D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Elvis Angelaccio]

elvisangelaccio added a comment.


  In D12077#258637 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > One more idea: Would it make sense to land each part of the rework on a 
dedicated rework branch first, and only once everything fits together (both in 
design and implementation) merge that branch to master?
  >
  > This would avoid huge dependency stacks as well as the need to rush for 
deadlines in the release schedule.
  
  
  Yes, that would help a lot!

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  One more idea: Would it make sense to land each part of the rework on a 
dedicated rework branch first, and only once everything fits together (both in 
design and implementation) merge that branch to master?
  
  This would avoid huge dependency stacks as well as the need to rush for 
deadlines in the release schedule.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Elvis Angelaccio]

elvisangelaccio added a comment.


  In D12077#257911 , @abetts wrote:
  
  > It would be cool if we could introduce it in this release and polish a lot 
for the next release. I give it a +1. @ngraham ?
  
  
  My understanding (according to the discussion in T8552 
) is that we don't want two buttons for 
"Short View" and "Detailed Tree View", but rather three buttons to match 
Dolphin's Icon/Compact/Detail view modes.
  
  So it wouldn't make much sense to ship this patch only for one or few 
releases.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  It would be cool if we could introduce it in this release and polish a lot 
for the next release. I give it a +1. @ngraham ?

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Elvis Angelaccio]

elvisangelaccio added a comment.


  So, are we going to revert this? Tagging is in two days...

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Elvis Angelaccio]

elvisangelaccio added a comment.


  In D12077#256224 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > I wonder if we should revert this before it ships to users. I'd rather not 
introduce this in 5.46 in case we decide to change it again for 5.47.
  >
  > Better accumulate visual changes a bit, because constantly changing the 
dialog might get annoying for users.
  
  
  I agree, there is no reason to rush it.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  I wonder if we should revert this before it ships to users. I'd rather not 
introduce this in 5.46 if we are about to change it again for 5.47.
  
  Better accumulate visual changes a bit, because constantly changing the 
dialog might get annoying for users.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  In D12077#249447 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > In D12077#249446 , @abetts wrote:
  >
  > > Somewhat related, why does the Size header have a number of items listed 
and not the size in bytes for all the items inside the folder?
  > >
  > > size
  > >
  > > 0 items
  > >  2 items
  > >
  > > Shouldn't it be:
  > >
  > > size
  > >  1 kb
  > >  3 Mb
  > >
  > > ??
  >
  >
  > It's like that in Dolphin too. The reason is because it out to be tricky to 
implement See https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158090. I tried last year 
but ran into a bunch of issues that I wasn't a good enough programmer to 
resolve.
  
  
  Awesome, just wondering. Don't mean to derail the conversation. Food for 
thought!

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D12077#249446 , @abetts wrote:
  
  > Somewhat related, why does the Size header have a number of items listed 
and not the size in bytes for all the items inside the folder?
  >
  > size
  >
  > 0 items
  >  2 items
  >
  > Shouldn't it be:
  >
  > size
  >  1 kb
  >  3 Mb
  >
  > ??
  
  
  It's like that in Dolphin too. The reason is because it out to be tricky to 
implement See https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=158090. I tried last year 
but ran into a bunch of issues that I wasn't a good enough programmer to 
resolve.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Andres Betts]

abetts added a comment.


  Somewhat related, why does the Size header have a number of items listed and 
not the size in bytes for all the items inside the folder?
  
  size
  
  0 items
  2 items
  
  Shouldn't it be:
  
  size
  1 kb
  3 Mb
  
  ??

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham closed this revision.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  Asking around on IRC and Telegram, I haven't found anyone who objects to 
this. Landing it.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Scott Harvey]

sharvey added a comment.


  +1 for making things easier and prettier.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a task: T8552: Polish Open/Save dialogs.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  Ping. Any objections from #frameworks 
 people?

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D12077#246406 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > Ah, small misunderstanding: I was mainly referring to not making Above 
filename (in conjunction with Short View) the overall default for the dialog. 
If Detailed (Tree) View was the default, changing the mode of Short View is 
probably fine.
  
  
  Great. I could get on board with making Detailed Tree View the default.
  
