You might be reusing phrases here by people you think are out there for a more 
humanist world, but please reflect a bit on this very term, and if it makes 
sense to copycat that phrase and if it really represent what you are thinking. 
And if you are not actually copying terms and ideas of racists, when you might 
not be one.

Cheers
Friedrich




KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> 
> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and
> hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide
> are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> climate crisis.
> 
> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?

If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have it 
on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh yes, 
so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the 
rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's quicker 
& less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more powerful 
("I could not stand the old one, sorry").

I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing this 
in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not 
backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike, and 
shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what they 
do.

Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there are 
individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would 
consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care currently. 
So it should not pretend it does.

Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on 
environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short on 
need of device resources?
Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most 
environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just 
looking at money?
And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources? 
If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree ;)

Cheers
Friedrich




Re: Retirement of notes.kde.org

2019-09-19 Thread Aleix Pol
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:09 PM Ben Cooksley  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:55 PM Aleix Pol  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:34 AM Ben Cooksley  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:50 AM Aleix Pol  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 8:58 PM Ben Cooksley  wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Good evening all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Currently we're in the situation where the software we use to run
> > > > > notes.kde.org is both difficult to maintain, as well as support (for
> > > > > things like document confidentiality for various groups within KDE).
> > > > >
> > > > > We'd therefore like to retire the service, replacing it with the
> > > > > Realtime Text Editor within Nextcloud (share.kde.org). Internally this
> > > > > editor uses Markdown.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can find a demo of this at https://share.kde.org/s/gtFcRmwetRKqTZJ
> > > > > (no login required)
> > > > >
> > > > > It would be appreciated if everyone could please test the realtime
> > > > > text editor and let us know if they encounter any issues.
> > > > >
> > > > > In terms of feature differences, we are aware that
> > > > > highlighting/authorship information won't be retained by the new
> > > > > editor, and there can occasionally be problems when editing the same
> > > > > line with someone else simultaneously.
> > > > >
> > > > > If everyone is okay with this we'd like to go ahead with shutting down
> > > > > notes.kde.org as soon as possible.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thanks,
> > > > > Ben Cooksley
> > > > > KDE Sysadmin
> > > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Is the new editor already usable on share.kde.org? If I create a text
> > > > file I get a different thing than your demo.
> > >
> > > It should be yes. Did you create a new document or a new text document?
> > >
> > > This new editor only works with text documents (slightly confusingly)
> > > as the document editor is a version of LibreOffice Online (for more
> > > fully featured documents)
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Aleix
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Ben
> >
> > It was a new text document, AFAIR. This is what it looks like:
> > https://i.imgur.com/6RhmNLK.png
>
> Ah, that is the same editor, just in logged in mode.
>
> If you were to create a publicly accessible link, and use that to
> access the document then you'd get a view that looks exactly like the
> one I created.
> In the logged in version you get the ability to see things like prior
> versions (accessible through the sidebar, which you can open by
> clicking the icon in the top right)
>
> If you're missing any controls then you may need to perform a force
> refresh (Ctrl + F5).
>
> >
> > Aleix
>
> Cheers,
> Ben

Ah, okay, cool, thanks!

BTW, it will be really handy to be able to have publicly editable
texts, this had been a problem for me in the past (that people needed
to be in identity.kde.org).

