Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Cirilo Bernardo]

3D MCAD will generally represent even simple circular arcs as B-Splines,
so it it likely that your arcs were written to DXF as B-Splines or Bezier
curves.
Use librecad to draw the arcs instead; 2D CADs will generally represent
conics as a Euclidean formulation on a Cartesian plane. Re-exporting will
not fix the issue because it would be very unusual for a 2D CAD to analyze
a B-Spline and convert it to a Euclidean conic.

I can see a use for polynomial splines and B-splines as graphical objects
in KiCad (including the board outline) but this requires some thought on
how we represent such objects without having a negative impact on the
code or file format. Such a feature would allow greater freedom in the
design
of the board outline (a useful feature for some commercial work) and would
also allow us to represent odd items from other ECADs such as the elliptical
arcs of Altium and gEda. While representing an actual ellipse using the
typical Euclidian formulation on a Cartesian plane is a nightmare, a
B-Spline representation is actually fairly easy to manipulate. Of course a
graphical editor for polynomial and rational B-splines would be a challenge
to develop, but it's been done before.

- Cirilo


On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 2:54 PM, Marcos Chaparro 
wrote:

> Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably that shape
>>> needs to
>>>
>> split to single arcs before import.
>
>
>
> Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I made
> it from 4 arcs, see attached.
>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marco Hess]

Hi Maurice,

The interesting issue then is that the procedure of 'simply' importing 
in LibreCad and then "Save As' DXF R12 as currently documented in the 
'pcbnew' manual did not fix the issue.


Other than 'redrawing' as you did, is there another 'fool proof' way 
that this could have worked that is worth putting in the documentation?


At this stage I don't fully understand as to why the save in R12 format 
did not fix it.


Marco

On 09-Sep-15 18:54, easyw wrote:

Hi Marcos and Marco,

please find attached the dxf that I did from scratch using 4 arcs in 
LibreCAD

I copied manually the path from palta2.dxf, then exported in dxf R12
The result is fine in kicad and I get a closed path also for Edge cuts.

in kicad there are 4 arcs
  (gr_arc (start 178.564202 123.937945) (end 153.273203 83.107373) 
(angle -26.04011298) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 156.68577 88.642784) (end 162.837792 90.749678) 
(angle -140.5586133) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 196.246745 102.229265) (end 162.837792 90.749678) 
(angle -22.2858684) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 148.500893 105.004408) (end 137.915937 98.354967) 
(angle -215.4739741) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))


If you search inside palta2.dxf you find POLYLINE that are not 
supported by kicad


attached a comparison of dxf files

I suspect that the problem is when exporting dxf from FreeCAD...
I had some trouble with a different board path exported from FreeCAD...
In FreeCAD you cannot select which version of dxf you want to use, if 
I remember correctly...


Maurice







On 09/09/2015 07.43, Marco Hess wrote:

Definitely a problem with the DXF importer I would say as the resulting
data in the PCB file are just  straight line segments:

   (gr_line (start 42.68541 28.017695) (end 52.25 35.66) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 27.328145 43.265288) (end 42.68541 28.017695) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 50.392159 49.187096) (end 27.328145 43.265288) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 52.25 35.66) (end 50.392159 49.187096) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:58, Marco Hess wrote:

Hi Marcos,

Apologies, but I did not see your original email where you said you
tried the R12 format alreayd.

I tried it as well and and it indeed seems to do something strange
with just connecting the end points of the circles or something.

Regards,

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:29, Marco Hess wrote:

KiCad DXF import for those kind of segments don't work very well. You
need to re-export the DXF in a DXF R12 format.

You can do that easily by opening the DXF in LibreCAD and then
reexporting in R12 format.

See http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/Pcbnew/Pcbnew.html#_creating_a_board

Section 6.1.2 and 6.1.3.

Cheers,

Marco


On 09-Sep-15 14:24, Marcos Chaparro wrote:


Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably
that shape needs to

split to single arcs before import.


Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I
made it from 4 arcs, see attached.


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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[easyw]

Hi Marcos and Marco,

please find attached the dxf that I did from scratch using 4 arcs in 
LibreCAD

I copied manually the path from palta2.dxf, then exported in dxf R12
The result is fine in kicad and I get a closed path also for Edge cuts.

in kicad there are 4 arcs
  (gr_arc (start 178.564202 123.937945) (end 153.273203 83.107373) 
(angle -26.04011298) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 156.68577 88.642784) (end 162.837792 90.749678) (angle 
-140.5586133) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 196.246745 102.229265) (end 162.837792 90.749678) 
(angle -22.2858684) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 148.500893 105.004408) (end 137.915937 98.354967) 
(angle -215.4739741) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))


If you search inside palta2.dxf you find POLYLINE that are not supported 
by kicad


attached a comparison of dxf files

I suspect that the problem is when exporting dxf from FreeCAD...
I had some trouble with a different board path exported from FreeCAD...
In FreeCAD you cannot select which version of dxf you want to use, if I 
remember correctly...