  In D12077#246406 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > We could also add a third button
  
  
  I wouldn't be against that in principle, but that's much more challenging 
since icons-on-top vs icons-on-the-side is currently a setting that applies to 
Short View, not two separate views the way they are in Dolphin. Separating 
those out would be a big headache due to the way the data is stored, and 
furthermore if we separated that out into Icons View and Details View, then 
there would be five modes, unless we also removed Detailed View and Tree 
View... All in all I think that would be desirable, but I'm not sure I'm ready 
for that quite yet.
  
  In D12077#246406 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > so it would work just like in Dolphin (needs removing Reload, but who is 
using that anyway, because it's not even present in Dolphin? See also D12215 
 ;).
  
  
  ...and D12218 . :)
  
  > Regarding your examples of primarily "visual" documents: I acknowledge 
that's one of the uses cases. However, please understand that here we are 
building a generic dialog. It also has to work for save (where previews do not 
make much sense, because you are mainly selecting a directory and then typing 
the filename manually), and for all other filetypes where you'd rather have 
long names than a big icon. The unifying theme for all items is the filename, 
not the preview! IOW, your use case is only a subset of all possible cases, but 
the default choice should fit all situations. Of course your work in making it 
easier to switch is important here, too…
  
  Yep, that was the point. :)

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx accepted this revision.
rkflx added a comment.


  Ah, small misunderstanding: I was mainly referring to not making Above 
filename (in conjunction with Short View) the overall default for the dialog. 
If Detailed (Tree) View was the default, changing the mode of Short View is 
probably fine. We could also add a third button, so it would work just like in 
Dolphin (needs removing Reload, but who is using that anyway, because it's not 
even present in Dolphin? See also D12215  
;).
  
  Regarding your examples of primarily "visual" documents: I acknowledge that's 
one of the uses cases. However, please understand that here we are building a 
generic dialog. It also has to work for save (where previews do not make much 
sense, because you are mainly selecting a directory and then typing the 
filename manually), and for all other filetypes where you'd rather have long 
names than a big icon. The unifying theme for all items is the filename, not 
the preview! IOW, your use case is only a subset of all possible cases, but the 
default choice should fit all situations. Of course your work in making it 
easier to switch is important here, too…
  
  ---
  
  In D12077#246071 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > Use Detailed Tree View and adjust separators and spacing
  
  
  LGTM

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the summary of this revision.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham edited the test plan for this revision.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  Yes, when the filename or metadata are the primary tools for differentiating 
files, having the items presented in a list format is much much better, as in 
your example of browsing for source files. But keep in mind that source files 
and other textual documents are only one use case! Large icons with previews 
are often much more helpful for predominately visual content, like images 
(think of Gwenview's open and save dialogs!), videos, presentations, epubs and 
comic book files, and many PDFs. This distinction is why I wanted to make it 
easier to change view modes within the file dialogs, and why I think each of 
the two view modes accessible from the toolbar should ideally support one of 
those use cases. If we don't change the icon positioning default, then we'll 
have two view modes that are optimized for textual content, and none for visual 
content.
  
  Thankfully, previews aren't shown for tiny icons, and each view mode 
remembers its own size settings, so it's feasible with very little work to have 
Detailed Tree View show 16px icons and a nice tight list, and icons-on-top 
Short View show 48px (or larger) icons with previews. With this, we would have 
two views, each optimized for one of the two primary content types, which seems 
humane and appropriate given the diversity of software out there.
  
  Of course this discussion is relevant to the //next// patch, not this one...

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 32113.
ngraham added a comment.


  Use Detailed Tree View and adjust separators and spacing

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham updated this revision to Diff 32112.
ngraham added a comment.
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.


  Rebase on current master

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  In D12077#245762 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > If we did this (after making icons-on-top mode the default for file pickers 
), then both Dolphin and the file 
pickers would have the same number of buttons, with each one display the same 
view and using a consistent icon.
  
  
  After running Short view with Above filename and icons set to 32px for a 
while, I made an interesting observation: I'm much slower with selecting files, 
and it feels much more tiring. For example, try to locate 
`ArcanistBranchWorkflow.php` as quickly as you can:
  
  F5807473: KIO-above.png 
  
  F5807475: KIO-next-to.png 
  
  Surprisingly I found Next to filename works much better. (I suppose Detailed 
Tree View shares the same properties.)
  
