Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Cirilo Bernardo]

In this case the standards document IPC2581 is freely available. Some
large corporations in the EU use it but otherwise adoption is a bit
slow (but hey, it took IPv6 almost 20 years to get anywhere). Years
ago I was hoping to find time to implement it so that anyone required
to use it for work will have it available, but I just never had the
time.

Cirilo

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 4:50 PM, Kevin Cozens  wrote:
> On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
>>
>> Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
>
> [snip]
>>
>>
>> http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
>
>
> I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't have a
> lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see is what I
> consider one of those typical industry things where you need to join the
> organization in order to gain access to the information. I suspect that to
> get a copy of the actual standard you will have to give them some money at
> some point.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
> | powerful!"
> #include  | --Chris Hardwick
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 2/21/2018 8:43 PM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Wayne Stambaugh  > wrote:
> 
> I'm not opposed to KiCad taking part in this it's just a simple matter
> of lack of time.  If someone else is interested in representing KiCad at
> these meetings, I would not be opposed to that it's just not going to be
> me.  I am completely out of free time to do any more than my current
> work load.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
> 
> Well I'm retired and have plenty of time on my hands so I will join as
> an individual and keep this group up
> to date with what you would have to do if you wanted to advertise
> compliance. I will not be an "official" representative
> for Kicad and will not make any claims that would commit this group to
> do anything  to comply with the standard. You
> will need to make that decision for your self
> 
> I have also been working with the IEEE-1685 IP-Xact folks and will keep
> you informed on how that standard can help you.
> 
> 
> 
> John Eaton
> 
> 

John,

I appreciate the the offer.  If there is any way I can help, I will do
my best.

Thanks,

Wayne

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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Ouabache Designworks]

On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Wayne Stambaugh 
wrote:

> I'm not opposed to KiCad taking part in this it's just a simple matter
> of lack of time.  If someone else is interested in representing KiCad at
> these meetings, I would not be opposed to that it's just not going to be
> me.  I am completely out of free time to do any more than my current
> work load.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Wayne
>
>

Well I'm retired and have plenty of time on my hands so I will join as an
individual and keep this group up
to date with what you would have to do if you wanted to advertise
compliance. I will not be an "official" representative
for Kicad and will not make any claims that would commit this group to do
anything  to comply with the standard. You
will need to make that decision for your self

I have also been working with the IEEE-1685 IP-Xact folks and will keep you
informed on how that standard can help you.



John Eaton
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Wayne Stambaugh]

I'm not opposed to KiCad taking part in this it's just a simple matter
of lack of time.  If someone else is interested in representing KiCad at
these meetings, I would not be opposed to that it's just not going to be
me.  I am completely out of free time to do any more than my current
work load.

Cheers,

Wayne

On 02/21/2018 12:44 PM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
> This might be a good time to discuss industry standards and how they are
> currently undergoing a massive change that the Kicad team could help  with.
> 
> 
> 
> Standards have in the past been created by large formal organizations
> like the IEEE for the entire industry.They were written in a very strict
> and formal language
> and had to be complete and unambiguous. They were written by
> professionals who did that for a living.
> 
> If there was a error or omission in a standard then correcting it,
> getting all the reviews and approvals, re-releasing a revised standard,
> changing all the EDA tools
> using it and getting the end user to change all of their accumulated IP
> could easily take 10 years.
> 
> The verilog standard was revised in 1995 to allow for port creation in
> one line instead of two. It was 2005 before the design team that I was
> on allowed us to use
>  the new standard in our coding. It took us that long  to prove that all
> of our tools were correct and we could trust our tool flow with
> production code.
> 
> 
> I'm sorry IEEE but I have a problem and I need a a working solution by
> Friday. You are fired. You can no longer control the standards that I use.
> 
> This has already happened. Nobody goes to the verilog standard for
> answers about the language. The official solution is to write a test
> case and run it under verilogXL
>  to see what it does. EDA  tool smiths are no longer implementing
> standards, they are creating them. Gerber created the PCB standard.
> Kicad 5 will create its own standard
> and all the standard committee can do is to document it.
> 
> 
> We need to work with these groups not to ask them what we should support
> but to tell them what we are doing and let them follow us. We can also
> pick up some good ideas as
> to what other groups are doing.
> 
> We don't argue in a committee but rather release everything and let the
> market decide. Open source can win in that arena. If we get it wrong
> then theres always the next revision.
> 
> 
> So what can the Kicad team do? If any new release breaks designs created
> under the old release then provide tools and instructions for converting
> the end users IP to run under the new release.
>  Otherwise its a huge mess. Icarus verilog did a new release for version
> 10 that fixed an "off-by-one" error in its LOG function. Now its a
> complete mess because old code has to be rewritten before
>  it can be used with any new code. When you make a change you must also
> come up with a plan for all the old IP. Make it easy for the end user to
> use your tool.
> 
> 
> 
> John Eaton
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Ouabache Designworks]

