Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-22 Thread Robert
Stephane,

I noticed this problem long ago.   I use kicad professionally, but I 
cannot see how *anyone* could use these footprints as they are except by 
simply producing boards without a silk screen.   However, I don't 
understand why you find this such a show-stopper.   When I find such a 
footprint I simply save it in my own library, modify the silk screen, 
and carry on.   It takes a few seconds, and I usually use the 
opportunity to set text visibility and size to my own personal 
preferences.   And therein lies the rub; whoever creates the library, no 
matter how careful they are they will likely have different requirements 
from you, so you end up having to edit the supplied footprints anyway.

What I personally find a big show-stopper in commercial PCB packages is 
the appalling UI.   This generally seems to originate from a Unix 
command line app that was ported to a DOS graphical interface and then 
the resulting irregularly octagonal peg has been rammed into a Windows 
round hole (the authors of the last such package I used were so proud of 
this feature they made it part of their marketing).   After a day of 
using such a package I'm generally absolutely furious, which does 
nothing for the quality of my work.   I'm producing boards far more 
professionally with kicad than I ever did with a commercial product, and 
that is almost entirely down to the kicad UI.   It isn't perfect, but at 
least it largely follows current practice.   Footprints I can fix 
easily; fixing the UI is rather more difficult.

Since you're clearly upset by the existing library, have you considered 
donating your own library to the kicad project?

Regards,

Robert.


Stephrac74 wrote:
 I’ve got these libs… thanks. They are converted from an other CAD software 
 (Eagle I guess). You will notice that these libs can’t be viewed or managed 
 by the Lib management tools which are in portugese or so (Mod2mod, Lib2lib, 
 …) for some reason.
 
  
 
 To illustrates what I was saying, on the www.kicadlib.org, most of the SMD 
 parts which can be seen from this link have the issue. For instance :
 
 http://www.kicadlib.org/modules/d2pak.png
 
 http://www.kicadlib.org/modules/tssoic28.png
 
 http://www.kicadlib.org/modules/vqfp80.png
 
 http://www.kicadlib.org/modules/3M_Serie_2500_SMD.PNG
 
  
 
 You see the silkscreen on pads ! no way to industrialize a PCB from this. It 
 must be modified…
 
  
 
 Same remark on some libs I’m using from  http://library.oshec.org/ 
 http://library.oshec.org/ like the vishay 153 caps, diods, transistors or 
 power transistors…
 
  
 
 this one is correct : http://www.kicadlib.org/modules/lm4674_llp_sqa16a.png
 
  
 
 After a deeper look at these additional libs, I think most of the SMD part 
 numbers have the issue  L
 
  
 
 So what I’m doing now is to pick up the component I need from these libs, and 
 then duplicate it into a own lib and modify it !
 
 I’ve spent all the day doing that and I’ve not finished ! This is a nightmare 
   ;-)
 
  
 
 For this project I guess I’m going to continue but for new projects I may 
 switch to another CAD system. Altium Designer looks good and is not so 
 expensive. It’s a pity as I like Kicad and the job done for the development 
 is fantastic,  but … these 2% details makes me wasting my time so my money…
 
  
 
 Best
 
 Stephane
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
 De : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-us...@yahoogroups.com] De la 
 part de Andy Eskelson
 Envoyé : jeudi 21 janvier 2010 17:40
 À : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com
 Objet : Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable
 
  
 
   
 
 I understand, there is not really much that can be done about that apart
 from a reedit.
 
 The only thing I can suggest is to have a look at some other libs. 
 
 If you have a look here:
 
 http://library.oshec.org/
 
 There are 1000's of converted libs and mods, and looking at some of them
 the outlines do keep clear of the pads, (at least on the sides needed for
 solder on the dpacks I looked at as examples.)
 
 At the top of the page is a link to download the whole lot, about a 12Mb
 download.
 
 That might save you a bit of time.
 
 The above site is linked via 
 
 http://www.kicadlib.org/
 
 then via 
 
 http://per.launay.free.fr/kicad/kicad_php/composant.php
 
 Both the kicadlib and Pierre Launay's sites are worth bookmarking
 
 Andy
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:18:25 +0100
 Stephrac74 stephra...@wanadoo.fr mailto:stephrac74%40wanadoo.fr  wrote:
 
 Hi Andy,



 In fact this option only enables you to add or not the pads footprint on the 
 silkscreen.



