FWD: Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-27 Thread cahfofpai
The mailing list server broke the formatting of my last email, so here it is 
again:
=
Dear Thomas, dear KDE community,

>From my point of view, the course of events was:
- sunday, the 15th of september, evening: I recieved an email from the Fight 
for the Future (https://https://www.fightforthefuture.org/ 
<https://https://www.fightforthefuture.org/>) newsletter containing a call to 
join the Digital Climate Strike and a link to 
https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/ 
<https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/>
- monday, the 16th of september: I read the email a day later and I thought: 
Great campaign, bringing the climate strike to the internet could really make 
an impact, I really should support this!
- wednesday, the 18th of september, 3:06 pm: I created the phabricator task 
"Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?" 
(https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717>)
- wednesday, the 18th of september, 5:10 pm: I pointed to the phabricator task 
in the KDE promo group on Matrix
- skadinna suggested me to share the idea on the community mailing list and so 
I did (thanks for this, skadinna, this was a crucial point to get the 
suggestion to the community and make the idea become reality!)
- so the discussion on this mailing list started: some spoke out against it, 
the board voted for it and there was much positive feedback about KDE 
participating in the digital climate strike
- thursday, the 19th of september, late evening: Members of the Promo group 
took action and implemented the banner on the website and pushed a social media 
post out (thanks to everybody who helped bringing this to reality!)
- friday, the 20th of september, a while after midnight: Kon reached out to 
Fight for the Future informing them that KDE supports the digital climate 
strike (finally, KDE got included in the section of "important" participants at 
https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/#participants 
<https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/#participants> (right at the end of 
the logos))

I suggested participating in the digital climate strike that late, because I 
did not know of the digital climate strike until I read about it in the 
newsletter email on monday. I proposed it that late on wednesday two days 
before the climate strike (rather late than never), because I did not really 
had time to do it earlier and it did not come to my mind much earlier that KDE 
could join the digital climate strike.

Of course I submit that such things should be proposed much earlier before the 
final date to have enough time to discuss and decide on it.

I'm proud that KDE supported this very important cause, because such a great 
community as KDE should not ignore the world outside their bubble and should 
also take responsibility for the world it exists in.

Thanks to everybody who supported this and made the participation of KDE in the 
global climate strike possible, even in this short amount of time!

I hope that discussion how KDE could be more environment-friendly goes on and 
leads to engagement and concrete actions into the right direction!

Your's truly
cahfofpai


Datum: 27. Sep. 2019, 17:01
Von: cahfof...@tuta.io
An: kde-community@kde.org
Cc: kde-community@kde.org
Betreff: Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the 
(Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)


> Dear Thomas, dear KDE community,
>
> From my point of view, the course of events was:
> sunday, the 15th of september, evening: I recieved an email from the Fight 
> for the Future (https://> https://www.fightforthefuture.org/ 
> <https://www.fightforthefuture.org/>> ) newsletter containing a call to join 
> the Digital Climate Strike and a link to > 
> https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/ 
> <https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/>
> monday, the 16th of september: I read the email a day later and I thought: 
> Great campaign, bringing the climate strike to the internet could really make 
> an impact, I really should support this!
> wednesday, the 18th of september, 3:06 pm: I created the phabricator task "> 
> Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?" (> 
> https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717 <https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717>> ) 
> wednesday, the 18th of september, 5:10 pm: I pointed to the phabricator task 
> in the KDE promo group on Matrix
> skadinna suggested me to share the idea on the community mailing list and so 
> I did (thanks for this, skadinna, this was a crucial point to get the 
> suggestion to the community and make the idea become reality!)
> so the discussion on this mailing list started: some spoke out against it, 
> the board voted for it and there was much positive feedback about KDE 
> participating in the digital climate strike
> thursday, the 19th

Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-27 Thread cahfofpai
Dear Thomas, dear KDE community,

>From my point of view, the course of events was:sunday, the 15th of september, 
>evening: I recieved an email from the Fight for the Future 
>(https://https://www.fightforthefuture.org/ 
>) newsletter containing a call to join the 
>Digital Climate Strike and a link to https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/ 
>
monday, the 16th of september: I read the email a day later and I thought: 
Great campaign, bringing the climate strike to the internet could really make 
an impact, I really should support this!
wednesday, the 18th of september, 3:06 pm: I created the phabricator task 
"Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?" 
(https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717 ) 
wednesday, the 18th of september, 5:10 pm: I pointed to the phabricator task in 
the KDE promo group on Matrix
skadinna suggested me to share the idea on the community mailing list and so I 
did (thanks for this, skadinna, this was a crucial point to get the suggestion 
to the community and make the idea become reality!)
so the discussion on this mailing list started: some spoke out against it, the 
board voted for it and there was much positive feedback about KDE participating 
in the digital climate strike
thursday, the 19th of september, late evening: Members of the Promo group took 
action and implemented the banner on the website and pushed a social media post 
out (thanks to everybody who helped bringing this to reality!)
friday, the 20th of september, a while after midnight: Kon reached out to Fight 
for the Future informing them that KDE supports the digital climate strike 
(finally, KDE got included in the section of "important" participants at 
https://digital.globalclimatestrike.net/#participants 
 (right at the end of 
the logos))
I suggested participating in the digital climate strike that late, because I 
did not know of the digital climate strike until I read about it in the 
newsletter email on monday. I proposed it that late on wednesday two days 
before the climate strike (rather late than never), because I did not really 
had time to do it earlier and it did not come to my mind much earlier that KDE 
could join the digital climate strike.
Of course I submit that such things should be proposed much earlier before the 
final date to have enough time to discuss and decide on it.

