[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Colin J Thomson]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Colin J Thomson  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|colin.thom...@g6avk.co.uk   |

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Christophe Giboudeaux]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #28 from Christophe Giboudeaux  ---
(In reply to Erik Quaeghebeur from comment #27)

> Can you fill in the ‘Version fixed in’ field so that we know when it'll be
> available to us on distribution update schedules?

Done, the plugin is in the kdepim-addons repository.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Christophe Giboudeaux]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Christophe Giboudeaux  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Version Fixed In||18.04.0

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Erik Quaeghebeur]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #27 from Erik Quaeghebeur  ---
(In reply to Christophe Giboudeaux from comment #26)
> Closing, the option is available in the "Message" menu after enabling the
> "Expert" plugin.
Can you fill in the ‘Version fixed in’ field so that we know when it'll be
available to us on distribution update schedules?

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Christophe Giboudeaux]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Christophe Giboudeaux  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #26 from Christophe Giboudeaux  ---
Closing, the option is available in the "Message" menu after enabling the
"Expert" plugin.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Mateusz Kowalewski]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Mateusz Kowalewski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||mateusz.f.kowalewski@gmail.
   ||com

--- Comment #25 from Mateusz Kowalewski  ---
(In reply to Laurent Montel from comment #9)
> (In reply to Kamil Dudka from comment #8)
> > Laurent, could you please stop removing or hiding kmail's features which you
> > think are not useful or important?
> > 
> > Those features were originally implemented for a reason and kmail's users
> > have been successfully using them for quite some time.  If you keep the
> > current pace of downgrading user experience with each subsequent release of
> > kmail, you are going loose existing users of kmail for no real benefit.
> > 
> > You should really focus on fixing existing bugs instead of removing existing
> > stable features that nobody complains about.
> 
> Just a question:
> Are you the kmail maintainer ?
> no I don't think.
> I am.
> 
> So if I think that it's better to reduce menu or hide not useful feature for
> enduser it's my choice.
> 
> You work on redhat so make your work as packager and stop to cry.
> 
> Thanks.

Dear maintainer,

There is another problem with your "choice" here: The documentation did not
reflect this change! That's an absolute no go!

I'm currently looking for some other bug in Kmail/Akonadi and reading the
mailing-list archives. I discovered this bug report by chance now.

Some time ago I (as an end-user) needed to look up the message structure of one
mail. I was very upset as I saw the menu entry I knew was there for years was
gone. I tired to "google" for this issue but did not find this bug report then.
I also did not find any information about a removal of this feature. The
documentation says it is still in the menu! I thought it is a very strange bug.
I even started to look for the relevant code in Kmail (but did not push this
endeavor any further than out of lack of time).

In the end I exported the raw mail an used some tools on it to extract the part
of the mail I was interested in. Looking into this issue and coming up with a
workaround was a waste of several hours!

"Hiding" or removing features "for power users" is a think I would expect form
the Gnome people. But never ever from a KDE app! Please don't do something like
that again!

There are some usability standards under KDE now for years: Everything you can
find in the GUI is also available as a toolbar. But not the other way around!

Till said: "'toolbar' \subseteq 'menu' is a typical pattern". I think it's not
only a "typical pattern" it's how things work all over KDE apps since most
likely pre V1.0 versions. (Maybe I don't recall correctly the version but it
works like that since "ever")! It's not anything you could make a "choice"
about.

You just wasted the time of several people by making a "choice" like that. But
there was no gain whatsoever in doing so! KDE isn't for people who like
"hidden" or striped down features.

Thank you for being now aware that with "choices" like that you will annoy a
lot of long time KDE users.


Best regards,
Mateusz

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Ralph Moenchmeyer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #24 from Ralph Moenchmeyer  ---
The reason why I commented at all (see comment 23) was that my wife got a
spam/malware mail which showed no contents in the "new" Kmail. I said : Look at
the mail's structure. She said: hey, there is no option for this any longer. 

The mail had an HTML part, clearly shown in its structure view => Which we
could have a look at only after we found out that the option really had
disappeared from the menu structure and was purposefully hidden in the
configuration options for the task bar.   

A "V" for the code of the mail then revealed the shit in it.

So, for reacting properly to some dubious mails it is helpful to have a display
of their structure - and an option for setting this display to "on"
permanently.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Ralph Moenchmeyer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Ralph Moenchmeyer  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||r...@anracon.de

--- Comment #23 from Ralph Moenchmeyer  ---
Interesting discussion and opinion exchange. So, I dare to add a comment from
an experienced end user's perspective. 

