Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Lydia Pintscher]

Hey everyone

Given the discussion here and the fact that we (again) do not have enough
ideas on our ideas page and mentors signed up I suggest the following:
* We realize that we're not in a situation where we're fighting for slots
at this point.
* We let the GSoC admin team decide on a case-by-case basis if a project is
a good fit for working under our umbrella given all the information they
have on motivation/mentors/tasks/willingness to work with us
long-term/benefits for KDE/...


Cheers
Lydia
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Boudewijn Rempt]

On Wed, 10 Feb 2016, Vishesh Handa wrote:


On Feb 8, 2016 11:51, "Jonathan Riddell"  wrote:
>
> I also heard a suggestion from Vishesh that projects like Amarok
> shouldn't be allowed in GSoC because they are not very active.  It
> seems nonsense to block projects from having activity on grounds that
> they are not very active.

I stand by this.

If a project has no developers who actively contribute to it, putting students 
on it with the hope that they
will take care of it, is too optimistic.



I don't want to argue for or against concrete examples, but I do agree that 
it's not fair to the students to tease them witha project that might sound 
cool, but hasn't got mentors available. And if there aren't developers, how can 
there be mentors?

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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Vishesh Handa]

On Feb 8, 2016 11:51, "Jonathan Riddell"  wrote:
>
> I also heard a suggestion from Vishesh that projects like Amarok
> shouldn't be allowed in GSoC because they are not very active.  It
> seems nonsense to block projects from having activity on grounds that
> they are not very active.

I stand by this.

If a project has no developers who actively contribute to it, putting
students on it with the hope that they will take care of it, is too
optimistic.

>
> Jonathan
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Graesslin]

On Monday, February 8, 2016 2:37:26 AM CET Valorie Zimmerman wrote:
> As part of the Student Programs admin team, to me it is pretty clear:
> we should act as the umbrella for friendly teams who pull their own
> weight, whether or not they intend to become KDE projects officially
> in the near future. By saying NO we effectively tell them we don't
> want to work with them.
> 
> We work with students whether or not they plan to become KDE community
> members for life. We've had mentors who were not part of the KDE
> community but rather experts in the needed field. I hope we decide to
> do the same for orgs who want to do GSoC with us.

+1

question: how do we decide what is a "friendly team" ;-) I mean what are the 
criteria whether we let a project join or not. Everybody welcome would be a 
sufficient answer to that.

Cheers
Martin


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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Jonathan Riddell]

I think it's very much in KDE's interest to allow projects which are
not part of KDE but which KDE depends upon to be part of it.  This
should be done on the judgement of the KDE GSoC admins based on value
to KDE and how well the other projects works with us.  In many cases
it's the same people who are KDE anyway.  For example in the past I've
had projects for KDE GSoC working on Kubuntu's installer which is
valuable to KDE as it lets our software get installed.  I'm also
interested in mentioning a project porting LibreOffice to a Qt 5 skin,
that seems valuable to KDE as it lets this important application work
well with our software.

KDE gains a better software ecosystem and more money for the e.V.

I also heard a suggestion from Vishesh that projects like Amarok
shouldn't be allowed in GSoC because they are not very active.  It
seems nonsense to block projects from having activity on grounds that
they are not very active.

Jonathan
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Valorie Zimmerman]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:38 AM, Martin Klapetek
 wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:
>>
>> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 14:58:54 Martin Klapetek wrote:
>> > So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
>> > have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
>> > participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?

Thanks for raising the question, Martin. Although I think "those who
do not follow the Manifesto" is sort of inflammatory. Non-KDE projects
*cannot* follow the Manifesto.

The question as I see it is: shall we act as an umbrella org for GSoC?
With the hope of pulling those orgs closer to KDE.

>> > Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
>> > "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
>> > of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
>> > monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
>> > to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
>> > possible outcome.

I don't see how hanging out with us in GSoC, providing mentors and
admins, is enjoying the benefits without "paying" for them. Everybody
pulls their own weight.

>> > On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
>> > organization some extra money, which is always handy.

Not only that, but it builds collaboration, which to me is much more
important than a few more dollars.