I'm proud that KDE supported this very important cause, because such a great 
community as KDE should not ignore the world outside their bubble and should 
also take responsibility for the world it exists in.

Thanks to everybody who supported this and made the participation of KDE in the 
global climate strike possible, even in this short amount of time!
I hope that discussion how KDE could be more environment-friendly goes on and 
leads to engagement and concrete actions into the right direction!

Your's truly
cahfofpai
22. Sep. 2019, 17:45 von t.pfeiffer...@gmail.com:

> Hi Christoph,
>
> On 20.09.19 22:35, Christoph Cullmann wrote:
>
>> I must confess I missed that we decided to participate, too, but digging
>> in the mails of this thread it seems the board of e.V. did so. (if I
>> don't misread
>> Aleix mail)
>>
>
> From my perspective, the course of events was:
> - On Wednesday evening, Sept 18th, cahfofpai opened a Phabricator ticket
> "Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?" [1]
> and around the same time started a thread on this list
> - The promo team wasn't sure whether it would be okay for them to do
> this because there weren't many reactions on the list and they didn't
> want to go against the community
> - At 1am of the 19th, Aleix asked me for my opinion on the idea, since
> he knew I was active in the climate movement. I told him that it made a
> lot of sense to me, and that we'd need to get it going on Thursday in
> order for it to have any effect in getting more people to join the
> strike on the streets
> - Aleix told me that the board had a call the next morning and he would
> propose a vote on it there
> - After the meeting, Aleix replied in this thread that the board
> approves of the action
> - At that point, the promo team started to get into "action mode", and I
> pushed them to get the word out still on Thursday because I believed
> that it would be far more likely for people to decide to join a protest
> "tomorrow" than "today"
>
>> This is OK for me, as for that the board got elected, to do some decision
>> when we can't wait for weeks to vote on something.
>>
>> Thought I would have appreciated if at least a 5 lines post of the
>> announcement
>> that "KDE joins this" would have been done on the planet or here to make
>> clear what happens. I am not sure that communicating this over twitter only
>> is the best way to do that, given we have the lists/planet/dot.
>>
>> (not that 

Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-22 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
Hi Christoph,

On 20.09.19 22:35, Christoph Cullmann wrote:

> I must confess I missed that we decided to participate, too, but digging
> in the mails of this thread it seems the board of e.V. did so. (if I
> don't misread
> Aleix mail)

>From my perspective, the course of events was:
- On Wednesday evening, Sept 18th, cahfofpai opened a Phabricator ticket
"Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?" [1]
and around the same time started a thread on this list
- The promo team wasn't sure whether it would be okay for them to do
this because there weren't many reactions on the list and they didn't
want to go against the community
- At 1am of the 19th, Aleix asked me for my opinion on the idea, since
he knew I was active in the climate movement. I told him that it made a
lot of sense to me, and that we'd need to get it going on Thursday in
order for it to have any effect in getting more people to join the
strike on the streets
- Aleix told me that the board had a call the next morning and he would
propose a vote on it there
- After the meeting, Aleix replied in this thread that the board
approves of the action
- At that point, the promo team started to get into "action mode", and I
pushed them to get the word out still on Thursday because I believed
that it would be far more likely for people to decide to join a protest
"tomorrow" than "today"

> This is OK for me, as for that the board got elected, to do some decision
> when we can't wait for weeks to vote on something.
> 
> Thought I would have appreciated if at least a 5 lines post of the
> announcement
> that "KDE joins this" would have been done on the planet or here to make
> clear what happens. I am not sure that communicating this over twitter only
> is the best way to do that, given we have the lists/planet/dot.
> 
> (not that twitter is bad to advertise it to the world)
> 
> I think this would have been be possible to discuss more properly if one
> didn't bring this up
> a few days before it needs to happens.

> Some people in the thread said they had this strike marked since months
> thought it seems
> nobody thought about communicating it to our community here a bit
> earlier that "let's do this
> this week".