 The problem is different. The components silkscreens in libs are drawn on 
 pads making soldering impossible. I do not see other option rather than 
 making the modification on each concerned component.

 This is usually the problem when libs are made by contributors and not 
 checked. The problem occurs for instance for Vishay electrolytic caps, SMD 
 crystals, sot223, DPACK, etc…



 I’ve started 5 hours ago to modify all

RE: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-22 Thread Stephrac74
Hi Robert,

 

Thanks for your long answer.

 

The libs are not stopping me for professional use, just wasting time to do
my own or modify the existing ones. I’ve spent all the day yesterday on that
and I’ve still to spend a lot of time to change all the components text and
silkscreen size to get something consistent ! The minimum is to get all the
components with the same visual aspect from the simple R to the most complex
connector or chip. The lib management is hard to handle and that also
requires a lot of time to get nice libs.  I’ve to admit that everything can
be done thanks to several workarounds, but the amount of time needed to get
a correct result is simply amazing.

 

What is really a problem with Kicad for me is the ability to add some
mechanical schematics from DXF or 3D manufacturer models.

My current project on Kicad is the first one for a professional use and the
PCB must fit in a ALUSTYLE Bopla box. The mechanical integration is
sensitive as there is no much place to fit everything and some components
like the LCD or connectors must be accurately positioned (tolerance about
0.1mm). I’ve drawn the box on the drawing layer but this is really not easy
as Kicad is not mechanics drawing oriented. I could approach something but
I’m not happy with the accuracy of the design. I have to admit that if you
spend a lot of time and have many iterations you can approach an acceptable
result.

 

I’m the first guy to promote Kicad. Last Month I’ve even given a training
for some hams friends, because I really think this is a nice CAD tool for
the one who hasn’t too much exigencies. But the different limitations I’m
facing now just make me wasting really a lot of time. I’ve started this PCB
5 days ago and I’ve still not drawn a track ! Just created components and
mechanics… It’s a little bit discouraging.

I would be happy to publish my libs once completed but I don’t believe that
is the good method. One more lib with some components inside… lack of
consistency. However it may help saving time for some people and I will post
it soon. In order to get something valuable for lib sharing, I think a
moderator should publish the ‘rules’ for creating components and libs, then
receive the libs from everybody, check it and then include the component in
the core libs. Thus that would bring component consistency, limited libs
number and sorted libs… That would be great.. I now this is a lot of work.

 

A friend of mine is using Altium Designer and is happy with it. I decided to
look at its features and watched the videos on their website :
http://videos.altium.com/trainingcenter/od_player.html

I’ve been really  impressed by the nice editing features and the 2D/3D
mechanics integration that I decided to download the demo version from their
website. 

My first overall impression is that it’s much more complex than Kicad of
course and for someone who just need to design few PCB per year that might
not be interesting to spend time for training. However, the edit functions
for schematics and PCB are very very powerful, helping saving a lot of time
(easy to reuse part of  SCH or PCB, tracks can be moved without redrawing,
and so on…)

The versions costs 1000 or 4000$ but I haven’t yet checked the differences
between both. 1K$ may be acceptable for me.

 

I’m going to spend a while to see if Altium could be fast to learn. If so
and if it really bring to me the ability to manage the mechanics part easily
I may swith. I’m using Kicad since more than one year and made few PCB. But
until now, none of them were to be industrialized so these limitations where
I’m spending time were not important. 

 

My conclusion is that drawing PCB is not my added value as a designer and I
need to get something efficient which really give me the opportunity to do
the job with the minimum spent time.

 

Best

Stephane

 

 

De : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-us...@yahoogroups.com] De la
part de Robert
Envoyé : vendredi 22 janvier 2010 10:54
À : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

 

  

Stephane,

I noticed this problem long ago. I use kicad professionally, but I 
cannot see how *anyone* could use these footprints as they are except by 
simply producing boards without a silk screen. However, I don't 
understand why you find this such a show-stopper. When I find such a 
footprint I simply save it in my own library, modify the silk screen, 
and carry on. It takes a few seconds, and I usually use the 
opportunity to set text visibility and size to my own personal 
preferences. And therein lies the rub; whoever creates the library, no 
matter how careful they are they will likely have different requirements 
from you, so you end up having to edit the supplied footprints anyway.

