Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Claudio Desideri]

>
> I'm glad to hear that you're still interested in ocs-server, but at the
> same
> time I'm puzzled, because that is not what you told me when we talked
> extensively about the project. You told me that you are not planning to
> work
> on ocs-server in your free time, but would be available to get paid to do
> it.
> If you would get paid to, you'd participate in a meeting.
> I went out on a limb to even get you pocket money (which is highly unusual
> for
> such meetings) which you requested, on top of covering your other expenses,
> just for you to be able to participate.


You asked me, in case the final decision at the meeting would have been to
merge or work on the BS' implementation, if I would have been available to
work with the future team to-be-built. I said no, because I had no time to
put in a larger project with more people. Even if my code sucks, I liked
writing it and learning and improving it. I just had no time to follow
tasks in a bigger team with deadlines. I could have found that time if bs
sponsored my work with my requested amount (I'd like to point out that I
asked 100€/month), in the other case I'd just had to work on free time. I'm
now doing a small job completely unrelated to programming or opensource
software. That's because I just need that extra. Then, when you told me
that I could work for a new project with a new team for free I just said
no. It was very funny to develop the project, I just wasn't as passionate
in a new project. It's open source, we're still doing it for passion in the
end, right? And regarding the travel... I know exactly what you told me,
and I'm not going to deny that. I'd just like to point out that you talked
about a "hotel" and I discovered very late it wasn't a hotel, it was an
apartment. I'm sorry, it can be the same for you but it's a huge difference
for me as I need my personal and private spaces from time to time. At
akademy night party, I wasn't there, I was working on the server, because
sometimes I have to socially "recharge batteries". That's the night we had
it working with newstuff.
Regarding the phrase "If you would get paid to, you'd participate in a
meeting." let's explain the logical steps to readers. I'd hate to be
misunderstood again. You told me bs had this proprietary implementation and
then you invited me in a meeting to decide about ocs future and telling me
that an evaluation would have been done there, and that the best would have
been chosen. I told you then, that it was pretty obvious my implementation
had security problems and other flaws so that basically there was no
choice. Then the focal point of the meeting was missing. You also admitted
that mine was probably worse than bs' one. Then I asked you if there were
real work opportunities (I recently moved in with my girlfriend and we had
expenses, I asked for 100/month which I think it's not exactly gold
diggering.) if I'd have come to the meeting, because if there weren't I was
just not interested in working for free for a brand new project. That was
the whole point of the "meeting issue". And I tried to explain it to you as
clearly as possible. I'm sorry, I should have communicated better.

I made really sure (told you multiple times, I just reviewed the IRC logs,
> I'm
> happy to send them to you if you find that your memory is lacking) that
> we're
> looking at it open-mindedly, and if you care about the subject, I would try
> hard to get roadblocks removed for you to participate. You chose not to.
>

What you say perfectly makes sense, and it's completely true. It's just I
hadn't the energy and passion to join a brand new project led by a company
with employees working full time. You have to admit that even if that's
legally open source development it's different, because paid people proceed
with a much quicker speed and I knew I couldn't catch up if not using
almost all my free time. Please consider I'm still a student so I can't
focus completely on such a project. I tried to explain to you also this
fear of mine, but clearly I must have been communicating wrong again.

If you feel being met with unfairness, I'm sorry to hear that, but after
> having another critical look at how things went down exactly, I think
> you're
> misrepresenting important facts (I could point out many of them in your
> email,
> but I don't think it really contributes to the discussion, not any more
> than
> asking you to re-read the parent email asking yourself what are facts, and
> which parts are your own assumptions.)
> Next time you have doubts, questions, or somesuch, and you're struggling to
> find answers, please reach out to me before coming to conclusions that may
> be
> based on misinformation and incorrect assumptions. Until you do that,
> please
> assume positive intentions of those involved.
>

You're right, once again. I did assumptions, mainly because I received no
follow up to the meeting at all. I didn't know that if I didn't come I
wasn't eligible to receive a follow up. Part 

Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Claudio Desideri]

Ok, I admit it. You're right in everything you said. Now I got your point
of view and it was all my fault due to my inability to understand things
and talk with you, of my thick-headness, my lack of pragmatism and
motivation. Therefore I honestly can't go on with partecipating as a
developer in this community. I won't go on with the development of
ocs-server, for all the reasons above, and because I don't feel comfortable
anymore in this community as a contributor with responsabilities towards
the community itself. I'm quitting and no more interested in any ocs
activity as a contributor. I hope you respect my choice and accept my
sincere apologies for the troubles I caused by speaking to everyone.

That said, as a user I have a last genuine question:
What's the future of OCS now? Did something came out at the meeting?