  Thinking about this, there might be reasons:
  
  - For Open File, it is important to choose a file, so having files with an 
identical prefix aligned to each other is much more readable.
  - For #Dolphin , larger click 
targets and the ability to show previews are more important for the task of 
file management, which often involves multiple files (and not just one file 
like in the opening case).
  
  Therefore I'd tend to not recommend switching defaults to Above filename, 
having different modes in the file picker and in Dolphin is fine!

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  In D12077#245777 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > The third step would be to look at Dolphin (where I think you should do a 
poll to gauge usage of what you describe as the "horrible" mode, an assessment 
which I'd agree with but maybe other don't… Also currently there is not much 
need in Dolphin to reduce the number of view mode icons in the toolbar, there 
is still enough space).
  
  
  Looked more into this, I don't think the third mode should be removed, and I 
don't think it's too bad to have 3 modes in Dolphin and 2 modes in the file 
dialog (the window sizes is different after all). Reason: In Dolphin all 3 
modes always are in a group: In the menu, and most importantly in the config 
dialog. This group of three modes should also be reflected in the toolbar, 
otherwise it could cause confusion.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  Let's do one step at a time ;) First, decide which mode we want to show. Then 
think about the icon, i.e. either switch icons or redo the icon itself. (Basing 
the mode on the icon instead of on the behaviour is //very questionable//, I'm 
surprised you even bring this up…) The third step would be to look at Dolphin 
(where I think you should do a poll to gauge usage of what you describe as the 
"horrible" mode, an assessment which I'd agree with but maybe other don't…).
  
  TBH, I don't think users look too much at what the icon depicts. They just 
recognize them as those square thingies from Dolphin and remember that clicking 
on them switches view modes. They try out which one they like best, and then 
choose their preference. This is also what I learned in other places: The 
relative positioning of the icon is much more important than what's on the icon 
itself. Thus I think you worry too much about the icon.
  
  I would simply go for Detailed Tree View with the existing icon. One quick 
idea to tweak the icon to become more list-style would be to fill out the 
square on the top right, emphasizing the vertical axis. What do you think?

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  One reason why I used Detailed Vew instead of Detailed Tree View was honestly 
because I think it has a better icon. Detailed Tree View's "squares connected 
with lines" iconography //tolerably// communicates "tree-style view" but not 
"vertical list of items" and "columns of additional information". The icon for 
"Details" view IMHO  communicates both of these things much better, and those 
seem like more important parts of the functionality to signal than that fact 
that it's a tree-style view.
  
  Dolphin has the same issue, but confusingly uses Detailed View's icon for 
that horrible side-scrolling Windows-style columnar list view (AKA Compact View 
Mode). I wonder how many people would cry bloody murder if we changed Dolphin 
to use the Detailed Vew icon for its own Detailed View Mode, and then removed 
the icon for Compact View Mode from the toolbar by default and found it a 
better icon (it would still be available from the View menu of course).
  
  If we did this (after making icons-on-top mode the default for file pickers 
), then both Dolphin and the file 
pickers would have the same number of buttons, with each one display the same 
view and using a consistent icon.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham planned changes to this revision.
ngraham added a comment.


  In D12077#245758 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > I know I already accepted this, but:
  >
  > > moves the preview button over to the right so it doesn't compete with the 
new view mode and sorting buttons.
  >
  > While you now could remove "sorting" from the summary, I wonder whether it 
would make sense to revisit moving Preview. How about this:
  >
  > F5806931: kio-preview.png 
  >
  > After looking at your screenshot again, I'm not too fond of how Preview and 
Zoom Out relate to each other…
  >
  > One more thing which came to mind after revisiting the dialog: Why not use 
Detailed Tree View instead? This way the buttons would act as a kind of 
simple/advanced switcher. Also, this is what Dolphin does, too!
  
  
  Good points!

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  I know I already accepted this, but:
  
  > moves the preview button over to the right so it doesn't compete with the 
new view mode and sorting buttons.
  
  While you now could remove "sorting" from the summary, I wonder whether it 
would make sense to revisit moving Preview. How about this:
  
  F5806931: kio-preview.png 
  
  After looking at your screenshot again, I'm not too fond of how Preview and 
Zoom Out relate to each other…
  
  One more thing which came to mind after revisiting the dialog: Why not use 
Detailed Tree View instead? This way the buttons would act as a kind of 
simple/advanced switcher. Also, this is what Dolphin does, too!