Maurice







On 09/09/2015 07.43, Marco Hess wrote:

Definitely a problem with the DXF importer I would say as the resulting
data in the PCB file are just  straight line segments:

   (gr_line (start 42.68541 28.017695) (end 52.25 35.66) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 27.328145 43.265288) (end 42.68541 28.017695) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 50.392159 49.187096) (end 27.328145 43.265288) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 52.25 35.66) (end 50.392159 49.187096) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:58, Marco Hess wrote:

Hi Marcos,

Apologies, but I did not see your original email where you said you
tried the R12 format alreayd.

I tried it as well and and it indeed seems to do something strange
with just connecting the end points of the circles or something.

Regards,

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:29, Marco Hess wrote:

KiCad DXF import for those kind of segments don't work very well. You
need to re-export the DXF in a DXF R12 format.

You can do that easily by opening the DXF in LibreCAD and then
reexporting in R12 format.

See http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/Pcbnew/Pcbnew.html#_creating_a_board

Section 6.1.2 and 6.1.3.

Cheers,

Marco


On 09-Sep-15 14:24, Marcos Chaparro wrote:


Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably
that shape needs to

split to single arcs before import.


Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I
made it from 4 arcs, see attached.


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(kicad_pcb (version 4) (host pcbnew "(2015-08-31 BZR 6138)-product")

  (general
(links 0)
(no_connects 0)
(area 135.950638 82.089985 196.296746 123.987946)
(thickness 1.6)
(drawings 4)
(tracks 0)
(zones 0)
(modules 0)
(nets 1)
  )

  (page A4)
  (layers
(0 F.Cu signal)
(1 In1.Cu signal)
(2 In2.Cu signal)
(31 B.Cu signal)
(32 B.Adhes user)
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(34 B.Paste user)
(35 F.Paste user)
(36 B.SilkS user)
(37 F.SilkS user)
(38 B.Mask user)
(39 F.Mask user)
(40 Dwgs.User user)
(41 Cmts.User user)
(42 Eco1.User user)
(43 Eco2.User user)
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(user_via 1.397 0.889)
(user_via 1.778 0.889)
(uvia_size 

Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[LordBlick]

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 13:59, from Marco Hess:

Hi Maurice,

The interesting issue then is that the procedure of 'simply' importing in
LibreCad and then "Save As' DXF R12 as currently documented in the 'pcbnew'
manual did not fix the issue.

Other than 'redrawing' as you did, is there another 'fool proof' way that
this could have worked that is worth putting in the documentation?

At this stage I don't fully understand as to why the save in R12 format did
not fix it.

That's why any import/export plugin should be developed in separate repository
as dynamic loadable library or script, release stadium blocks any new
improvements in plugin, even much necessary.

--
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LordBlick

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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marco Hess]

I 'rewrote' the DXF R12 conversion procedure for the manual as follows.

I checked it like this and this works with the original DXF file from 
Marcos.


Does this reflect the general understanding?

 Notes on importing DXF files

The *DXF* import capability in KiCad is limited as there is no support
for 'advanced' shapes like *POLYLINES* and *ELLIPSIS*. For best results,
*POLYLINES* need to be broken into their original simpler shapes and
*ELLIPSIS* and other advanced curve shapes need to be converted into a
series of short line segments to approximate the shape.

That an entity in a DXF drawing is a *POLYLINE* , can be noted in
LibreCAD when you try to select the shape and the whole shape
consisting of multiple curves and lines gets selected as one.

To break up such a *POLYLINES*, use LibreCAD as follows:
. Ensure you leave the *POLYLINE* *unselected*.
. In the 'Modify' menu, select 'Explode'
. Click on the *POLYLINE* to select.
. Press ENTER.
. Click on parts of the original shape and notice that you can
  select/un-select individual segments of the shape.

The conversion of the complex curves like *ELLIPSIS* can now be achieved
by simply exporting the DXF drawing to the 'old' *DXF R12* file format.
This format does not support shapes like *ELLIPSIS* and exporting to the
*DXF R12* format 'forces' the CAD software to 'approximate' the shape with
line segments that can then be successfully imported into KiCad.

With the DXF open in LibreCAD, export to the *DXF R12* format as follows:
. In the 'File' menu, use 'Save As...'
. Towards the bottom of 'Save Drawing As' dialog, select
  'Drawing Exchange DXF R12 (*.dxf)' in the 'Save as type:' selection.
. Enter a different file name, if you like to preserve your original DXF 
file.