I can't say why cahfofpai proposed to join the digital strike on Wednesday.
What I can say is that when I first learned about the digital strike a
few weeks ago (not sure when the idea for the digital strike was born,
the "marked on my calendar for months" was referring to the strike on
the streets), I must admit that I didn't dare proposing for KDE to join
because I knew that some people would react negatively and I am terribly
conflict-averse. I simply chickened out.
It was only when I learned that someone else proposed it that I jumped
on the bandwagon.

So yes, I could have suggested that KDE should join the digital strike a
earlier, had I mustered the courage to go against the nay-sayers. My
bad, will try to be better next time.

Thank you to cahfofpai for being more brave than I was.

Cheers,
Thomas

> Greetings
> Christoph
> 
> P.S.
> 
> :-) You might not remember, but I did put up the "we oppose software
> patents" strike banner
> more than a decade ago on kde.org and got burned a lot for that, even
> thought we discussed that internally
> at that time.

People who take action will always be burned. This is probably the way
any community works, and those who take action sadly have to expect and
live with that.


[1] https://phabricator.kde.org/T11717


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-21 Thread Christoph Cullmann

Hi,

btw., the 20th is over, shall we perhaps remove the banner again?

Looks somehow strange now.

Greetings
Christoph

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-20 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Christoph Cullmann - 20.09.19, 22:35:26 CEST:
> Some people in the thread said they had this strike marked since
> months thought it seems nobody thought about communicating it to our 
> community here a bit earlier that "let's do this this week".

I indeed did not think of it as for me the "computer and free software 
stuff" was not connected to the global climate strike / protests. But it 
is.

I also did not know that others here were concerned about climate as 
well. In hindsight… that is a bit naive, since many people care, but I 
did not make the connection and that is what it was.

So kudos to Jens for bringing this up here.

I am grateful for the support on Mastodon, Twitter and kde.org.

Here in Nuremberg as well as in a lot of other cities the number of 
participating people by far exceeded the expectations.

We can learn from it and next time such an announcement could be in 
other places as well.

-- 
Martin




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-20 Thread Christoph Cullmann

Hi,

I learn by social media that KDE is now endorsing this very strike. 
Well, I
obviously do not. There are better activities actually worth endorsing. 
Too
bad some people think they can simply go and speak on whole of KDE's 
behalf? I
feel bitter having to distance myself from a "KDE" position, despite 
thinking
to be part of KDE. (also be aware of the irony to add tiny resource 
usages to
websites with those additional banners, and KDE now linking to some 
place
which endorses Twitter & Facebook, incl. Twitter & Google tracking on 
the

website... not my future but another crisis)


I must confess I missed that we decided to participate, too, but digging
in the mails of this thread it seems the board of e.V. did so. (if I 
don't misread

Aleix mail)

This is OK for me, as for that the board got elected, to do some 
decision

when we can't wait for weeks to vote on something.

Thought I would have appreciated if at least a 5 lines post of the 
announcement

that "KDE joins this" would have been done on the planet or here to make
clear what happens. I am not sure that communicating this over twitter 
only

is the best way to do that, given we have the lists/planet/dot.

(not that twitter is bad to advertise it to the world)

I think this would have been be possible to discuss more properly if one 
didn't bring this up

a few days before it needs to happens.

Some people in the thread said they had this strike marked since months 
thought it seems
nobody thought about communicating it to our community here a bit 
earlier that "let's do this

this week".

Greetings
Christoph

P.S.

:-) You might not remember, but I did put up the "we oppose software 
patents" strike banner
more than a decade ago on kde.org and got burned a lot for that, even 
thought we discussed that internally

at that time.

--
Ignorance is bliss...
https://cullmann.io | https://kate-editor.org


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-20 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
My last reply here due to getting OT, though still KDE related at end, more in 
PM if. I need to spend the available time on KDE software itself again :)

Am Freitag, 20. September 2019, 02:00:38 CEST schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer:
> On 19.09.19 20:58, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > If you look at history, politicians will also not be really impressed by
> > peaceful strikes, other than looking where they need to adapt their image.
> > The numbers they look at are poll results
> 
> Yes, and poll results are affected by voters' opinion being influenced
> by images of protests.
> 
> Before Fridays for Future started, climate change was ranking pretty low
> in people's priorities. Now, for example, 63% of Germans believe that
> climate protection should take precedence over economic growth [1]. When
> even Germans think that, that says a lot.
> 
> Of course FFF wasn't the only thing that happened between then and now,
> we've also had several temperature records, news of melting ice caps and
> burning forests so there is no clear causal link, but I still believe
> that when people see so many young people out on the streets every week,
> it does affect them.

I fear that people experiencing things by themselves has the bigger effect 
here, when they have been struck by weeks of unusual hot days, no more snow in 
winter and are seeing the rivers & lakes close-by almost dried out, their 
gardens and forests and fields next to their home dying away, burning forests 
in the news for weeks as well as its smell in the nose of many.
And remarkably less dead insects on the car fronts.
Seeing/feeling is believing for most, isn't it?