This might be a good time to discuss industry standards and how they are
currently undergoing a massive change that the Kicad team could help  with.



Standards have in the past been created by large formal organizations like
the IEEE for the entire industry.They were written in a very strict and
formal language
and had to be complete and unambiguous. They were written by professionals
who did that for a living.

If there was a error or omission in a standard then correcting it, getting
all the reviews and approvals, re-releasing a revised standard, changing
all the EDA tools
using it and getting the end user to change all of their accumulated IP
could easily take 10 years.

The verilog standard was revised in 1995 to allow for port creation in one
line instead of two. It was 2005 before the design team that I was on
allowed us to use
 the new standard in our coding. It took us that long  to prove that all of
our tools were correct and we could trust our tool flow with production
code.


I'm sorry IEEE but I have a problem and I need a a working solution by
Friday. You are fired. You can no longer control the standards that I use.

This has already happened. Nobody goes to the verilog standard for answers
about the language. The official solution is to write a test case and run
it under verilogXL
 to see what it does. EDA  tool smiths are no longer implementing
standards, they are creating them. Gerber created the PCB standard. Kicad 5
will create its own standard
and all the standard committee can do is to document it.


We need to work with these groups not to ask them what we should support
but to tell them what we are doing and let them follow us. We can also pick
up some good ideas as
to what other groups are doing.

We don't argue in a committee but rather release everything and let the
market decide. Open source can win in that arena. If we get it wrong then
theres always the next revision.


So what can the Kicad team do? If any new release breaks designs created
under the old release then provide tools and instructions for converting
the end users IP to run under the new release.
 Otherwise its a huge mess. Icarus verilog did a new release for version 10
that fixed an "off-by-one" error in its LOG function. Now its a complete
mess because old code has to be rewritten before
 it can be used with any new code. When you make a change you must also
come up with a plan for all the old IP. Make it easy for the end user to
use your tool.



John Eaton
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Christian Gagneraud]

On 21 February 2018 at 05:19, Ouabache Designworks  wrote:
>
> Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
>
> Found this on semiwiki.com
>
>
> Hemant enthusiastically replied, “We encourage anyone interested in
> improving board design processes to join the consortium – there is no fee,
> and no contracts. There are both corporate and associate levels of
> membership, based upon the level of participation of interest. Our web site
> provides lots of information, including the current approved standard and
> the discussion underway for new enhancements in the next revision.”
>
> http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
>
> “Also, at the upcoming IPC APEX EXPO 2018 conference, designers, EDA
> companies, and manufacturing and assembly houses will be sharing a wealth of
> information on IPC-2581.”
>
> http://www.ipcapexexpo.org/html/default.htm
>
> IPC-2581 is clearly not “just another standard”, in reference to Professor
> Tanenbaum’s quote. This activity has already improved processes and
> procedures for PCB design data exchange and release, saving money. Its
> adoption will undoubtedly (and rapidly) become more pervasive.