>> I'm sorry, but I completely lack the necessary information to give my opinion
>> in this matter. From the thread I gather that there have been issues in the
>> past with at least one non-KDE project. But without a list of the pros and
>> cons and a short summary of the past experience with allowing non-KDE
>> projects how am I supposed to decide?
>
> If you are subscribed to kde-soc-mentor and have been in the
> past, look up "About GSoC mentoring" thread from 2013.
>
> In short: Tupi wanted to do GSoC with us, many people in that
> thread said "sorry, GSoC is only for KDE projects". That same
> year (and same thread) also ownCloud wanted to have a GSoC
> slot for better KDE integration. Again people agreed to "sorry,
> this is for KDE projects only" (and ownCloud didn't consider
> themselves a KDE project). GCompris was a similar situation
> but they joined in time and all was fine iirc.

IMO we should have been the umbrella for all of them, but that's water
under the bridge.

> Year later SubSurface wanted a slot, we again said "you either
> become a KDE project or we're sorry" so they didn't get a slot.
>
> Last year after GSoC has started, Vishesh found out that Calamares
> is in our accepted GSoC projects and yet is not a KDE project
> (and was put up by the GSoC admin). There was a long discussion
> where it was said it is at least unfair to all those previously rejected
> projects and that it was thought to be a rule to not accept non-KDE
> projects based on discussions and decisions from previous years,
> so how come this one got accepted etc etc etc.
>
> This was all discussed on non-public mailing lists but I believe this
> is actually a community matter as it affects the whole community
> and as such the community should have a say in it. If only for the
> reason that we all have our little side projects that are not in KDE
> and would maybe want to join GSoC and nobody knows if it is
> allowed or not.
>
> Cheers
> --
> Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer

As part of the Student Programs admin team, to me it is pretty clear:
we should act as the umbrella for friendly teams who pull their own
weight, whether or not they intend to become KDE projects officially
in the near future. By saying NO we effectively tell them we don't
want to work with them.

We work with students whether or not they plan to become KDE community
members for life. We've had mentors who were not part of the KDE
community but rather experts in the needed field. I hope we decide to
do the same for orgs who want to do GSoC with us.

Valorie
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Klapetek]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 11:14 AM, Ingo Klöcker  wrote:

> On Wednesday 03 February 2016 14:58:54 Martin Klapetek wrote:
> > So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
> > have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
> > participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?
> >
> > Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
> > "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
> > of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
> > monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
> > to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
> > possible outcome.
> >
> > On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
> > organization some extra money, which is always handy.
>
> I'm sorry, but I completely lack the necessary information to give my
> opinion
> in this matter. From the thread I gather that there have been issues in the
> past with at least one non-KDE project. But without a list of the pros and
> cons and a short summary of the past experience with allowing non-KDE
> projects
> how am I supposed to decide?
>

If you are subscribed to kde-soc-mentor and have been in the
past, look up "About GSoC mentoring" thread from 2013.

In short: Tupi wanted to do GSoC with us, many people in that
thread said "sorry, GSoC is only for KDE projects". That same
year (and same thread) also ownCloud wanted to have a GSoC
slot for better KDE integration. Again people agreed to "sorry,
this is for KDE projects only" (and ownCloud didn't consider
themselves a KDE project). GCompris was a similar situation
but they joined in time and all was fine iirc.

Year later SubSurface wanted a slot, we again said "you either
become a KDE project or we're sorry" so they didn't get a slot.

Last year after GSoC has started, Vishesh found out that Calamares
is in our accepted GSoC projects and yet is not a KDE project
(and was put up by the GSoC admin). There was a long discussion
where it was said it is at least unfair to all those previously rejected
projects and that it was thought to be a rule to not accept non-KDE
projects based on discussions and decisions from previous years,
so how come this one got accepted etc etc etc.

This was all discussed on non-public mailing lists but I believe this
is actually a community matter as it affects the whole community
and as such the community should have a say in it. If only for the
reason that we all have our little side projects that are not in KDE
and would maybe want to join GSoC and nobody knows if it is
allowed or not.

Cheers
-- 
Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Teo Mrnjavac]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 11:53:48 AM CET Ivan Čukić wrote:
> > Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
> > we decide how many projects we are going to select.
> 
> And with that I'm completely fine.

I just found myself physically shaking my head at some of the more 
authoritarian-bent emails in this thread.