Aleix


Re: Retirement of notes.kde.org

2019-09-19 Thread Aleix Pol
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:34 AM Ben Cooksley  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 2:50 AM Aleix Pol  wrote:
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 8:58 PM Ben Cooksley  wrote:
> > >
> > > Good evening all,
> > >
> > > Currently we're in the situation where the software we use to run
> > > notes.kde.org is both difficult to maintain, as well as support (for
> > > things like document confidentiality for various groups within KDE).
> > >
> > > We'd therefore like to retire the service, replacing it with the
> > > Realtime Text Editor within Nextcloud (share.kde.org). Internally this
> > > editor uses Markdown.
> > >
> > > You can find a demo of this at https://share.kde.org/s/gtFcRmwetRKqTZJ
> > > (no login required)
> > >
> > > It would be appreciated if everyone could please test the realtime
> > > text editor and let us know if they encounter any issues.
> > >
> > > In terms of feature differences, we are aware that
> > > highlighting/authorship information won't be retained by the new
> > > editor, and there can occasionally be problems when editing the same
> > > line with someone else simultaneously.
> > >
> > > If everyone is okay with this we'd like to go ahead with shutting down
> > > notes.kde.org as soon as possible.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Ben Cooksley
> > > KDE Sysadmin
> >
> > Hi,
> > Is the new editor already usable on share.kde.org? If I create a text
> > file I get a different thing than your demo.
>
> It should be yes. Did you create a new document or a new text document?
>
> This new editor only works with text documents (slightly confusingly)
> as the document editor is a version of LibreOffice Online (for more
> fully featured documents)
>
> >
> > Aleix
>
> Cheers,
> Ben

It was a new text document, AFAIR. This is what it looks like:
https://i.imgur.com/6RhmNLK.png

Aleix


Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?

2019-09-19 Thread Aleix Pol
On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:01 PM  wrote:
>
> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
>
> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and 
> hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide 
> are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising climate 
> crisis.
>
> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show 
> solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> I created a phabricator task (https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717 
> ) and will be happy about everyone 
> discussing this very important topic.
>
>
> I figured out two ways for us as a community to participate:
>
> 1. create and publish a social media post showing KDE's support for the 
> movement
>
> 2. join the website strike (https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/ 
>  
> https://github.com/fightforthefuture/digital-climate-strike 
> ) by showing a 
> full-screen banner on KDE's websites to illustrate KDE's participation, raise 
> awareness for this very important topic and mobilise people to join the 
> protests
>
>
> In my opinion, KDE should not only engage in its "main business" (amazing) 
> free software and all its associated topics, but also topics concerning the 
> wider environment KDE's software runs in.
>
> One first step would be joining the Global Climate Strike to ensure future 
> generations can enjoy KDE's software as we did, and ensure KDE still exists 
> in 100s and 1.000s of years.
>
> The most important part in KDE's community are its members, but which people 
> should be part of KDE when humanity disposes itself due to the extreme 
> climate crisis?
>
> Your's sincerely
> cahfofpai
> =
>
> Ways you could participate in the Global Climate Strike on a personal basis:
> - join a local strike (find one at 
> https://fridaysforfuture.org/events/map?c=+All+countries=2019-09-20=all 
>  
> or at https://globalclimatestrike.net/#map 
> )
> - take part in the website strike with your personal websites 
> (https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/#website-assets 
> )
> - spread the word on the internet, for example on social media
> - organise a climate strike in your hometown 
> (https://globalclimatestrike.net/organise/ 
> ), if there's not already one

We discussed this briefly at our Board call, it's seems like a good
idea. Maybe getting the JS bit would be a bit rushed since we don't
really know what's in it, but we'd be happy to partake of the
campaign.

Adding the KDE Promo list as CC, is there anyone who would be able to help?

Aleix


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Harald Sitter
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 10:29 AM Jens  wrote:
>
> TBH I worry less about past transgressions or the communicative fallout
> than I do a lack of response from us. (this is me not having a blessed
> clue what exactly went down 2009)
>
> I do agree with you on many points and I think you raise a lot of good
> concerns at the same time, we missed the boat then to comment - what
> we're seeing now is not a boat ten years travelled, but a new one
> launched from shore so to speak.
>
> I think with a bit of finesse we can use it as a voice of support for
> FSF, a hope to ensure a leadership that can better serve the FSF as
> well as weave it into a comment on our commitment for the same - AND do
> so in a way that can include the ideological diversity of KDE.
>
> In practice (FOR EXAMPLE):
> "We support the FSF in its work to find a new President and would urge
> them to find one that represent the Free Software movement as a whole
> and can grow the entirety of the community.
> We all (the KDE community included) have to ensure that past biases do
> not limit our choices of leadership and that access to Free Software,
> the technologies and the communities isn't blocked by those same biases
> and cultures."