Here is an example of an DXF import with a board that had several
elliptical segments approximated by a number of short line segments:

image:images/Pcbnew_board_outline_imported_from_a_DXF.png[]





On 09-Sep-15 23:01, Marcos Chaparro wrote:

Thanks a lot Maurice,
so the solution for a complex outline is to draw it directly in 
librecad. Its good to know that exporting to R12 is not bulletproof. I 
don't see exporting upgrades coming into freecad, or polyline support 
coming into kicad either.


As Cirilo told us, it seems reasonable to me that the mcad could 
reduce the representation to a more complex (and simpler at the same 
time) representation.


A 'cheap' improvement would be to add a warning in the import dialog 
saying "polyline not supported". It would narrow down the problem for 
the user, right now all the feedback we have is a shape with lines 
instead of arcs.


Its interesting that it doesn't totally fail, the import actually 
manages to draw lines with the correct start/finish points, it only 
loses angle information, see attached.



Marcos

On Wed, Sep 9, 2015 at 6:24 AM, easyw > wrote:


Hi Marcos and Marco,

please find attached the dxf that I did from scratch using 4 arcs
in LibreCAD
I copied manually the path from palta2.dxf, then exported in dxf R12
The result is fine in kicad and I get a closed path also for Edge
cuts.

in kicad there are 4 arcs
  (gr_arc (start 178.564202 123.937945) (end 153.273203 83.107373)
(angle -26.04011298) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 156.68577 88.642784) (end 162.837792 90.749678)
(angle -140.5586133) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 196.246745 102.229265) (end 162.837792 90.749678)
(angle -22.2858684) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_arc (start 148.500893 105.004408) (end 137.915937 98.354967)
(angle -215.4739741) (layer Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))

If you search inside palta2.dxf you find POLYLINE that are not
supported by kicad

attached a comparison of dxf files

I suspect that the problem is when exporting dxf from FreeCAD...
I had some trouble with a different board path exported from
FreeCAD...
In FreeCAD you cannot select which version of dxf you want to use,
if I remember correctly...

Maurice








On 09/09/2015 07.43, Marco Hess wrote:

Definitely a problem with the DXF importer I would say as the
resulting
data in the PCB file are just  straight line segments:

   (gr_line (start 42.68541 28.017695) (end 52.25 35.66) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 27.328145 43.265288) (end 42.68541
28.017695) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 50.392159 49.187096) (end 27.328145
43.265288) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
   (gr_line (start 52.25 35.66) (end 50.392159 49.187096) (layer
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:58, Marco Hess wrote:

Hi Marcos,

Apologies, but I did not see your original email where you
said you
tried the R12 

Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[easyw]

I still consider that a message to be added as warning in the import 
dialog saying "use R12 dxf version without polyline" would be useful



On 09/09/2015 18.31, LordBlick wrote:

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 17:56, from easyw:

A good solution is to open palta2.dxf, select the object and explode
it (I'm
using LibreCAD 2.0.8 in windows: Select object, Menu Modify Explode)



Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not  few arcs. Probably that shape
needs to split to single arcs before import.

I told you so… ;) Polyline in fact is a simple kind of Quadratic Bézier -
control point is opposite on the symmetric line to arc center, but is
closely
related to it.



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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[LordBlick]

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 20:53, from easyw:

I still consider that a message to be added as warning in the import dialog
saying "use R12 dxf version without polyline" would be useful
Maybe: „Polyline detected, try to explode/split it in LibreCAD/qcad and save in 
R12 dxf version"


--
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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[LordBlick]

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 17:56, from easyw:

A good solution is to open palta2.dxf, select the object and explode it (I'm
using LibreCAD 2.0.8 in windows: Select object, Menu Modify Explode)



Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not  few arcs. Probably that shape
needs to split to single arcs before import.

I told you so… ;) Polyline in fact is a simple kind of Quadratic Bézier -
control point is opposite on the symmetric line to arc center, but is closely
related to it.

--
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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[easyw]

I just added

AddMenuItem( submenuImport, ID_GEN_IMPORT_DXF_FILE,
 _( " File (R12 best supported (no polylines), units mm)" ),

to my import menu in
menubar_pcbframe.cpp

That is an easy reminder each time I use import dxf function :)

On 09/09/2015 22.52, LordBlick wrote:

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 20:53, from easyw:

I still consider that a message to be added as warning in the import
dialog
saying "use R12 dxf version without polyline" would be useful

Maybe: „Polyline detected, try to explode/split it in LibreCAD/qcad and
save in R12 dxf version"

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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Nick Østergaard]

I think that kind of text is better suited in the DXF import dialog itself.