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Andres Betts]

abetts accepted this revision.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a reviewer: VDG.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  In D12077#244368 , @ngraham wrote:
  
  > I was also planning to change the default for Short View to put the icons 
on top rather than on the side, to match Dolphin's default behavior. That's 
gated behind a couple of bugs with that view mode that I have to fix first 
though.
  
  
  Might be difficult, because in order to fully display most filenames, you'd 
need to make the icon size large enough, but then you'd only be able to display 
relatively few items. The file dialog is different to Dolphin in the sense that 
the space the viewport can occupy is quite small, so a different view mode is 
not too bad. I'm curious though if you have a magic patch in mind which creates 
space out of nothing ;)
  
  > Details View as the general default also makes sense for me once D11993 
 lands (without that, it's often almost 
unusable).
  
  Something to keep in mind: Both GTK and Windows also default to Details View.
  
  ---
  
  More ideas to fit more buttons:
  
  - Consolidate the view mode buttons into a single button with a radio button 
pop-up menu (just like in Windows).
  - Move the reload button to the URL navigator.
  - Display the reload button only for remote folders (where KDirWatch cannot 
work).

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  In D12077#244340 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > Okay, did look at the code ;) But please get at least one extra approval 
from someone else…
  
  
  Yep, was planning on it.
  
  In D12077#244339 , @rkflx wrote:
  
  > Hm, seems like the width of the places panel is set in `kdeglobals` (and 
too small, BTW)
  
  
  Expect another patch to improve this  at some point soon. :)
  
  > As for Sorting: If a user does not click on the Configure button which then 
has "Sorting" in plain sight, why would he click on a Sorting icon? The problem 
is not that sorting is too hidden, but that users don't get the idea to 
actually click on any button in the toolbar. Moving sorting does not help at 
all with that.
  
  Well a button with text on a toolbar is more visible than a sub-menu hidden 
behind a menu hidden behind a text-less button in the corner that currently has 
an inappropriate icon. But this is a more general problem with KDE-style 
ToolButtons that...
  
  - Don't visibly look like buttons until you hover over them
  - Don't have text, just an icon
  - Use a small abstract monochrome line-art icon
  
  These buttons don't really communicate "Click me, I'm a button!" like they 
should. I plan to start a VDG conversation on the subject eventually.
  
  > For the view modes it's different, because users recognize the icon from 
Dolphin. I'd just add the view modes, and IMO sorting in the Detailed View is a 
good enough compromise. We could think about making this mode the default, 
because the horizontal scrolling of Short View is kinda difficult to use anyway.
  
  Agreed. I was also planning to change the default for Short View to put the 
icons on top rather than on the side, to match Dolphin's default behavior. 
That's gated behind a couple of bugs with that view mode that I have to fix 
first though. Details View as the general default also makes sense for me once 
D11993  lands (without that, it's often 
almost unusable).

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx accepted this revision.
rkflx added a comment.
This revision is now accepted and ready to land.


  Okay, did look at the code ;) But please get at least one extra approval from 
someone else…

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Henrik Fehlauer]

rkflx added a comment.


  Hm, seems like the width of the places panel is set in `kdeglobals` (and too 
small, BTW). After resetting this, without Sorting it's a +1 from my side (did 
not look at the code, though).
  
  ---
  
  As for Sorting: If a user does not click on the Configure button which then 
has "Sorting" in plain sight, why would he click on a Sorting icon? The problem 
is not that sorting is too hidden, but that users don't get the idea to 
actually click on any button in the toolbar. Moving sorting does not help at 
all with that.
  
  For the view modes it's different, because users recognize the icon from 
Dolphin. I'd just add the view modes, and IMO sorting in the Detailed View is a 
good enough compromise. We could think about making this mode the default, 
because the horizontal scrolling of Short View is kinda difficult to use anyway.

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham added a comment.


  How's this? F5804311: Default appearance.png 

  
  Better now? That's with a new fresh user account, so I think we can be sure 
it's using the default settings. :)

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D12077: Show view mode buttons in the open/save dialog's toolbar

[Nathaniel Graham]

ngraham retitled this revision from "Show view mode buttons and a sort menu in 
the open/save dialog's toolbar" to "Show view mode buttons in the open/save 
dialog's toolbar".
ngraham edited the summary of this revision.
ngraham edited the test plan for this revision.

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