+1 to what Jens said in the entire thread.

I will add that I don't think we need to publicly talk to or about the
FSF specifically though, but maybe I am just not grasping the scope of
the incident there. Perhaps we should; after all, while the FSF is a
separate organization it is still the figure head of the free software
movement as a whole. We are part of the movement and so our opinion
matters and we should make it heard. At the same time I am not sure
what wagging a finger in the particular direction of the FSF
accomplishes.

With that in mind I would propose that we make a statement, but not to
the FSF... our statement should be one in support of a healthy,
diverse and inclusive free software community to that very community
at large. This applies to the FSF, to GNOME, to us, we all need to be
aware of our own biases so we can prevent bias-driven decision making
and foster diversity.

KDE's statement ought to encourage and light the way.

HS


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Lydia Pintscher
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 4:59 AM Valorie Zimmerman
 wrote:
> As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF. However, 
> his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory Board, 
> according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php
>
> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to diversify 
> their Board, as RedHat has done here: 
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-directors.
>  If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board to do 
> this on our behalf.

Hi Valorie,

Thanks for bringing this up. The board will reach out to them through
our channels and express our wish for a board that represents the
whole Free Software community and our willingness to help the FSF get
there.


Cheers
Lydia

-- 
Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher
KDE e.V. Board of Directors
http://kde.org - http://open-advice.org


Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?

2019-09-19 Thread Harald Sitter
This is an awesome idea! I'm all for it.

Finding someone to fiddle with the website at such short notice may be
problematic though. Social media support should be easy peasy.

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 6:01 PM  wrote:
>
> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
>
> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and 
> hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide 
> are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising climate 
> crisis.
>
> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show 
> solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> I created a phabricator task (https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717 
> ) and will be happy about everyone 
> discussing this very important topic.
>
>
> I figured out two ways for us as a community to participate:
>
> 1. create and publish a social media post showing KDE's support for the 
> movement
>
> 2. join the website strike (https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/ 
>  
> https://github.com/fightforthefuture/digital-climate-strike 
> ) by showing a 
> full-screen banner on KDE's websites to illustrate KDE's participation, raise 
> awareness for this very important topic and mobilise people to join the 
> protests
>
>
> In my opinion, KDE should not only engage in its "main business" (amazing) 
> free software and all its associated topics, but also topics concerning the 
> wider environment KDE's software runs in.
>
> One first step would be joining the Global Climate Strike to ensure future 
> generations can enjoy KDE's software as we did, and ensure KDE still exists 
> in 100s and 1.000s of years.
>
> The most important part in KDE's community are its members, but which people 
> should be part of KDE when humanity disposes itself due to the extreme 
> climate crisis?
>
> Your's sincerely
> cahfofpai
> =
>
> Ways you could participate in the Global Climate Strike on a personal basis:
> - join a local strike (find one at 
> https://fridaysforfuture.org/events/map?c=+All+countries=2019-09-20=all 
>  
> or at https://globalclimatestrike.net/#map 
> )
> - take part in the website strike with your personal websites 
> (https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/#website-assets 
> )
> - spread the word on the internet, for example on social media
> - organise a climate strike in your hometown 
> (https://globalclimatestrike.net/organise/ 
> ), if there's not already one