The protests might be adding a bit, but aren't they rather an expression of 
the actual opinion of people? Do adults really change their mind (and actions) 
because kids are on the street (worse, avoiding school)? Now, the link you 
gave also tells that quite some people believe the FfF protests have an 
influence on politics. You will also find research that even more people 
believe in the influence of the moon on humans. So research needed on effects, 
not believe.
And today's blocking of streets (here in Ger), I doubt this will win over more 
people, rather enforce existing opinions. (even mean more resource usage,as 
people will have to by-pass blockades to reach their destination or sit 
waiting in running cars, so smart, do protesters really understand the 
challenge, or just celebrate their street powers?)

> > And the numbers business looks at are sales results. If you want to change
> > things with them, use those numbers. Or become politician or business and
> > try to do the right thing.
> > And that's also how real strikes work; business not being able to make
> > business, to pressure business leaders' mind to change.
> 
> School kids not going to school does bother people, as evidenced by lots
> of people having a strong opinion about it, one way or another. Why is
> it not a "real strike" just because those striking are still in school?

Because the pupils are not striking on their opponent or the cause in the 
matter, but actually on themselves and the future. They are stealing education 
options from themselves, the chance to become better enabled & more informed 
grown-ups.
How do you want to save the world in a competent way if you are lacking in 
e.g. math, chemistry, biology, physics? How can you understand and try to 
verify the reports of scientists which research the world and try to analyze 
the observations done and their potential causes? How can you understand if 
actions & laws proposed to deal with things are properly done? How can you 
tell whether the changes you put on your list of demands actually make sense, 
do scale, are effective and deployable? Why are you harming the needed 
knowledge to once become an accountable business leader or politician oneself?
Striking on education is actually the most counter-productive anti-future 
thing to be done here, no? Dump people will do dump things.

It should be public striking of consumption of resource-hugging entertainment 
& luxury goods as well as the bad alternatives for real needs, that would be 
in line instead with what would be the intention of those FfF activists. Be 
out in the shopping streets on Saturday, but not buying stuff, instead invite 
other consumers to be informed about their effects and options. Present to 
people in perceptible ways the mechanisms of what they do and what it does in 
places usually invisible to them. And what they could do instead already now 
for the same purposes, so they can compare effective costs (money and 
conscience). And what you propose politicians should do and why.
Would that not have much bigger changes to reach and convince other people not 
yet sharing the opinion and views? It would impress me I assume, if still 
needed. Avoiding school work does not.
What do you do on the WE that is more important than school during work days?
Extrem position?`No, 

Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
On 19.09.19 20:58, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 19:35:53 CEST schrieb Nate Graham:
>> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
>>> More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
>>> handling or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really
>>> need politicians to decide for you that you should look at what you
>>> consume and do and what harm it does to others, and then adopt things
>>> accordingly? Are you really all helpless victims of the bad evil system?
>>> Not responsible for the damage you create, because "politicians did not
>>> put a bin here, their fault that I drop my garbage on the ground"?
>>
>> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that
>> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take
>> individual action!
> 
> So you have internalized that? ;)
> 
>> But it is not enough, and it never will be.
> 
> Yes. And no-where did I (intent to) say otherwise.
> 
> In case you missed my point, allow me to repeat it:
> asking others to move first, while not moving oneself is not a convincing 
> argument. To be a serious proposer for a goal, one should show that one 
> strives to the goal already.

We are encouraging people to join the Global Climate strike, yes. But
who says we're not doing the same?
I, for one, am not only participating in the strike, I'm helping as a
steward ("Ordner" in German).
And talking to some people in KDE, I've realized that many of them
weren't even aware of the strike, but when they learned about it, they
thought it was a good thing.
So by informing people about the strike, we can maybe help make it grow
larger. That is a good thing.

> KDE as organization so far has not. And thus so far is not a convincing 
> supporter of the goal. Like a car company which does blabla about how small 
> EVs should be used by people rather and how they might build some in the 
> future, but currently selling big SUVs and wasting lots of resources (and it 
> does not matter what worker privately do, when it comes to company business).
> Having lip-only supporters as allies is not helping, it's hard to trust them.

> And actually it harms an organisation as well if it shouts "save the world!" 
> but has not shown own efforts. Like someone eating meat and mumbling "people 
> should eat vegetarian". Who should feel motivated to change things for you, 
> who takes you serious?

It is true that environmental protection has not been high on our agenda
in the past, but the board has started looking into the topic late last
year, and in July the membership of KDE e.V. has started drafting an
environmental responsibility policy.
It will still take a while to finish because while there is broad
consensus that it's a good idea, there is a wide range of opinions about
the details.