2016-01-15 14:54 GMT+01:00 Sebastian Kügler :

> I'm cutting out a lot of text here, which again contains
> misrepresentations,
> but I don't think discussing these in detail contributes to a conclusion
> here,
> so I'll concentrate on what matters instead.
>
> On Friday, January 15, 2016 03:54:15 AM Claudio Desideri wrote:
> > been used replacing openDesktop, however, i got no response at all. After
> > repeatedly asking, I was told it would have been part of incubation
> phase.
> > Now, I don't know project phases as much as you do, but I believe
> > incubation happens way before is inside KDE. Then, logically, that means
> > ocs-server wasn't inside KDE. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
>
> The ocs-server project you were working on doesn't need incubation since it
> started inside KDE, as a KDE project. The incubation process is there for
> external project that want to move into KDE with their infrastructure and
> become part of the wider KDE community.
>
> https://community.kde.org/Incubator has more detailed information.
>
> The point that you are misunderstanding, and which I explained to you
> multiple
> times (I recall you were really thick-headed about it, or I simply failed
> explaining it well enough) is that it's not me and not Blue Systems to
> decide
> which codebase gets used and if the opendesktop services are going to be
> replaced at all. This decision is made by the community, and such a
> decision
> simply cannot be made before a solution is ready. If anybody told you that
> your project would never be used (I'm 100% sure I didn't), then that's at
> best
> guess work. I simply asked you to take part in defining a road forward, you
> contracted that time and time again into what seemed suitable to your
> mental
> model, or what you wanted to understand. In contrast, this lack of
> understanding of failure of communication was not an issue with every other
> person I talked to about this topic.
>
> My impression was that you were only interested in ocs-server if there was
> a
> financial compensation, and that you were not open to consider alternative
> solutions, should the result of an evaluation bring that forward as the
> most
> promising future roadmap. In my opinion, that attitude lacks intrinsic
> motivation and pragmatism to be really useful for KDE. It's your call,
> however, and I respect that decision.
> --
> sebas
>
> http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
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Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Laszlo Papp]

Sorry about chiming in, but I am personally interested in the following
subjects after reading these emails and announcements. Shall I open a new
thread or is it okay in here?

1) Can and will the OCS server implementation be opensourced?

2) What is the future of the Open Collaboration Services standard now? Is
Frank still the maintainer or was that responsibility also shifted to Blue
Systems?
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Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Francesco Wofford]

Since I'm directly involved in the project (mostly on the client side) I
chime in. I admit that I stopped developing my part of the project as the
GSoC ended but I was forced to do so, let me explain why: as it was already
said, soon after the GSoC ended a sort of meeting about “the future of ocs”
was planned. I was not invited to it nor officially informed about it, I
knew about it only because Claudio kindly informed me about what was going
on. I do understand why I wasn't invited, in fact I'm not a project manager
as Claudio or Dan but I still don't get why that meeting wasn't announced
at least in the irc #ocs channel. We both (Claudio and I) felt that either
great changes to the project or a new project was in the air so that was
the reason why I stopped working to it: I was waiting to see what the
future of the project itself could be.. I like to code but I don't see the
point in blindly developing without knowing if what I do is useful or not
and I'm almost sure that Claudio thinks in the same way. After the meeting
took place I waited for days a follow up that never come.. I totally missed
what the scope of our project should be and when I asked to my mentor for
clarifications no answers were given.
Sebas to me it seems, and I may be wrong, that you're trying to address
Claudio as “the greedy guy with no open free collaboration mind”; if this
is the case I have to correct you, he spent 4 years of his life
contributing to KDE and also ruined his carrier at the University because
he was believing in what he was doing (I can assure that having programming
experience at our University does not help at all). From what I get,
knowing him in person, he felt that he was going to loose his current
position to the project in sake of another one and was not so happy about
it (even if we both are hoping for a great future of OCS) so considering
that he was going trough a not so good economic situation and knowing that
at BS there are people payed to develop on KDE he asked if a symbolic
amount to contribute to a project that was different from the one he was
exactly hoping to do. Well... we are humans, I think that position, maybe
if it is not in the completely “free collaboration” spirit is at least
understandable. I think that we can't define him only for having asked that.