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Laszlo Papp
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 9:31 AM Christian Loosli  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I mostly agree with Agustin and Jens:
>
> I think that people should be elected into positions based on their
> suitability for that position, which means that things like sex, gender,
> race,
> cultural background, sexual orientation etc. pp. should neither be an
> advantage nor a disadvantage. Otherwise people with backward mindsets
> thinking
> that "$xy can't do $z" will go  "Oh, you only got into position $z due to
> being $xy", which doesn't help. Also worst case, but exaggerated, if
> indeed
> people are picked not based on suitability, you could e.g. pick someone
> for a
> communicative job that is rather introvert or someone for a finance job
> that
> doesn't like numbers, then people with the above mentioned mindset would
> feel
> that their odd views are even more confirmed, that $xy can't do $z.
>
> From a personal point of view, I e.g. do not think that someone from the
> LGBTQ+ spectrum would represent me any better on a board. What is
> important to
> me is that I feel welcome and an not harassed  / discriminated due to
> that.
>
> And that is what we need to achieve: our community needs to be inclusive
> and
> welcoming, so we shall not tolerate discrimination based on sex, gender,
> cultural heritage etc. pp.
> When we have a diverse base, chances are obviously high that people
> elected
> into positions have all kind of different backgrounds.
>
> And that is what I think we need to recommend to other communities, so
> that
> FOSS as a whole is a place where everybody feels welcome and nobody
> suffers
> from discrimination based on who they are.  On the other hand, I do not
> feel
> that we are in the position to make strong pushs or even build up public
> pressure when it comes to elections and choices of other organizations.
> I don't know how FSF elections internally work, but if we map it to KDE,
> I'd
> see it as very awkward if an external organization would interfere with
> our
> board elections and say  "You should pick candidate $x or you must add
> candidates $y and $z".
>
> tl;dr: I think we need to ensure that both we and FOSS has a diverse,
> broad
> base and work on issues preventing that, not interfering with other
> organizations elections and processes.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Christian
>

+1


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Agustin Benito (toscalix)
Hello again,

a clarification from my side...

On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 8:16 AM Agustín Benito  wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am against this. I find disrespectful to tell a fellow organization what 
> they should do. I would feel the same way if anybody does it to us.
>

KDE eV is not an affiliate of the FSF but the FSFE. We are not
"fellows" in strict sense of the FSF then. It does not change the
meaning though, but accuracy is good.

> There are things that should be dealt in private. This is one of them.

When I said private I meant org-to-org instead of through open letters.

So I think we should say nothing (first sentence) and if we do (I hope
we do not), it should be Membership to Membership, that is
representative to representative, given the kind of topic (diversity
in representation/decision making forums) this is about.

>
> The most important thing is that they make the right choice, not the most 
> popular choice. Nobody like their Membership to know what is the right choice.
>
> We should support them, not tell them what to do.
>
> Sent from mobile
>
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 04:59 Valorie Zimmerman,  
> wrote:
>>
>> As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF. 
>> However, his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory 
>> Board, according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php
>>
>> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to diversify 
>> their Board, as RedHat has done here: 
>> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-directors.
>>  If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board to do 
>> this on our behalf.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Valorie
>>
>> --
>> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>>
>>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Sven Brauch

Hi,

yes, what Christian says is a maybe more elaborate phrasing of what I also 
wanted to say.


Greetings!

On 9/19/19 10:31 AM, Christian Loosli wrote:

Hi all,

I mostly agree with Agustin and Jens:

I think that people should be elected into positions based on their
suitability for that position, which means that things like sex, gender, race,
cultural background, sexual orientation etc. pp. should neither be an
advantage nor a disadvantage. Otherwise people with backward mindsets thinking
that "$xy can't do $z" will go  "Oh, you only got into position $z due to
being $xy", which doesn't help. Also worst case, but exaggerated, if indeed
people are picked not based on suitability, you could e.g. pick someone for a
communicative job that is rather introvert or someone for a finance job that
doesn't like numbers, then people with the above mentioned mindset would feel
that their odd views are even more confirmed, that $xy can't do $z.

 From a personal point of view, I e.g. do not think that someone from the
LGBTQ+ spectrum would represent me any better on a board. What is important to
me is that I feel welcome and an not harassed  / discriminated due to that.