I don't think anybody believes we should stop at that, though. There are
already more ideas, such as focusing our software on energy-saving or
supporting older hardware, cooperating with eco-friendly hardware
manufacturers or encouraging our current hardware partners to make more
sustainable hardware.

> If you look at history, politicians will also not be really impressed by 
> peaceful strikes, other than looking where they need to adapt their image. 
> The 
> numbers they look at are poll results

Yes, and poll results are affected by voters' opinion being influenced
by images of protests.

Before Fridays for Future started, climate change was ranking pretty low
in people's priorities. Now, for example, 63% of Germans believe that
climate protection should take precedence over economic growth [1]. When
even Germans think that, that says a lot.

Of course FFF wasn't the only thing that happened between then and now,
we've also had several temperature records, news of melting ice caps and
burning forests so there is no clear causal link, but I still believe
that when people see so many young people out on the streets every week,
it does affect them.

> And the numbers business looks at are sales results. If you want to change 
> things with them, use those numbers. Or become politician or business and try 
> to do the right thing.
> And that's also how real strikes work; business not being able to make 
> business, to pressure business leaders' mind to change.

School kids not going to school does bother people, as evidenced by lots
of people having a strong opinion about it, one way or another. Why is
it not a "real strike" just because those striking are still in school?

> I would like to see KDE here being long-term serious, and not just doing an 
> ad-hoc "yes, evilevil, we agree, protest against it, people, are we not also 
> good (and back to current harmful business)", without existing track.

I want KDE to do both!
I want us to use our reach to inform people about climate action, and of
course I also want us to do our part to save our planet!
But who says we can't do both?

Cheers,

Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 19:35:53 CEST schrieb Nate Graham:
> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
> > handling or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really
> > need politicians to decide for you that you should look at what you
> > consume and do and what harm it does to others, and then adopt things
> > accordingly? Are you really all helpless victims of the bad evil system?
> > Not responsible for the damage you create, because "politicians did not
> > put a bin here, their fault that I drop my garbage on the ground"?
> 
> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that
> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take
> individual action!

So you have internalized that? ;)

> But it is not enough, and it never will be.

Yes. And no-where did I (intent to) say otherwise.

In case you missed my point, allow me to repeat it:
asking others to move first, while not moving oneself is not a convincing 
argument. To be a serious proposer for a goal, one should show that one 
strives to the goal already.

KDE as organization so far has not. And thus so far is not a convincing 
supporter of the goal. Like a car company which does blabla about how small 
EVs should be used by people rather and how they might build some in the 
future, but currently selling big SUVs and wasting lots of resources (and it 
does not matter what worker privately do, when it comes to company business).
Having lip-only supporters as allies is not helping, it's hard to trust them.

And actually it harms an organisation as well if it shouts "save the world!" 
but has not shown own efforts. Like someone eating meat and mumbling "people 
should eat vegetarian". Who should feel motivated to change things for you, 
who takes you serious?

If you look at history, politicians will also not be really impressed by 
peaceful strikes, other than looking where they need to adapt their image. The 
numbers they look at are poll results
And the numbers business looks at are sales results. If you want to change 
things with them, use those numbers. Or become politician or business and try 
to do the right thing.
And that's also how real strikes work; business not being able to make 
business, to pressure business leaders' mind to change.

I would like to see KDE here being long-term serious, and not just doing an 
ad-hoc "yes, evilevil, we agree, protest against it, people, are we not also 
good (and back to current harmful business)", without existing track.

Cheers
Friedrich




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
+1 


tor 2019-09-19 klockan 11:35 -0600 skrev Nate Graham:
> On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually
> > handling
> > or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need
> > politicians
> > to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do
> > and what
> > harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you
> > really all
> > helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the
> > damage you
> > create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault
> > that I drop
> > my garbage on the ground"?
> 
> It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea
> that 
> each individual must take action on their own. And we should take 
> individual action! But it is not enough, and it never will be.
> 
> I personally have spent over $50,000 in the last year to make my
> house 
> carbon-negative through a combination of energy efficiency
> improvements, 
> replacement of gas appliances with electric versions, and
> installation 
> of a large solar array. I plan to buy an electric car in the next
> year 
> or two so that my day-to-day personal fossil fuel consumption is
> zero. 
> But still, it's not enough! These actions amount to a drop in the
> bucket 
> despite having been accomplished at great personal cost. None of my 
> neighbors have seen fit to do the same. And it does not offset the 
> fossil fuel consumption of the plastic in the products I buy and
> their 
> packaging, or the multiple international plane trips I now take to 
> attend KDE events.
> 
> Generally there are no alternatives to polluting actions such as
> these. 
> There is no electric train powered by renewably-generated
> electricity 
> that I can take to cross the ocean. Almost always there is no 
> alternative product made entirely of wood or metal, or wrapped in
> paper 
> instead of plastic.
> 
> Only through collective action can a problem of this magnitude
> actually 
> be addressed. We must imbue our organizations with our values so
> that 
> the system itself tilts in the direction of fixing the problem 
> automatically. Our own personal moral righteousness is not enough
> and 
> never will be.
> 
> 
> Nate
> 



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Nate Graham

On 9/19/19 11:05 AM, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:

More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually handling
or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need politicians
to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do and what
harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you really all
helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the damage you
create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault that I drop
my garbage on the ground"?