What I personally find a big show-stopper in commercial PCB packages is 
the appalling UI. This generally seems to originate from a Unix 
command line app that was ported to a DOS graphical interface

Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-22 Thread Robert
Stephane,

I've not bothered to go through the entire library of footprints, I just 
edit them on demand.   The net result is that the total time I've spent 
on this is perhaps minutes.   I don't bother editing a footprint just 
because the text isn't as I like it unless I know I'm going to be 
placing a lot of that particular footprint, the reason being that I 
usually end up moving and editing component texts on the board itself 
anyway in order to squeeze them into the (usually very limited) 
available space.   If you like I can send you a photo of one of my kicad 
boards and you can decide for yourself if it looks professional enough.

I've just completed a design for a customer using their mechanical 
drawing originally created in AutoCAD, and posted a description (in 
English) of how to do it on this list.

Altium does seem to have a good reputation, but of course you need to 
have the money for it - and the inevitable upgrades.   Like anything 
else you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Regards,

Robert.

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RE: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-22 Thread Stephrac74
Robert, I would be interested in your pics. You can drop it directly by mail
: stephra...@wanadoo.fr

 

For DXF import I’ve read your post on the topic, explaining your method. It
seems it works for you but you have to recognize that the method is painful.
I’ve just imported DXF and 3D STEP models in Altium in few clicks. That’s
definitely a nice feature. 

 

You’re right saying  you need to have the money for getting and maintaining
a software. It’s acceptable as long as the software makes you saving at
least the equivalent money ! I’m becoming a self employed man and I would
not hesitate to let my company paying 1k$ if I was sure to gain time  with
the software. I will spend 1-2 days for Altium evaluation and decide with
which one I will continue the project.

 

Coming back on Kicad, I guess I would keep it for a professional use if it
could have at least the DXF import and a better lib management tool. The
silkscreen  consistency  issue is painful at beginning but project after
project it becomes easier as your own lib starts to be wide enough to cover
your usual applications. I will definitely keep it for my amateur use.

 

For N1IST, I had also experienced the silkscreen issue with a PCB
manufacturer who didn’t spent time to correct it. So I would say that
sometime it works, .. sometime not !

 

Best

Stephane, 

F1TJJ

 

 

De : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-us...@yahoogroups.com] De la
part de Robert
Envoyé : vendredi 22 janvier 2010 12:51
À : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

 

  

Stephane,

I've not bothered to go through the entire library of footprints, I just 
edit them on demand. The net result is that the total time I've spent 
on this is perhaps minutes. I don't bother editing a footprint just 
because the text isn't as I like it unless I know I'm going to be 
placing a lot of that particular footprint, the reason being that I 
usually end up moving and editing component texts on the board itself 
anyway in order to squeeze them into the (usually very limited) 
available space. If you like I can send you a photo of one of my kicad 
boards and you can decide for yourself if it looks professional enough.

I've just completed a design for a customer using their mechanical 
drawing originally created in AutoCAD, and posted a description (in 
English) of how to do it on this list.

Altium does seem to have a good reputation, but of course you need to 
have the money for it - and the inevitable upgrades. Like anything 
else you pays your money and you takes your choice.

Regards,

Robert.



 


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Aucun virus connu à ce jour par nos services n'a été détecté.

 

image001.jpg

[kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-21 Thread Stephrac74
Hi group,

 

I’ve noticed that most of the library components have unusable silkscreens.
Most of the time, the lib silkscreen shows the component itself with pads
and so on instead of a simple square or so, and the silkscreen often covers
the pads which is amazing !

 

This is not usable for PCB industrialization. I’ve decided to don’t use
anymore the Kicad libs and to redesign all my needed components  ! This is a
major issue according to me and a major waste of time… I have no time
anymore to change the software.

 

Regarding the different limitations I’m facing for a professional use, I’m
starting having regrets to have chosen Kicad …   L This is a fantastic
software, and free, but the 2% of missing details makes this software not
usable for professional use according to me and requires a lot more time
even for an amateur use than an other software.