As the others I'd like also to have some clarification about the future of
OCS and I'm aware that my code is not perfect, my idea was to improve
myself while helping the community

Woffy

2016-01-15 16:25 GMT+01:00 Claudio Desideri :

> Ok, I admit it. You're right in everything you said. Now I got your point
> of view and it was all my fault due to my inability to understand things
> and talk with you, of my thick-headness, my lack of pragmatism and
> motivation. Therefore I honestly can't go on with partecipating as a
> developer in this community. I won't go on with the development of
> ocs-server, for all the reasons above, and because I don't feel comfortable
> anymore in this community as a contributor with responsabilities towards
> the community itself. I'm quitting and no more interested in any ocs
> activity as a contributor. I hope you respect my choice and accept my
> sincere apologies for the troubles I caused by speaking to everyone.
>
> That said, as a user I have a last genuine question:
> What's the future of OCS now? Did something came out at the meeting?
>
> 2016-01-15 14:54 GMT+01:00 Sebastian Kügler :
>
>> I'm cutting out a lot of text here, which again contains
>> misrepresentations,
>> but I don't think discussing these in detail contributes to a conclusion
>> here,
>> so I'll concentrate on what matters instead.
>>
>> On Friday, January 15, 2016 03:54:15 AM Claudio Desideri wrote:
>> > been used replacing openDesktop, however, i got no response at all.
>> After
>> > repeatedly asking, I was told it would have been part of incubation
>> phase.
>> > Now, I don't know project phases as much as you do, but I believe
>> > incubation happens way before is inside KDE. Then, logically, that means
>> > ocs-server wasn't inside KDE. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
>>
>> The ocs-server project you were working on doesn't need incubation since
>> it
>> started inside KDE, as a KDE project. The incubation process is there for
>> external project that want to move into KDE with their infrastructure and
>> become part of the wider KDE community.
>>
>> https://community.kde.org/Incubator has more detailed information.
>>
>> The point that you are misunderstanding, and which I explained to you
>> multiple
>> times (I recall you were really thick-headed about it, or I simply failed
>> explaining it well enough) is that it's not me and not Blue Systems to
>> decide
>> which codebase gets used and if the opendesktop services are going to be
>> replaced at all. This decision is made by the community, and such a
>> decision
>> simply cannot be made before a solution is ready. If anybody told you 

Re: [kde-community] About ocs-server future

[Sebastian Kügler]

Hi Claudio,

Since you addressed me directly, and I was involved with the process, I'd like 
to chime in here.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 06:55:37 PM Claudio Desideri wrote:
> We'd loved to continue development of ocs-server (and clients) but the
> current status of things seems not too encouraging.

I'm glad to hear that you're still interested in ocs-server, but at the same 
time I'm puzzled, because that is not what you told me when we talked 
extensively about the project. You told me that you are not planning to work 
on ocs-server in your free time, but would be available to get paid to do it. 
If you would get paid to, you'd participate in a meeting. 
I went out on a limb to even get you pocket money (which is highly unusual for 
such meetings) which you requested, on top of covering your other expenses, 
just for you to be able to participate. You canceled your attendance for 
reasons unrelated to the project, at least that's what you told me, only 2 
days before the meeting.

I made really sure (told you multiple times, I just reviewed the IRC logs, I'm 
happy to send them to you if you find that your memory is lacking) that we're 
looking at it open-mindedly, and if you care about the subject, I would try 
hard to get roadblocks removed for you to participate. You chose not to.

If you feel being met with unfairness, I'm sorry to hear that, but after 
having another critical look at how things went down exactly, I think you're 
misrepresenting important facts (I could point out many of them in your email, 
but I don't think it really contributes to the discussion, not any more than 
asking you to re-read the parent email asking yourself what are facts, and 
which parts are your own assumptions.) 
Next time you have doubts, questions, or somesuch, and you're struggling to 
find answers, please reach out to me before coming to conclusions that may be 
based on misinformation and incorrect assumptions. Until you do that, please 
assume positive intentions of those involved.

I did a review of the code of the ocs-server project, focusing on code quality 
and maturity, feature completeness and maintainability to get an idea if it 
could be a replacement for existing OCS services in the near future. You told 
me yourself that it has architectural and practical security flaws. Problems 
I've found during review is that the code is rather incomplete so it can't be 
a short term replacement for existing OCS services offered by opendesktop.org, 
there hasn't been any substantial activity after your GSoC project, and a 
general low level of quality leading to maintenance problems down the road. 
Another issue I've found was the relative immaturity of the project, and that 
progress was mostly limited to periods during GSoC (there hasn't been a single 
commit to ocs-server after the pencils down deadline this year in August, for 
example). I didn't get the impression that it's a healthy project, and lengthy 
conversation with you didn't convince me otherwise.

> they told us our project could be merged or shut down because the 
> community doens't allow concurrent implementations inside KDE)

I'm not sure who told you that. There's a long list of past events which prove 
otherwise, Konqueror vs. Rekonq to name a popular one. KDE doesn't "shut down" 
projects, and there are mechnisms in place which make this impossible: our 
open and inclusive processes and the very nature of Free software licenses.

Cheers,
-- 
sebas

http://www.kde.org | http://vizZzion.org
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