I have used KDE/Kmail for over 12 years now. I have used it as a part of my
daily professional Linux/KDE/Kontact working environment - with accounts on
many different Mail- and groupware servers. So, as an end user have I followed
all the ups and downs of this application. Parts of my family use it, too. And
to make it clear from the beginning: I do respect respect the developers'
effort. Very much so. I am 60 years old and I have worked in IT for over 30
years - as a developer, as an application designer, as project leader, as a
consultant. In agile environments - and with maintainers.   

As an interested end user with respect to Kmail I can only express my deepest
dislike of attitudes as:  

"So if I think that it's better to reduce menu or hide not useful feature for
enduser it's my choice." 

No, dear maintainer, it is NOT! A maintainer has to work in the interest of
both the developers AND the end users. 

Deciding what is useful for an end user or not is, however, a difficult process
- which, of course, should involve the end user. Certainly, it is not something
which can be decided upon in a nice developer chat, only. I do not assume that
this was the case here, but I stress this point to make clear that it is not
just simply "your" choice. 

Changing or even removing elementary features should be the result of a careful
analysis. It would have been helpful to see how the maintainer came to his
conclusions and on what basis the end users opinion was taken into account.   

I, myself, have worked in the interest of end users in some SW projects. And
you know what? The most annoying thing for an end user is: 

Changes and changes and changes with an unclear or dubious motivation - and
without even a minimum end user survey. (In the case of Kmail besides technical
problems and not properly working features - as the search for mails with
AND/OR conditions in Kmail for years.)

But even more annoying is the removal of features. And I may tell you - even if
some developers and maintainers may not believe it: To have a look at the
structure of an email has become something elementary for security aware end
users.

An important thing for the success of an application is a balance of keeping up
things users got used to and improvements/extensions. One key experience in
application design is: This balance between conservative maintenance and
innovation is a delicate one for customers. And one rule, I painfully had to
learn myself, is: You do not simply remove options users were used to for years
without proper replacement!

In addition: CLEANING UP MENUS may be a great thing to do if it follows a
comprehensible logic. REMOVING FEATURES without a replacement certainly IS NOT!
You should note that you are talking about two very different things. 

As an end user I vote for a kind of "advanced options" menu. 

That is a place where most users would look for a replacement of options that
suddenly have disappeared. 

A plugin, instead, makes life for end users more complicated. You have to know
about plugins and their handling. You have to activate them and maybe configure
them. In my opinion not convincing for elementary options as displaying the
mail structure.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Don Curtis]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #22 from Don Curtis  ---
General comments:

1. AFAICS, KMail seems to be one of the few e-Mail clients which offers an
indication of the e-Mail message structure and the size of the message body and
the size each attachment.

2. Yes, it is a "nice to have" feature especially, if you're sending e-Mails
with potentially large attachments.

3. I suspect that, most human beings haven't the faintest idea as to what the
structure of an e-Mail is; which doesn't mean that, the structure of an e-Mail
doesn't play a role when considering the consequences of sending e-Mails with a
total size of Megabytes or even Gigabytes.

   Meaning that, if you have colleagues who persist in sending large items as
e-Mail attachments (MS Office documents come to mind here -- real-life
experience working in large concerns … ) the ability to show them the
consequences of their actions and, possibly, retrain them, is much easier if
the e-Mail structure can be displayed.

   Please note that, the above comment doesn't work for the case of managers --
they tend to be extremely resistant to "on the job" schooling … ;-)

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Don Curtis]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Don Curtis  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||bugrprt21...@online.de

--- Comment #21 from Don Curtis  ---
(In reply to Till Schäfer from comment #15)
> There is one smaller aspect I would like to discuss before closing this bug: 
> When the plugin is disabled, it still keeps the shortcut and menu option for
> "show message structure" accessible. Thus, it still violates the expectation
> "toolbar" \subseteq "menu". I propose to remove at least the toolbar entry
> as well, when the expert plugin is disabled. Any objections?

>From my point of view, the proposal to remove the toolbar entry if the Expert
plugin is disabled is OK.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[bugzilla_noreply]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

kram...@web.de changed:

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 CC||kram...@web.de

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Maf . King]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Maf. King  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||m...@chilwell.net

--- Comment #20 from Maf. King  ---
+1 to the comments above.  as an end user I use this view option daily.  I
don't want to prefer HTML mail, but when I get a mail that doesn't display as
expected, it is useful to know there is a HTML part to try, if I want to.