It's a common polluter tactic to get people to internalize the idea that 
each individual must take action on their own. And we should take 
individual action! But it is not enough, and it never will be.


I personally have spent over $50,000 in the last year to make my house 
carbon-negative through a combination of energy efficiency improvements, 
replacement of gas appliances with electric versions, and installation 
of a large solar array. I plan to buy an electric car in the next year 
or two so that my day-to-day personal fossil fuel consumption is zero. 
But still, it's not enough! These actions amount to a drop in the bucket 
despite having been accomplished at great personal cost. None of my 
neighbors have seen fit to do the same. And it does not offset the 
fossil fuel consumption of the plastic in the products I buy and their 
packaging, or the multiple international plane trips I now take to 
attend KDE events.


Generally there are no alternatives to polluting actions such as these. 
There is no electric train powered by renewably-generated electricity 
that I can take to cross the ocean. Almost always there is no 
alternative product made entirely of wood or metal, or wrapped in paper 
instead of plastic.


Only through collective action can a problem of this magnitude actually 
be addressed. We must imbue our organizations with our values so that 
the system itself tilts in the direction of fixing the problem 
automatically. Our own personal moral righteousness is not enough and 
never will be.



Nate



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
Hi Thomas,

Am Donnerstag, 19. September 2019, 15:04:41 CEST schrieb Thomas Pfeiffer:
> Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which is
> why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy (it's
> currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we first
> thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even more.

Okay, that's promising a bit.

> However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
> Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
> to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
> effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing our
> audience about the strike.

And this is what I have been concerned about. That this is just a sudden 
gesture following mainstream, so "we also have done something! we are also 
part of the good ones! (now back to current harmful practice)".
Actually this is blurring the amount of things which would need to be done to 
get serious effects for real, and also not helping to find what actually can 
be done here.
What I said is said in the context that I have not seen serious targeted KDE 
community activity WRT environment destruction matters. And thus am totally 
unsure if the overall KDE community is a reliable partner here for those who 
work on fixing the world WRT environment damage. Or if most here do not care, 
or even dispute it or their personal responsibility to adapt their lifestyle.
Heck, KDE members use Gmail & other questionable services despite the claim to 
aspire "[a] world in which everyone has control over their digital life and 
enjoys freedom and privacy.". So what level of being serious can be expected 
here?

More, I see all those "strikes" are substitutes for people actually handling 
or at least for postponing their own handling. Do you really need politicians 
to decide for you that you should look at what you consume and do and what 
harm it does to others, and then adopt things accordingly? Are you really all 
helpless victims of the bad evil system? Not responsible for the damage you 
create, because "politicians did not put a bin here, their fault that I drop 
my garbage on the ground"?

Who actually are the people striking against? Any chance it could be: 
themselves? To me this is rather destructive activism, organized shifting of 
responsibility to others/the system, with a dose of self-celebration. And 
stealing focus from those who are active, but missing e.g. proper promotion.

Has Free Software been created by striking?

Do not black the pages, list the solutions/approaches known so people can do 
act now in more responsible ways.

Cheers
Friedrich




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Martin Steigerwald
Hi!

Thomas Pfeiffer - 19.09.19, 15:04:41 CEST: 
> On 19.09.19 13:52, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> > Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb 
cahfof...@tuta.io:
> >> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >> 
> >> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate
> >> protests and hopefully also in human history: People in more than
> >> 3500 places worldwide are joining the Global Climate Strike to
> >> draw attention to the rising climate crisis.
> >> 
> >> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests
> >> and show solidarity with the people engaging for this very
> >> important topic?> 
> > If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should
> > rather have it on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling
> > one day the year "oh yes, so important topic, we also agree
> > someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the rest of the year
> > continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's quicker &
> > less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> > powerful ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> > 
> > I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone
> > doing this in my name (as active contributor to KDE software
> > projects), when it's not backed by official applied policies. You
> > are actually harming the strike, and shadowing those people who are
> > not just signaling, but serious by what they do.
> 
> As a very active member of the climate movement in several
> organizations, my time spent there being the main reason why I didn't
> run for another board term, I disagree.
> 
> Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which
> is why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy
> (it's currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we
> first thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even
> more.
> 
> However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
> Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
> to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
> effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing
> our audience about the strike.
>
> Since I am deep in the "climate bubble", Friday the 20th of September
> has been red in my calendar for months and I've been hearing about it
> every day since then.
> Outside of that bubble, however, apparently it's by far not well known
> enough.