In KDE we have a GSoC team that's been taking care of GSoC and other student 
programs for years now, and these people are intimately familiar with GSoC 
dynamics on slot allocation and are thoroughly aware of the costs and benefits 
of allowing external projects to take part in GSoC under the KDE umbrella.

It would be toxic to try to micromanage the Krita team, the sysadmin team or 
the WikiToLearn team: KDE has historically worked best when those who do the 
work decide how it's done.

So here's a novel idea: how about we let the GSoC team do what they are good 
at and come up with their own policies and decisions in GSoC-related matters? 
At best, any concerns should be brought up with them on the relevant mailing 
list, rather than appointing ourselves as overseers in this thread.

Cheers,
-- 
Teo Mrnjavac
http://teom.org | t...@kde.org
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Klapetek]

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Teo Mrnjavac  wrote:

> On Thursday, February 4, 2016 11:53:48 AM CET Ivan Čukić wrote:
> > > Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
> > > we decide how many projects we are going to select.
> >
> > And with that I'm completely fine.
>
> I just found myself physically shaking my head at some of the more
> authoritarian-bent emails in this thread.
>
> In KDE we have a GSoC team that's been taking care of GSoC and other
> student
> programs for years now, and these people are intimately familiar with GSoC
> dynamics on slot allocation and are thoroughly aware of the costs and
> benefits
> of allowing external projects to take part in GSoC under the KDE umbrella.
>

That doesn't mean you can do whatever you want though,
even more so when it's a small group with no outer access.


> It would be toxic to try to micromanage the Krita team, the sysadmin team
> or
> the WikiToLearn team: KDE has historically worked best when those who do
> the
> work decide how it's done.
>
> So here's a novel idea: how about we let the GSoC team do what they are
> good
> at and come up with their own policies and decisions in GSoC-related
> matters?
> At best, any concerns should be brought up with them on the relevant
> mailing
> list, rather than appointing ourselves as overseers in this thread.
>

I did last week and where I got told to post it here. After all
it should be a community decision.

Cheers
-- 
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Jos Poortvliet]

On woensdag 3 februari 2016 22:28:34 CET Boudewijn Rempt wrote:
> I don't even remember what I thought the last couple of times, but I
> think it was something like this:
> 
> "if these are projects that we can likely bring under our umbrella, yes,
> we should, if that is not going to happen, then we shouldn't"
> 
> I cannot imagine I ever thought something different, but it's possible,
> and I remember someone telling me I was inconsistent, last year.

I think this rule makes sense. I think it won't be hard to get an agreement on 
our base principles from projects like Subsurface and Tupi (I mean the social 
side of things, not the tech part) and it would be a first step towards 
bringing them into the fold. Seems a good move to me.

In general, why don't we adopt a "yes unless" stance, rather than the 
opposite? If there's a good (not hypothetical) reason not to collaborate, fine 
- but otherwise, let's work with others.

> On Wed, 3 Feb 2016, Martin Klapetek wrote:
> > Hey,
> > so in the couple previous years we have collectively and
> > repeatedly rejected the idea of other projects, that are not
> > KDE projects by the Manifesto, to participate in KDE GSoC.
> > Namely we rejected Tupi and SubSurface solely because
> > "not a KDE project", GCompris became a KDE project and
> > then we let it participate.
> > 
> > Last year we got a non-KDE project in our GSoC despite the
> > previous years decisions, nobody really noticed and then there
> > was a huge discussion if that's ok or not, but by that time it was
> > a bit late.
> > 
> > So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
> > have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
> > participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?
> > 
> > Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
> > "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
> > of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
> > monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
> > to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
> > possible outcome.
> > 
> > On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
> > organization some extra money, which is always handy.
> > 
> > Cheers
> > --
> > Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer


-- 
Disclaimer:
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responsible for changes in the world, nor my view on it. Everything I say is 
meant in a positive and friendly way, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Bhushan Shah]

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Ivan Čukić  wrote:
> I am *very* against giving our slots to non-kde projects. We already
> had problems with this a few years ago, I would rather avoid the
> unpleasantries that happened back then.

Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
we decide how many projects we are going to select.