Hi there,

I have been exploring gerber and IPC-2581, I have some prototype code
written in Qt/C++, see
https://gitlab.com/chgans/le-ipc2581-viewer

Most of the code is generated, i've rewritten their XML schema into a
mard-down like syntax, which is them parsed by a python script to
generate all the data structure and the XML parsing, the rest of the
code is just visualisation

The standard is sort of open, I was able to write this viewer based on
publicly available document and sample files, see:
- https://gitlab.com/chgans/le-ipc2581-viewer/tree/master/docs
- https://gitlab.com/chgans/le-ipc2581-viewer/tree/master/testcases.

It might take a while for this standard to be adopted, but you have to
realise that this standard offer way more than gerber, it's been
designed for improving the whole design to manufacturing chain.
Just an example, it has built-in support for stack-up specifications,
covering both physical and electrical constraints, ...

Major EDA vendors have support for exporting in this format (according
to IPC website).
Some stack-up specialised (proprietary) software support this format
as an input and output.

It should not be difficult to create an exporter for KiCAD, reading,
interpreting and rendering this files is another story.

Chris

>
>
>
> John Eaton
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Mark Roszko]

Standardizing IPC-2581 is one thing. But I'm going to be realistic and say
it'll take another decade before fabs actually upgrade to software
supporting it if they even care.

Many write custom software or scripts for their workflow as they hire a guy
to do it part time. Other just use the cheapest commercial stuff that they
can find that works with their equipment. Or they just use whatever came
with their machines. But it's not exactly a high margin business where
anyone would jump all over buying new software and retesting it for their
machines once they got something that works when they can just force the
engineer to submit the job in one of the numerous other formats. Unless
they are a big company offering a huge pcb job contract, then the fab will
probably rush to update heh.


I would say its a no rush item to implement while they define the standard.
The whole thing is going to be rigged by the commercial EDA vendors pushing
all the pet ideas they have anyway.
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Ouabache Designworks]

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Jeff Young  wrote:

> > Maybe we should submit the kicad board file for acceptance as the
> standard. ;)
>
> It’s actually not a bad idea.  My board house takes Gerbers or Kicad, and
> nothing else.
>
> Plus, it’s open source, which standards bodies like.  (But even commercial
> stuff *can* become a standard — I was part of the team that submitted PDF
> to ISO.)
>
> Cheers,
> Jeff.
>
>
I have sat through some of these standards committee meetings and a lot of
it is politics. Somebody from a big company has their pet idea that they
can
force it through even if its a lousy idea. A well run opensource
development could probably do a better job.




John Eaton
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Wayne Stambaugh]

On 02/20/2018 07:20 PM, Jeff Young wrote:
 > Maybe we should submit the kicad board file for acceptance as the 
standard. ;)


It’s actually not a bad idea.  My board house takes Gerbers or Kicad, 
and nothing else.


Plus, it’s open source, which standards bodies like.  (But even 
commercial stuff /can/ become a standard — I was part of the team that 
submitted PDF to ISO.)


As much as this would amuse me, I don't think the kicad board format has 
all the information that the big EDA players would consider necessary. 
Those features are coming but it will take time.  The fact that board 
houses are using the kicad board file directly is a testament to how 
easy it is to use and I consider that a feather in KiCad's cap.




Cheers,
Jeff.


On 20 Feb 2018, at 23:49, Wayne Stambaugh > wrote:


Standards always seem like a good idea on the surface but they don't 
seem to work as well in practice.  On thing that is certain, gerber is 
still the defacto standard for having boards manufactured.  Lover or 
hate em, they are not going anywhere any time soon.  Of the few board 
houses that I use, none of the them take IPC-2581 so I'm not sure 
spending valuable developer resources on something that might not even 
come to fruition even makes sense.  I would rather the limited 
resources we have stay focused on the features in the next version 
road map.  What is interesting, I know of more board houses that 
directly take kicad board files than IPC-2581 to produce boards. 
 Maybe we should submit the kicad board file for acceptance as the 
standard. ;)


As for someone attending the meetings, I don't think anyone in their 
right mind would want me to sit in on those meetings.  I know several 
engineers who have sat on other standards boards and I know I would 
not be a good fit.  Politics is not my forte.  Maybe someone else with 
a bit more political skill than I have can represent KiCad.