And that is what we need to achieve: our community needs to be inclusive and
welcoming, so we shall not tolerate discrimination based on sex, gender,
cultural heritage etc. pp.
When we have a diverse base, chances are obviously high that people elected
into positions have all kind of different backgrounds.

And that is what I think we need to recommend to other communities, so that
FOSS as a whole is a place where everybody feels welcome and nobody suffers
from discrimination based on who they are.  On the other hand, I do not feel
that we are in the position to make strong pushs or even build up public
pressure when it comes to elections and choices of other organizations.
I don't know how FSF elections internally work, but if we map it to KDE, I'd
see it as very awkward if an external organization would interfere with our
board elections and say  "You should pick candidate $x or you must add
candidates $y and $z".

tl;dr: I think we need to ensure that both we and FOSS has a diverse, broad
base and work on issues preventing that, not interfering with other
organizations elections and processes.

Kind regards,

Christian

Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 04:59:09 CEST schrieb Valorie Zimmerman:

As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF.
However, his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory
Board, according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php

Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-di
rectors. If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board
to do this on our behalf.

All the best,

Valorie







Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Luca Beltrame
Il giorno Wed, 18 Sep 2019 19:59:09 -0700
Valorie Zimmerman
 ha scritto:

> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
> diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:

At this point, it is too late, IMO. Additionally, KDE is in
no position to tell the FSF what to do. Still IMO, it would be seen as
beating the dead horse.


pgpO7KxWI8e9A.pgp
Description: Firma digitale OpenPGP


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Christian Loosli
Hi all, 

I mostly agree with Agustin and Jens: 

I think that people should be elected into positions based on their 
suitability for that position, which means that things like sex, gender, race, 
cultural background, sexual orientation etc. pp. should neither be an 
advantage nor a disadvantage. Otherwise people with backward mindsets thinking 
that "$xy can't do $z" will go  "Oh, you only got into position $z due to 
being $xy", which doesn't help. Also worst case, but exaggerated, if indeed 
people are picked not based on suitability, you could e.g. pick someone for a 
communicative job that is rather introvert or someone for a finance job that 
doesn't like numbers, then people with the above mentioned mindset would feel 
that their odd views are even more confirmed, that $xy can't do $z. 

>From a personal point of view, I e.g. do not think that someone from the 
LGBTQ+ spectrum would represent me any better on a board. What is important to 
me is that I feel welcome and an not harassed  / discriminated due to that. 

And that is what we need to achieve: our community needs to be inclusive and 
welcoming, so we shall not tolerate discrimination based on sex, gender, 
cultural heritage etc. pp. 
When we have a diverse base, chances are obviously high that people elected 
into positions have all kind of different backgrounds. 

And that is what I think we need to recommend to other communities, so that 
FOSS as a whole is a place where everybody feels welcome and nobody suffers 
from discrimination based on who they are.  On the other hand, I do not feel 
that we are in the position to make strong pushs or even build up public 
pressure when it comes to elections and choices of other organizations. 
I don't know how FSF elections internally work, but if we map it to KDE, I'd 
see it as very awkward if an external organization would interfere with our 
board elections and say  "You should pick candidate $x or you must add 
candidates $y and $z". 

tl;dr: I think we need to ensure that both we and FOSS has a diverse, broad 
base and work on issues preventing that, not interfering with other 
organizations elections and processes. 

Kind regards, 

Christian

Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 04:59:09 CEST schrieb Valorie Zimmerman:
> As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF.
> However, his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory
> Board, according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php
> 
> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
> diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-di
> rectors. If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board
> to do this on our behalf.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Valorie






Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
TBH I worry less about past transgressions or the communicative fallout
than I do a lack of response from us. (this is me not having a blessed
clue what exactly went down 2009)

I do agree with you on many points and I think you raise a lot of good
concerns at the same time, we missed the boat then to comment - what
we're seeing now is not a boat ten years travelled, but a new one
launched from shore so to speak.