-- 
Bhushan Shah

http://bhush9.github.io
IRC Nick : bshah on Freenode
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Graesslin]

On Thursday, February 4, 2016 11:38:56 AM CET Ivan Čukić wrote:
> > I'm not sure whether it's against the manifesto. Is that really a
> > "benefit"
> > that we do some admin work for them? One could also see it as an
> 
> I would not be against us being admins of an external project that has
> its own slots.
> 
> I am *very* against giving our slots to non-kde projects. We already
> had problems with this a few years ago, I would rather avoid the
> unpleasantries that happened back then.

on the other hand last year we were not really able to fill the slots and 
lacked mentors.

Cheers
martin

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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Ivan Čukić]

> Just FTR, we don't give away our own slots, but we ask for slots after
> we decide how many projects we are going to select.

And with that I'm completely fine.

Cheerio,
Ivan

--
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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Alexander Neundorf]

On Wednesday, February 03, 2016 14:58:54 Martin Klapetek wrote:
...
> Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
> "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
> of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
> monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
> to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
> possible outcome.
> 
> On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
> organization some extra money, which is always handy.

IMO if we stand behind the manifesto, and they don't agree to it, we cannot 
accept them (except if they have serious plans to confirm with the manifesto 
soon).
An alternative might be to think about updating the manifesto.

Alex

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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Boudewijn Rempt]

I don't even remember what I thought the last couple of times, but I
think it was something like this:

"if these are projects that we can likely bring under our umbrella, yes,
we should, if that is not going to happen, then we shouldn't"

I cannot imagine I ever thought something different, but it's possible,
and I remember someone telling me I was inconsistent, last year.


On Wed, 3 Feb 2016, Martin Klapetek wrote:


Hey,
so in the couple previous years we have collectively and
repeatedly rejected the idea of other projects, that are not
KDE projects by the Manifesto, to participate in KDE GSoC.
Namely we rejected Tupi and SubSurface solely because
"not a KDE project", GCompris became a KDE project and
then we let it participate.

Last year we got a non-KDE project in our GSoC despite the
previous years decisions, nobody really noticed and then there
was a huge discussion if that's ok or not, but by that time it was
a bit late.

So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?

Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
"enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
possible outcome.

On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
organization some extra money, which is always handy.

Cheers
--
Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer




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Re: [kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Graesslin]

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 2:58:54 PM CET Martin Klapetek wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> so in the couple previous years we have collectively and
> repeatedly rejected the idea of other projects, that are not
> KDE projects by the Manifesto, to participate in KDE GSoC.
> Namely we rejected Tupi and SubSurface solely because
> "not a KDE project", GCompris became a KDE project and
> then we let it participate.
> 
> Last year we got a non-KDE project in our GSoC despite the
> previous years decisions, nobody really noticed and then there
> was a huge discussion if that's ok or not, but by that time it was
> a bit late.
> 
> So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
> have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
> participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?
> 
> Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
> "enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
> of the Manifesto.

I'm not sure whether it's against the manifesto. Is that really a "benefit" 
that we do some admin work for them? One could also see it as an outreach to 
projects: hey look, we can do that much for you, don't you want to join, then 
you get also mentioned on the dot...

> It's also less transparent overall (not able to
> monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
> to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
> possible outcome.

Agree on that point. Also if we go for allowing we need to have clear rules in 
place to evaluate who goes in and who doesn't.

Cheers
Martin

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[kde-community] Should we allow non-KDE projects to participate in GSoC under KDE?

[Martin Klapetek]

Hey,

so in the couple previous years we have collectively and
repeatedly rejected the idea of other projects, that are not
KDE projects by the Manifesto, to participate in KDE GSoC.
Namely we rejected Tupi and SubSurface solely because
"not a KDE project", GCompris became a KDE project and
then we let it participate.

Last year we got a non-KDE project in our GSoC despite the
previous years decisions, nobody really noticed and then there
was a huge discussion if that's ok or not, but by that time it was
a bit late.

So I'd like to have this cleared - does the community agree to
have non-KDE projects, those that do not follow the Manifesto,
participate in our GSoC this year and in the following years?

Imho this goes against the Manifesto as the projects gets to
"enjoy the benefits" without the complying with "commitments"
of the Manifesto. It's also less transparent overall (not able to
monitor progress as it's not on KDE infrastructure), can lead
to cheating and possibly kicking KDE out of GSoC in the worst
possible outcome.

On the other hand, every accepted project gets the mentoring
organization some extra money, which is always handy.

Cheers
-- 
Martin Klapetek | KDE Developer
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