Please don't remove it - a configure menu -> appearance -> layout option seems
to me to be a good place for it to go.  It is just as valid as a user pref as
e.g. the long/short folder view, IMHO.

Kontact 5.8.1 / KF 5.46 / openSuSE 42.3 & update repos.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Vincent]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Vincent  changed:

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 CC||vincent.dema+kde_bug@gmail.
   ||com

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Erik Quaeghebeur]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Erik Quaeghebeur  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||k...@equaeghe.nospammail.net

--- Comment #19 from Erik Quaeghebeur  ---
(In reply to stefanprobst from comment #17)
> Why not simply hide features that are considered advanced or expert in a
> *submenu* called 'Advanced options'. That's what I would expect.
I agree. All features, including ones considered advanced should be
discoverable through the interface. It is much easier to peruse the menu tree
than to go over the shortcut targets or possible toolbar actions.

In any case, I am glad this feature is still  there. I had the message
structure open at all times and found it very convenient.

A configuration option or plugin that enables/disables the ‘advanced menu
items’ is fine, as long as that option or plugin is discoverable.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[bugzilla_noreply]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

aux...@gmail.com changed:

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Cuchac]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Cuchac  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||cuc...@email.cz

--- Comment #18 from Cuchac  ---
(In reply to stefanprobst from comment #17)
> Why not simply hide features that are considered advanced or expert in a
> *submenu* called 'Advanced options'. That's what I would expect.

This is great solution! I was looking desperately in all menus when this
"advanced user" option disappeared. I thought it got removed. 

How many Kmail features are hidden in the toolbar where no one knows about it?

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[bugzilla_noreply]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

stefanpro...@kolabnow.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||stefanpro...@kolabnow.com

--- Comment #17 from stefanpro...@kolabnow.com ---
Why not simply hide features that are considered advanced or expert in a
*submenu* called 'Advanced options'. That's what I would expect.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Anguo]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #16 from Anguo  ---
I object. I am tired of the culture that pervades the whole KDE ecosystem
(plasma, konqueror, kwin, kmail, kdm, kuser, etc. etc.) in which regressions
are considered acceptable. 

Software is supposed to become more and more user-friendly and feature-rich
over time, not the other way around. 

I have been a faithful KDE user for 17 years, but I have fewer and fewer
reasons to stick with it, since many of the features that made me chose it over
other Desktop Environments are now removed or broken. 

The whole kmail2/akonadi is a disaster and I long for kmail1.

The regression discussed in this issue is another sad step in the same
direction. 

I understand that developers freely provide their time and expertise for the
community, and that their time is limited so that not all bugs can be fixed nor
all feature request be implemented. But then why on earth should developers
waste their time removing features that were working perfectly?? What so much
time and effort wasted on the whole akodani framework which, as far as I am
concerned, only brought headaches, weird bugs that at times rendered kmail
almost completely unusable, without any apparent benefit in terms of features
or usability??

For me, the only acceptable fix to this issue is to revert the commit
referenced above.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Till Schäfer]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #15 from Till Schäfer  ---
I have observed, that there is an "expert plugin" for KMail 5.8.0. This plugin
re-enables the desired menu option to show the message list structure. I think
this is a reasonable solution and for my use case the issue is fixed. 

There is one smaller aspect I would like to discuss before closing this bug: 
When the plugin is disabled, it still keeps the shortcut and menu option for
"show message structure" accessible. Thus, it still violates the expectation
"toolbar" \subseteq "menu". I propose to remove at least the toolbar entry as
well, when the expert plugin is disabled. Any objections?

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Fabian Vogt]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Fabian Vogt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||fab...@ritter-vogt.de

--- Comment #14 from Fabian Vogt  ---
(I'll just ignore the last few comments...)

I agree with Daniel here. I used the structure view option quite extensively
and thought it was removed completely. I'm happy that it's not the case, but it
can't just be removed from the menu. The menu needs to be complete, it's the
single purpose a menu has.

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Vojtěch Zeisek]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Vojtěch Zeisek  changed:

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 CC||vojtech.zei...@opensuse.org

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Laurent Montel]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

--- Comment #13 from Laurent Montel  ---
*** Bug 393016 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Anguo]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Anguo  changed:

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 CC||kde_b...@overshoot.tv

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[kmail2] [Bug 387931] KMail 5.7.0 is missing the show message structure option

[Kamil Dudka]

https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=387931

Kamil Dudka  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|KMail 5.7.0 is missing the  |KMail 5.7.0 is missing the
   |message structure option|show message structure
   ||option

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