I think with a bit of finesse we can use it as a voice of support for
FSF, a hope to ensure a leadership that can better serve the FSF as
well as weave it into a comment on our commitment for the same - AND do
so in a way that can include the ideological diversity of KDE.

In practice (FOR EXAMPLE):
"We support the FSF in its work to find a new President and would urge
them to find one that represent the Free Software movement as a whole
and can grow the entirety of the community. 
We all (the KDE community included) have to ensure that past biases do
not limit our choices of leadership and that access to Free Software,
the technologies and the communities isn't blocked by those same biases
and cultures."

a bit milquetoast for some, a bit radical for others - but something
middle of the roadish that we can all AT LEAST go "yeah ok..." to.

/Jens

tor 2019-09-19 klockan 10:14 +0200 skrev David Cahalane:
> KDE would be the first organization not directly linked to FSF to
> issue a public statement on this. It would also come over a week
> after RMS' statements gained media attention, and several days after
> his resignation.
> 
> If we wanted to voice our desire for a more open FOSS community, we
> should have done it before RMS resigned. OpenSUSE did exactly that,
> issuing a statement on Sept.14 simply arguing that free software must
> be free of abuse. No mention of Stallman, the FSF, or MIT.
> 
> Making a statement similar to Red Hat's would be seen by the FSF as
> an unwelcome intrusion into an internal discussion. A statement
> simply supporting the FSF could be misconstrued as mourning the loss
> of RMS.
> 
> The worst thing we could do is draw attention to what was said at
> Akademy 2009. If we didn't take enough action then, that is our
> failure. Ten years later, associating ourselves with those remarks
> can only cause undue harm to KDE.
> 
> I'm glad to see RMS go, and I sincerely hope FSF can change into a
> more inclusive and more effective organization. I know many in KDE
> feel the same. But it's not our place to put additional pressure on
> the FSF at this time. They already took a big step forward by getting
> rid of RMS, even though it may have been personally difficult for
> many of them.
> 
> From a communications standpoint, the time for our comment has long
> since passed.
> 
> 
> Sep 19, 2019, 04:08 by j...@ohyran.se:
> 
> > I disagree with a lot of the ideological/sociological statements in
> > your comment, but will focus on the core point:
> > 
> > What we're suggesting is chosing someone that is objectively BETTER
> > for
> > the FSF. The post isn't only technical in nature, but instead one
> > of
> > community leadership, communication and philosophical guidance. 
> > 
> > With that in mind looking for the leader to better represent the
> > FSF,
> > grow the Free Software movement, and improve its standing - makes
> > the
> > choice for diversification a clear and simple one
> > (and that is ignoring the other arguments for those of us who do
> > not
> > share your specific ideological/sociological beliefs)
> > 
> > /Jens
> > 
> > 
> > tor 2019-09-19 klockan 09:54 +0200 skrev Sven Brauch:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > On Thursday, 19 September 2019 04:59:09 CEST Valorie Zimmerman
> > > wrote:
> > > > Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them
> > > > to
> > > > diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
> > > 
> > > I am against diversifying for diversifying's sake. It's something
> > > that is 
> > > already way too prevalent in today's society.
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Let's please pick the best 
> > > person for the job, regardless of race, gender, or whatever, and
> > > let's 
> > > especially *not* write letters to others recommending them to do
> > > otherwise.
> > > 
> > > Picking people with the argument of diversity achieves the exact
> > > opposite of 
> > > what you want: it leads to people which are *worse* at their job
> > > than
> > > the 
> > > competitors being selected for it. Thus doing this systematically
> > > gives an 
> > > actual, real reason for prejudice against "people with $property
> > > in 
> > > $position".
> > > 
> > > Greetings,
> > > Sven
> > > 



Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread David Cahalane
KDE would be the first organization not directly linked to FSF to issue a 
public statement on this. It would also come over a week after RMS' statements 
gained media attention, and several days after his resignation.