2015-09-09 23:08 GMT+02:00 easyw :
> I just added
>
> AddMenuItem( submenuImport, ID_GEN_IMPORT_DXF_FILE,
>  _( " File (R12 best supported (no polylines), units mm)" ),
>
> to my import menu in
> menubar_pcbframe.cpp
>
> That is an easy reminder each time I use import dxf function :)
>
>
> On 09/09/2015 22.52, LordBlick wrote:
>>
>> In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 20:53, from easyw:
>>>
>>> I still consider that a message to be added as warning in the import
>>> dialog
>>> saying "use R12 dxf version without polyline" would be useful
>>
>> Maybe: „Polyline detected, try to explode/split it in LibreCAD/qcad and
>> save in R12 dxf version"
>>
>
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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marco Hess]

Definitely a problem with the DXF importer I would say as the resulting 
data in the PCB file are just  straight line segments:


  (gr_line (start 42.68541 28.017695) (end 52.25 35.66) (layer 
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_line (start 27.328145 43.265288) (end 42.68541 28.017695) (layer 
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_line (start 50.392159 49.187096) (end 27.328145 43.265288) (layer 
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))
  (gr_line (start 52.25 35.66) (end 50.392159 49.187096) (layer 
Edge.Cuts) (width 0.1))


Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:58, Marco Hess wrote:

Hi Marcos,

Apologies, but I did not see your original email where you said you 
tried the R12 format alreayd.


I tried it as well and and it indeed seems to do something strange 
with just connecting the end points of the circles or something.


Regards,

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:29, Marco Hess wrote:
KiCad DXF import for those kind of segments don't work very well. You 
need to re-export the DXF in a DXF R12 format.


You can do that easily by opening the DXF in LibreCAD and then 
reexporting in R12 format.


See http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/Pcbnew/Pcbnew.html#_creating_a_board

Section 6.1.2 and 6.1.3.

Cheers,

Marco


On 09-Sep-15 14:24, Marcos Chaparro wrote:


Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably
that shape needs to

split to single arcs before import.


Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I 
made it from 4 arcs, see attached.



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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[LordBlick]

In response to a message written on 09.09.2015, 05:24, from Marcos Chaparro:

I'm trying to import a simple dxf outline that is made from 4 arcs. The
figure was designed in freecad, and exported as dxf.

Importing that dxf in kicad didn't work, so I opened the dxf in librecad and
 saved it as DXF R12, and the result was the same.

I know the dxf import is not fully supported, but I was wondering if I'm
doing something silly. I'm attaching the dxf and an image.

Should I try draftsight? or maybe give up and make it by hand?

This particular outline could be done by hand using the arcs coordinates, but
 the test file is so simple I thought it could be helpful to debug the
issue.

Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably that shape needs to
split to single arcs before import.

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Best Regards,
LordBlick

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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marcos Chaparro]

>
> Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably that shape
>> needs to
>>
> split to single arcs before import.



Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I made it
from 4 arcs, see attached.
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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marco Hess]

KiCad DXF import for those kind of segments don't work very well. You 
need to re-export the DXF in a DXF R12 format.


You can do that easily by opening the DXF in LibreCAD and then 
reexporting in R12 format.


See http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/Pcbnew/Pcbnew.html#_creating_a_board

Section 6.1.2 and 6.1.3.

Cheers,

Marco


On 09-Sep-15 14:24, Marcos Chaparro wrote:


Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably
that shape needs to

split to single arcs before import.


Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I 
made it from 4 arcs, see attached.



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Re: [Kicad-developers] dxf: import 4 arcs

[Marco Hess]

Hi Marcos,

Apologies, but I did not see your original email where you said you 
tried the R12 format alreayd.


I tried it as well and and it indeed seems to do something strange with 
just connecting the end points of the circles or something.


Regards,

Marco

On 09-Sep-15 14:29, Marco Hess wrote:
KiCad DXF import for those kind of segments don't work very well. You 
need to re-export the DXF in a DXF R12 format.


You can do that easily by opening the DXF in LibreCAD and then 
reexporting in R12 format.


See http://docs.kicad-pcb.org/Pcbnew/Pcbnew.html#_creating_a_board

Section 6.1.2 and 6.1.3.

Cheers,

Marco


On 09-Sep-15 14:24, Marcos Chaparro wrote:


Seems that is kind of Berzier Curve, not few arcs. Probably
that shape needs to

split to single arcs before import.


Um, I don't know if its converted to a bezier curve, but I'm sure I 
made it from 4 arcs, see attached.



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