I believe both approaches do not contradict each other.

KDE community can promote the climate strike through their channels on a 
rather short term and still work a on long term approach or commitment.

I'd love to see us do both. KDE is already a truly awesome community. 
And one can argue not to engage into "political" stuff as a free software 
community, but this is much more than "political" stuff. This is a topic 
that affects all living beings on Earth. For me it would be a remarkable 
step for a free software based community to stand up for sustainability.

20th is marked in my calendar since a long time.  I certainly will go to 
the local demonstration. And it will not be the first demonstration I 
have been to. For me it is not fair to leave all the necessary work to 
facilitate necessary, long overdue changes to our youngest generation. 
Those young people deserve our support and commitment. They deserve the 
action that is needed. And I believe there are quite some of that 
generation with KDE already anyway, for example due to the various 
student programs.

Strong action to reduce the human influence on the climate, ideally back 
to zero, and to remember a more loving relationship with mother earth 
and all the living beings on her will also decide about the future of 
KDE, both as a community and as a collection of wonderful software which 
can be used for all kinds of good causes.

So I am committed to do the best I can, even when it can be overwhelming 
at times. I know I will be there and contribute as best I can to this 
good cause. No matter how the community decision turns out to be.

Thank you all for bringing this up here.

Best,
-- 
Martin




Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Jens
Don't you think you're overcomplicating this? Or "crippling all things
but perfection"? The school strike was carried out by kids who, I am
sure, had quite a carbon footprint themselves. At which level of
individual asceticism is it allower to protest systematic problems or
demand that the very few who CAN make an actual chance that will have
an impact do so?

I think you raise some MONUMENTALLY relevant things though which really
should be carried over into the future (no matter how this thread pans
out) - what can we as a community do to improve our own ecological
footprint beyond what is already done? 
Just off the top of my head - work even closer with Postmarket OS, as
well as Fairphone (if possible), seems brilliant. Produce software that
is intended to reuse old hardware, or repurpose them. I would love to
see this discussed in another thread btw it seems like a great sort of
focus for development and design.

But that's beside the point. The strike is about showing that a lot of
people consider the ecological and human disaster we are living in
currently needs to be at least halted and for that to happen taken
seriously by politician and businesses at a larger scale - it is not so
much about individual recycling or small actions in itself. 

We should improve ourselves of course, but demanding personal
perfection to criticize a systematic imperfection is just dooming all
political actions and protests completely. 

Also considering the dire straights we're in - I'd say starting
somewhere - ANYWHERE at this point feels more relevant than trying to
get the perfect run up first and then perhaps missing the race
entirely. 

/Jens

TL;DR I would love for KDE to be part of this - but at the same time I
think we should try to carry a discussion onwards about how to improve
KDE's climate effects in the future. 

tor 2019-09-19 klockan 13:52 +0200 skrev Friedrich W. H. Kossebau:
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb 
> cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> > 
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate
> > protests and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> > worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the
> > rising
> > climate crisis.
> > 
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests
> > and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
> 
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather
> have it 
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year
> "oh yes, 
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" ,
> and the 
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities
> ("it's quicker 
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> powerful 
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> 
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone
> doing this 
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when
> it's not 
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the
> strike, and 
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by
> what they 
> do.
> 
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware
> there are 
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I
> would 
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care
> currently. 
> So it should not pretend it does.
> 
> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on 
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be
> short on 
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the
> most 
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of
> just 
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral
> resources? 
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I
> agree ;)
> 
> Cheers
> Friedrich
> 
> 



Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Thomas Pfeiffer
Hi Friedrich,

On 19.09.19 13:52, Friedrich W. H. Kossebau wrote:
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
>> Hello to all members of the KDE community,
>>
>> this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and
>> hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide
>> are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
>> climate crisis.
>>
>> The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
>> solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
> 
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have it 
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh yes, 
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the 
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's 
> quicker 
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more powerful 
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
> 
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing this 
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not 
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike, and 
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what they 
> do.

As a very active member of the climate movement in several
organizations, my time spent there being the main reason why I didn't
run for another board term, I disagree.

Of course KDE needs to care about our own environmental impact, which is
why we have the ongoing discussion about an environmental policy (it's
currently happening on the KDE e.V. members list because we first
thought about a KDE e.V. policy), and yes, we should do even more.

However, that should not keep us from participating in this campaign.
Promoting the Global Climate Strike today through our channels (it has
to be today, since the strike is tomorrow!) could in itself have an
effect. This is not about a grand gesture, this is about informing our
audience about the strike.