If we wanted to voice our desire for a more open FOSS community, we should have 
done it before RMS resigned. OpenSUSE did exactly that, issuing a statement on 
Sept.14 simply arguing that free software must be free of abuse. No mention of 
Stallman, the FSF, or MIT.

Making a statement similar to Red Hat's would be seen by the FSF as an 
unwelcome intrusion into an internal discussion. A statement simply supporting 
the FSF could be misconstrued as mourning the loss of RMS.

The worst thing we could do is draw attention to what was said at Akademy 2009. 
If we didn't take enough action then, that is our failure. Ten years later, 
associating ourselves with those remarks can only cause undue harm to KDE.

I'm glad to see RMS go, and I sincerely hope FSF can change into a more 
inclusive and more effective organization. I know many in KDE feel the same. 
But it's not our place to put additional pressure on the FSF at this time. They 
already took a big step forward by getting rid of RMS, even though it may have 
been personally difficult for many of them.

>From a communications standpoint, the time for our comment has long since 
>passed.


Sep 19, 2019, 04:08 by j...@ohyran.se:

> I disagree with a lot of the ideological/sociological statements in
> your comment, but will focus on the core point:
>
> What we're suggesting is chosing someone that is objectively BETTER for
> the FSF. The post isn't only technical in nature, but instead one of
> community leadership, communication and philosophical guidance. 
>
> With that in mind looking for the leader to better represent the FSF,
> grow the Free Software movement, and improve its standing - makes the
> choice for diversification a clear and simple one
> (and that is ignoring the other arguments for those of us who do not
> share your specific ideological/sociological beliefs)
>
> /Jens
>
>
> tor 2019-09-19 klockan 09:54 +0200 skrev Sven Brauch:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Thursday, 19 September 2019 04:59:09 CEST Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
>> > Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
>> > diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
>>
>> I am against diversifying for diversifying's sake. It's something
>> that is 
>> already way too prevalent in today's society.
>>
>
>
>
>> Let's please pick the best 
>> person for the job, regardless of race, gender, or whatever, and
>> let's 
>> especially *not* write letters to others recommending them to do
>> otherwise.
>>
>> Picking people with the argument of diversity achieves the exact
>> opposite of 
>> what you want: it leads to people which are *worse* at their job than
>> the 
>> competitors being selected for it. Thus doing this systematically
>> gives an 
>> actual, real reason for prejudice against "people with $property in 
>> $position".
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Sven
>>



Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Kai Bojens
On 19/09/2019 –– 09:54:00AM +0200, Sven Brauch wrote:
 
> I am against diversifying for diversifying's sake. It's something that is 
> already way too prevalent in today's society. Let's please pick the best 
> person for the job, regardless of race, gender, or whatever, and let's 
> especially *not* write letters to others recommending them to do otherwise.

This obviously didn't work in the past and lead to the white male dominated
boards and working environments we have today. There was always a bias to 
choose among specific groups. A call for diversity means nothing more than
to overcome this bias. 


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
I would like to voice my support for Valorie's and Paul's statements
here. Ie: that we do comment and suggest that they diversify their
board, do it publicly, but be very VERY careful to ensure that our
support of them comes across.

We need to do this publicly too - not to excuse our past possible
transgressions on the subject - but to show a unified front with other
organisations in FLOSS/os trying to make such transgressions a thing of
the past. 

Of course the wording needs to be supportive of the FSF first and
foremost. As for WHOM they'll chose in the end, all we can do is voice
our clear hopes and intentions that FLOSS/os is more open for all, and
not just a few. 