On 02/20/2018 12:37 PM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
Looks like they have corporate and individual memberships. Individual 
is free and probably has no vote. Corp probably costs $$ but gives 
you a ballot.
It would be nice if Kicad had an official rep that could attend 
meetings, propose rules and vote. At least that way we would know 
where we differed from

the standard and could move to support it.
John Eaton
On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Cozens  > wrote:

   On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
   Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
   [snip]
http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
   
   I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't
   have a lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see
   is what I consider one of those typical industry things where you
   need to join the organization in order to gain access to the
   information. I suspect that to get a copy of the actual standard you
   will have to give them some money at some point.
   -- Cheers!
   Kevin.
http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that
   distract
   Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's
   why we're
                                | powerful!"
   #include  |             --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Jeff Young]

> Maybe we should submit the kicad board file for acceptance as the standard. ;)

It’s actually not a bad idea.  My board house takes Gerbers or Kicad, and 
nothing else.

Plus, it’s open source, which standards bodies like.  (But even commercial 
stuff can become a standard — I was part of the team that submitted PDF to ISO.)

Cheers,
Jeff.


> On 20 Feb 2018, at 23:49, Wayne Stambaugh  wrote:
> 
> Standards always seem like a good idea on the surface but they don't seem to 
> work as well in practice.  On thing that is certain, gerber is still the 
> defacto standard for having boards manufactured.  Lover or hate em, they are 
> not going anywhere any time soon.  Of the few board houses that I use, none 
> of the them take IPC-2581 so I'm not sure spending valuable developer 
> resources on something that might not even come to fruition even makes sense. 
>  I would rather the limited resources we have stay focused on the features in 
> the next version road map.  What is interesting, I know of more board houses 
> that directly take kicad board files than IPC-2581 to produce boards.  Maybe 
> we should submit the kicad board file for acceptance as the standard. ;)
> 
> As for someone attending the meetings, I don't think anyone in their right 
> mind would want me to sit in on those meetings.  I know several engineers who 
> have sat on other standards boards and I know I would not be a good fit.  
> Politics is not my forte.  Maybe someone else with a bit more political skill 
> than I have can represent KiCad.
> 
> On 02/20/2018 12:37 PM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
>> Looks like they have corporate and individual memberships. Individual is 
>> free and probably has no vote. Corp probably costs $$ but gives you a ballot.
>> It would be nice if Kicad had an official rep that could attend meetings, 
>> propose rules and vote. At least that way we would know where we differed 
>> from
>> the standard and could move to support it.
>> John Eaton
>> On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Cozens > > wrote:
>>On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
>>Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
>>[snip]
>>http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
>>
>>I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't
>>have a lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see
>>is what I consider one of those typical industry things where you
>>need to join the organization in order to gain access to the
>>information. I suspect that to get a copy of the actual standard you
>>will have to give them some money at some point.
>>-- Cheers!
>>Kevin.
>>http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that
>>distract
>>Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's
>>why we're
>> | powerful!"
>>#include  | --Chris Hardwick
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Standards always seem like a good idea on the surface but they don't 
seem to work as well in practice.  On thing that is certain, gerber is 
still the defacto standard for having boards manufactured.  Lover or 
hate em, they are not going anywhere any time soon.  Of the few board 
houses that I use, none of the them take IPC-2581 so I'm not sure 
spending valuable developer resources on something that might not even 
come to fruition even makes sense.  I would rather the limited resources 
we have stay focused on the features in the next version road map.  What 
is interesting, I know of more board houses that directly take kicad 
board files than IPC-2581 to produce boards.  Maybe we should submit the 
kicad board file for acceptance as the standard. ;)


As for someone attending the meetings, I don't think anyone in their 
right mind would want me to sit in on those meetings.  I know several 
engineers who have sat on other standards boards and I know I would not 
be a good fit.  Politics is not my forte.  Maybe someone else with a bit 
more political skill than I have can represent KiCad.