Since I am deep in the "climate bubble", Friday the 20th of September
has been red in my calendar for months and I've been hearing about it
every day since then.
Outside of that bubble, however, apparently it's by far not well known
enough.

My hypothesis is that there are a relevant number of people in our
target audience who care enough about the topic that they might join the
strike, but not enough to already know about it.

If informing our audience about the strike gets some people to learn
about and join it, it's been worth it.

> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there 
> are 
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would 
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care currently. 
> So it should not pretend it does.

We should not demand anything from anybody, of course, but we can tell
people that this crucially important thing is happening, and we support it.

> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on 
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short on 
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most 
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just 
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources? 
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree ;)

All of these are important, and I want to make 2019 the year where KDE
significantly boots our environment protection efforts, but I'd see
informing peoplke about the Global Climate Strike as an integral part of
that effort, not as something we could only do after we've finished the
other things.

Cheers,
Thomas


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Harald Sitter
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
 wrote:
>
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there are
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care currently.
> So it should not pretend it does.

That's a rather dismissive and outright demotivating thing to say to
the community don't you think? There is no formal decision making
process for the community, we do things and as we do things they
become part of our culture and everything we do starts with the
individual. So saying the individual's actions don't matter in the
grand scheme of KDE is not only wrong it's not "KDE".

And then of course the KDE e.V., which can make formal decisions, is
very much in the process of establishing a policy vis a vis the stuff
the e.v. has control over. Such as use of funds.

HS


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Laszlo Papp
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau 
wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests
> and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have
> it
> on its agenda every day,
>

I just want to add another specific comment here for an action point. I
believe anything that qualifies as every day focus should go to the KDE
manifesto first before publicly backing it:

https://manifesto.kde.org/

Every big change starts within ...


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Laszlo Papp
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 12:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau 
wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests
> and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places
> worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have
> it
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh
> yes,
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and
> the
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's
> quicker
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more
> powerful
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
>
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing
> this
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike,
> and
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what
> they
> do.
>
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there
> are
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care
> currently.
> So it should not pretend it does.
>
> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short
> on
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources?
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree
> ;)
>
> Cheers
> Friedrich
>

Yeah, completely agree with you.

Striking is nice, but the real thing is what happens when they go home from
the strike. Do they wake up the next day as mission completed or do they
actually live their lives like that every single day and minutes as you
say? Is it exemplary if not or showing bad example in this category? Is it
just an impulse for them or lifestyle?

Also, reading both threads about strike and FSFE (I do not think our board
is diversified enough), I feel that KDE wants to be more extrovert than
introvert. I think, instead of telling others what to do, KDE ought to
focus what *KDE* should do.


Re: KDE should rather act then just "strike" (Re: Should KDE join the (Digital) Global Climate Strike this friday?)

2019-09-19 Thread Ben Cooksley
On Thu, Sep 19, 2019 at 1:52 PM Friedrich W. H. Kossebau
 wrote:
>
> Am Mittwoch, 18. September 2019, 18:01:18 CEST schrieb cahfof...@tuta.io:
> > Hello to all members of the KDE community,
> >
> > this friday (september the 20th) will be a big day in climate protests and
> > hopefully also in human history: People in more than 3500 places worldwide
> > are joining the Global Climate Strike to draw attention to the rising
> > climate crisis.
> >
> > The question I want to ask you is: Should KDE join this protests and show
> > solidarity with the people engaging for this very important topic?
>
> If KDE (as organization) found this topic important, it should rather have it
> on its agenda every day, instead of just signaling one day the year "oh yes,
> so important topic, we also agree someone(tm) should fix this!!1!" , and the
> rest of the year continue using flights also for KDE activities ("it's quicker
> & less expensive, sorry") or buy that new device because it is more powerful
> ("I could not stand the old one, sorry").
>
> I would find it ridiculous and would be embarrassed to see someone doing this
> in my name (as active contributor to KDE software projects), when it's not
> backed by official applied policies. You are actually harming the strike, and
> shadowing those people who are not just signaling, but serious by what they
> do.
>
> Act first, then demand acts from others, please. And yes, I am aware there are
> individuals here who privately act with environment in mind (he, I would
> consider myself one). But as organisation KDE does not really care currently.
> So it should not pretend it does.
>
> Like, are KDE's products evaluated in hindsight of their impact on
> environment, other than side-effect of economically importance to be short on
> need of device resources?
> Is e.V. travel support making sure people tried hard to pick the most
> environment-neutral traffic way (where possible to tell), instead of just
> looking at money?
> And do KDE make sure its servers are run on environment-neutral resources?
> If not, shutting them down on strike would be an act indeed, there I agree ;)

The vast majority of our systems are hosted by Hetzner, who detail
their resource utilisation at
https://www.hetzner.com/unternehmen/umweltschutz/

>
> Cheers
> Friedrich
>
>

Cheers,
Ben