/Jens


tor 2019-09-19 klockan 09:09 +0200 skrev Helio Chissini de Castro:
> I understand RH. The gamemis political now, is a chance to make FSF a
> real
> org to match Linux Foundation power domination recently. They just
> can't
> speak directly about this, but use the nice inclusion topic, helping
> then
> to say the message without been heavy political sided.
> 
> And i want raise a concern here as well.
> 
> The current FSF VP, Alexandre Oliva, i know personally from long
> time. He
> is as extremist as RMS, but only in software territory, and seen like
> a
> current twitter post, it shows that is going down to the hill like
> RMS.
> https://twitter.com/coralineada/status/1174410267972780033?s=21
> 
> So, we need carefully choose the words if we want to say a message.
> 
> If we do want to support the new times, but avoid fall in the risk of
> having aoliva as a president and FSF will not change at all, can even
> been
> more dangerous.
> 
> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 08:34, Paul Adams  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 08:17 Agustín Benito, 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > we should support them, not tell them what to do.
> > > 
> > 
> > One of RMSs best-known transgressions took place on _our_ stage at
> > Gran
> > Canaria. We did not exactly take much action at the time.
> > 
> > If this community really cares about Free Software and building an
> > inclusive community we absolutely _must_ speak up in public.
> > 
> > Augustin is right though. That message must be one of support for
> > the FSF
> > and helping them build a better future for FS, not pressurising
> > them over
> > things in the past.
> > 



Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Helio Chissini de Castro
I understand RH. The gamemis political now, is a chance to make FSF a real
org to match Linux Foundation power domination recently. They just can't
speak directly about this, but use the nice inclusion topic, helping then
to say the message without been heavy political sided.

And i want raise a concern here as well.

The current FSF VP, Alexandre Oliva, i know personally from long time. He
is as extremist as RMS, but only in software territory, and seen like a
current twitter post, it shows that is going down to the hill like RMS.
https://twitter.com/coralineada/status/1174410267972780033?s=21

So, we need carefully choose the words if we want to say a message.

If we do want to support the new times, but avoid fall in the risk of
having aoliva as a president and FSF will not change at all, can even been
more dangerous.

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 08:34, Paul Adams  wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 08:17 Agustín Benito,  wrote:
>
>> we should support them, not tell them what to do.
>>
>
> One of RMSs best-known transgressions took place on _our_ stage at Gran
> Canaria. We did not exactly take much action at the time.
>
> If this community really cares about Free Software and building an
> inclusive community we absolutely _must_ speak up in public.
>
> Augustin is right though. That message must be one of support for the FSF
> and helping them build a better future for FS, not pressurising them over
> things in the past.
>
>>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Paul Adams
On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 08:17 Agustín Benito,  wrote:

> we should support them, not tell them what to do.
>

One of RMSs best-known transgressions took place on _our_ stage at Gran
Canaria. We did not exactly take much action at the time.

If this community really cares about Free Software and building an
inclusive community we absolutely _must_ speak up in public.

Augustin is right though. That message must be one of support for the FSF
and helping them build a better future for FS, not pressurising them over
things in the past.

>


Re: FSF leadership

2019-09-19 Thread Agustín Benito
Hello,

I am against this. I find disrespectful to tell a fellow organization what
they should do. I would feel the same way if anybody does it to us.

There are things that should be dealt in private. This is one of them.

The most important thing is that they make the right choice, not the most
popular choice. Nobody like their Membership to know what is the right
choice.

We should support them, not tell them what to do.

Sent from mobile

On Thu, 19 Sep 2019, 04:59 Valorie Zimmerman, 
wrote:

> As many of you know, Richard Stallman has stepped down from the FSF.
> However, his supporters on the FSF Board remain. The FSF is on our Advisory
> Board, according to https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php
>
> Accordingly, I would like us (the KDE Community) to advise them to
> diversify their Board, as RedHat has done here:
> https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/open-letter-free-software-foundation-board-directors.
> If we cannot do this as a community, I would like to ask the Board to do
> this on our behalf.
>
> All the best,
>
> Valorie
>
> --
> http://about.me/valoriez - pronouns: she/her
>
>
>