On 02/20/2018 12:37 PM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
Looks like they have corporate and individual memberships. Individual is 
free and probably has no vote. Corp probably costs $$ but gives you a 
ballot.


It would be nice if Kicad had an official rep that could attend 
meetings, propose rules and vote. At least that way we would know where 
we differed from

the standard and could move to support it.

John Eaton

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Cozens > wrote:


On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:

Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?

[snip]


http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/



I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't
have a lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see
is what I consider one of those typical industry things where you
need to join the organization in order to gain access to the
information. I suspect that to get a copy of the actual standard you
will have to give them some money at some point.

-- 
Cheers!


Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/           |"Nerds make the shiny things that
distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172      | the mouth-breathers, and that's
why we're
                                 | powerful!"
#include  |             --Chris Hardwick


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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Ouabache Designworks]

Looks like they have corporate and individual memberships. Individual is
free and probably has no vote. Corp probably costs $$ but gives you a
ballot.

It would be nice if Kicad had an official rep that could attend meetings,
propose rules and vote. At least that way we would know where we differed
from
the standard and could move to support it.

John Eaton

On Tue, Feb 20, 2018 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Cozens  wrote:

> On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:
>
>> Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
>>
> [snip]
>
>>
>> http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
>>
>
> I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't have a
> lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see is what I
> consider one of those typical industry things where you need to join the
> organization in order to gain access to the information. I suspect that to
> get a copy of the actual standard you will have to give them some money at
> some point.
>
> --
> Cheers!
>
> Kevin.
>
> http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that
> distract
> Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
> | powerful!"
> #include  | --Chris Hardwick
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Kevin Cozens]

On 2018-02-20 11:19 AM, Ouabache Designworks wrote:

Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?

[snip]


http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/


I took a look at the website. It sounds interesting but they don't have a 
lot of information available on the site. Part of what I see is what I 
consider one of those typical industry things where you need to join the 
organization in order to gain access to the information. I suspect that to 
get a copy of the actual standard you will have to give them some money at 
some point.


--
Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/   |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract
Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172  | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're
| powerful!"
#include  | --Chris Hardwick

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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Nick Østergaard]

I don't think anything in that regard has changed since:
https://lists.launchpad.net/kicad-developers/msg20588.html


2018-02-20 17:19 GMT+01:00 Ouabache Designworks :

>
> Does Kicad have anyone working with these folks?
>
> Found this on semiwiki.com
>
>
> Hemant enthusiastically replied, *“We encourage anyone interested in
> improving board design processes to join the consortium – there is no fee,
> and no contracts. There are both corporate and associate levels of
> membership, based upon the level of participation of interest. Our web site
> provides lots of information, including the current approved standard and
> the discussion underway for new enhancements in the next revision.”*
>
> http://www.ipc2581.com/articles-and-blogs/
>
>
>
> *“Also, at the upcoming IPC APEX EXPO 2018 conference, designers, EDA
> companies, and manufacturing and assembly houses will be sharing a wealth
> of information on IPC-2581.” *http://www.ipcapexexpo.org/html/default.htm
>
> IPC-2581 is clearly not “just another standard”, in reference to Professor
> Tanenbaum’s quote. This activity has already improved processes and
> procedures for PCB design data exchange and release, *saving money*. Its
> adoption will undoubtedly (and rapidly) become more pervasive.
>
>
>
> John Eaton
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Carter, Gary J.]

Is there serious any consideration to include support for IPC-2581 
a.k.a. IEC/PAS 61182-12 in KiCad EDA?


All the leading commercial software companies in the PCB Design and 
Fabrication space have support or a roadmap for support of this 
standard. The standard enables OEMs, Fabricators, and Manufacturing 
operations to embrace advanced constructs and technological capabilities 
today's design challenges require to be efficient and accurate through 
the entire product lifecycle.  It also opens myriad possibilities to 
integrate with other tools in the design flow and to external business 
systems and processes. The legacy data formats will never offer these 
avenues.


The IPC-2581 Consortia has been looking to engage the open source EDA 
community. We would welcome a conversation to explore the possibilities. 
Our website is www.ipc2581.com. Our charter can be found on 
http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/about


The IPC Standards Committee Homepage for 2-16 Product Data Description 
(Laminar View) Subcommittee who actively develop the standard is found 
here: http://www.ipc.org/CommitteeDetail.aspx?Committee=2-16
Anyone is welcome to submit proposed enhancements through the IPC 
Standards Process. The IPC-2581 Consortium can provide KiCad Developers 
a voice and representation is desired.


Regards,
Gary J. Carter
Vice Chair, 2-16 Product Data Description (Laminar View) Subcommittee

On 9/23/2015 9:15 AM, Carter, Gary J. wrote:

re:

On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 5:54 AM, timofonic timofonic 


wrote:


Hello.

In order to not hijack the ODB++ discussion, here's this other message.

Is IPC-2581 support feasible? They mention about being open. But I'm not
sure how open, because isn't an ISO/IEC/ECMA/IEEE standard and that 
worries

me.


IPC-2581 has been wholly adopted and endorsed by the IEC without 
change. The IEC assigned identifier is IEC/PAS 61182-12.
The IPC document is available free from IPC's website. For those who 
might be developing import/export tools I highly encourage you to join 
the IPC-2581 Consortium. There is technical support available for 
those seeking assistance in the adoption effort. We meet every two 
weeks to assist developers.




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--
Regards,
-Gary J. Carter
 Sr. Manager, CAD Engineering
 Quality, Reliability, and Efficiency Department
 Fujitsu Network Communications, Inc.
 2801 Telecom Parkway
 gary.car...@us.fujitsu.com
 972-479-2236 (Desk)
 214-998-9058 (Cell)

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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Wayne Stambaugh]

Not at the current moment.  Like all things open source, someone will
have a need and that's most likely when it will get implemented.  The
only exception is if someone is willing to pay a developer to implement
it.  AFAIK, there hasn't been any real interest other than discussion.
It's certainly something we would consider in the future but we have
more important things to implement given our limited manpower.

On 9/24/2015 8:38 AM, Carter, Gary J. wrote:
> Is there serious any consideration to include support for IPC-2581
> a.k.a. IEC/PAS 61182-12 in KiCad EDA?
> 
> All the leading commercial software companies in the PCB Design and
> Fabrication space have support or a roadmap for support of this
> standard. The standard enables OEMs, Fabricators, and Manufacturing
> operations to embrace advanced constructs and technological capabilities
> today's design challenges require to be efficient and accurate through
> the entire product lifecycle.  It also opens myriad possibilities to
> integrate with other tools in the design flow and to external business
> systems and processes. The legacy data formats will never offer these
> avenues.
> 
> The IPC-2581 Consortia has been looking to engage the open source EDA
> community. We would welcome a conversation to explore the possibilities.
> Our website is www.ipc2581.com. Our charter can be found on
> http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/about
> 
> The IPC Standards Committee Homepage for 2-16 Product Data Description
> (Laminar View) Subcommittee who actively develop the standard is found
> here: http://www.ipc.org/CommitteeDetail.aspx?Committee=2-16
> Anyone is welcome to submit proposed enhancements through the IPC
> Standards Process. The IPC-2581 Consortium can provide KiCad Developers
> a voice and representation is desired.
> 
> Regards,
> Gary J. Carter
> Vice Chair, 2-16 Product Data Description (Laminar View) Subcommittee
>  
> On 9/23/2015 9:15 AM, Carter, Gary J. wrote:
>> re:
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 5:54 AM, timofonic timofonic
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>>
>>> In order to not hijack the ODB++ discussion, here's this other message.
>>>
>>> Is IPC-2581 support feasible? They mention about being open. But I'm not
>>> sure how open, because isn't an ISO/IEC/ECMA/IEEE standard and that
>>> worries
>>> me.
>>
>> IPC-2581 has been wholly adopted and endorsed by the IEC without
>> change. The IEC assigned identifier is IEC/PAS 61182-12.
>> The IPC document is available free from IPC's website. For those who
>> might be developing import/export tools I highly encourage you to join
>> the IPC-2581 Consortium. There is technical support available for
>> those seeking assistance in the adoption effort. We meet every two
>> weeks to assist developers.
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
>> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
>> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> -Gary J. Carter
>  Sr. Manager, CAD Engineering
>  Quality, Reliability, and Efficiency Department
>  Fujitsu Network Communications, Inc.
>  2801 Telecom Parkway
>  gary.car...@us.fujitsu.com
>  972-479-2236 (Desk)
>  214-998-9058 (Cell)
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Kicad-developers] IPC-2581

[Cirilo Bernardo]

Hi Gary,

I don't believe anyone currently has this in their plans but it is
certainly of interest.
As Wayne pointed out the chief problem is with our limited resources to
devote to
development tasks. At the moment features are only implemented by
individuals
or companies driven by their current needs. At the moment I'm implementing
the
3D solid model export which I require for my own work and I expect this
work to go
on for at least another 6 months since I only do it in my spare time, but
IPC-2581(B)
is on my list of things to look at; thanks for all the information you've
provided, I may
get more involved with this in the future.

- Cirilo


On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 10:38 PM, Carter, Gary J. <
gary.car...@us.fujitsu.com> wrote:

> Is there serious any consideration to include support for IPC-2581 a.k.a.
> IEC/PAS 61182-12 in KiCad EDA?
>
> All the leading commercial software companies in the PCB Design and
> Fabrication space have support or a roadmap for support of this standard.
> The standard enables OEMs, Fabricators, and Manufacturing operations to
> embrace advanced constructs and technological capabilities today's design
> challenges require to be efficient and accurate through the entire product
> lifecycle.  It also opens myriad possibilities to integrate with other
> tools in the design flow and to external business systems and processes.
> The legacy data formats will never offer these avenues.
>
> The IPC-2581 Consortia has been looking to engage the open source EDA
> community. We would welcome a conversation to explore the possibilities.
> Our website is www.ipc2581.com. Our charter can be found on
> http://www.ipc2581.com/index.php/about
>
> The IPC Standards Committee Homepage for 2-16 Product Data Description
> (Laminar View) Subcommittee who actively develop the standard is found
> here: http://www.ipc.org/CommitteeDetail.aspx?Committee=2-16
> Anyone is welcome to submit proposed enhancements through the IPC
> Standards Process. The IPC-2581 Consortium can provide KiCad Developers a
> voice and representation is desired.
>
> Regards,
> Gary J. Carter
> Vice Chair, 2-16 Product Data Description (Laminar View) Subcommittee
>
> On 9/23/2015 9:15 AM, Carter, Gary J. wrote:
>
> re:
>
> On Sun, Sep 13, 2015 at 5:54 AM, timofonic timofonic 
>
> wrote:
>
> Hello.
>
> In order to not hijack the ODB++ discussion, here's this other message.
>
> Is IPC-2581 support feasible? They mention about being open. But I'm not
> sure how open, because isn't an ISO/IEC/ECMA/IEEE standard and that
> worries
> me.
>
>
> IPC-2581 has been wholly adopted and endorsed by the IEC without change.
> The IEC assigned identifier is IEC/PAS 61182-12.
> The IPC document is available free from IPC's website. For those who might
> be developing import/export tools I highly encourage you to join the
> IPC-2581 Consortium. There is technical support available for those seeking
> assistance in the adoption effort. We meet every two weeks to assist
> developers.
>
>
>
> ___
> Mailing list: https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> Post to : kicad-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> Unsubscribe : https://launchpad.net/~kicad-developers
> More help   : https://help.launchpad.net/ListHelp
>
>
> --
> Regards,
> -Gary J. Carter
>  Sr. Manager, CAD Engineering
>  Quality, Reliability, and Efficiency Department
>  Fujitsu Network Communications, Inc.
>  2801 Telecom Parkway
>  gary.car...@us.fujitsu.com
>  972-479-2236 (Desk)
>  214-998-9058 (Cell)
>
>
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>
>
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