 

Hoping it will be improved, but last release is already 1 year ago and the
wish list is so long that I have not added my comments.

 

 

Best

Stephane

 



Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-21 Thread Andy Eskelson
Have you unticked the print pads on silkscreen option? ( plot menu
lower left hand corner)

Andy



On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:03:07 +0100
Stephrac74 stephra...@wanadoo.fr wrote:

 Hi group,
 
  
 
 I’ve noticed that most of the library components have unusable silkscreens.
 Most of the time, the lib silkscreen shows the component itself with pads
 and so on instead of a simple square or so, and the silkscreen often covers
 the pads which is amazing !
 
  
 
 This is not usable for PCB industrialization. I’ve decided to don’t use
 anymore the Kicad libs and to redesign all my needed components  ! This is a
 major issue according to me and a major waste of time… I have no time
 anymore to change the software.
 
  
 
 Regarding the different limitations I’m facing for a professional use, I’m
 starting having regrets to have chosen Kicad …   L This is a fantastic
 software, and free, but the 2% of missing details makes this software not
 usable for professional use according to me and requires a lot more time
 even for an amateur use than an other software.
 
  
 
 Hoping it will be improved, but last release is already 1 year ago and the
 wish list is so long that I have not added my comments.
 
  
 
  
 
 Best
 
 Stephane
 
  
 


RE: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-21 Thread Stephrac74
Hi Andy,

 

In fact this option only enables you to add or not the pads footprint on the 
silkscreen.

 

The problem is different. The components silkscreens in libs are drawn on pads 
making soldering impossible. I do not see other option rather than making the 
modification on each concerned component.

This is usually the problem when libs are made by contributors and not checked. 
The problem occurs for instance for Vishay electrolytic caps, SMD crystals, 
sot223, DPACK, etc…

 

I’ve started 5 hours ago to modify all the components I’m using on this board 
and once modified, creating my own libs. In the same time I can arrange libs in 
a better way but the work is huge and I’ve not really the time to do that for 
that project… but no way…

 

Stephane

 

 

 

 

 

De : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-us...@yahoogroups.com] De la 
part de Andy Eskelson
Envoyé : jeudi 21 janvier 2010 12:30
À : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com
Objet : Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

 

  

Have you unticked the print pads on silkscreen option? ( plot menu
lower left hand corner)

Andy

On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:03:07 +0100
Stephrac74 stephra...@wanadoo.fr mailto:stephrac74%40wanadoo.fr  wrote:

 Hi group,
 
 
 
 I’ve noticed that most of the library components have unusable silkscreens.
 Most of the time, the lib silkscreen shows the component itself with pads
 and so on instead of a simple square or so, and the silkscreen often covers
 the pads which is amazing !
 
 
 
 This is not usable for PCB industrialization. I’ve decided to don’t use
 anymore the Kicad libs and to redesign all my needed components ! This is a
 major issue according to me and a major waste of time… I have no time
 anymore to change the software.
 
 
 
 Regarding the different limitations I’m facing for a professional use, I’m
 starting having regrets to have chosen Kicad … L This is a fantastic
 software, and free, but the 2% of missing details makes this software not
 usable for professional use according to me and requires a lot more time
 even for an amateur use than an other software.
 
 
 
 Hoping it will be improved, but last release is already 1 year ago and the
 wish list is so long that I have not added my comments.
 
 
 
 
 
 Best
 
 Stephane
 
 
 



 

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image001.jpgimage002.jpg

Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable

2010-01-21 Thread Andy Eskelson
I understand, there is not really much that can be done about that apart
from a reedit.

The only thing I can suggest is to have a look at some other libs. 

If you have a look here:

http://library.oshec.org/

There are 1000's of converted libs and mods, and looking at some of them
the outlines do keep clear of the pads, (at least on the sides needed for
solder on the dpacks I looked at as examples.)

At the top of the page is a link to download the whole lot, about a 12Mb
download.

That might save you a bit of time.

The above site is linked via 

http://www.kicadlib.org/

then via 

http://per.launay.free.fr/kicad/kicad_php/composant.php

Both the kicadlib and Pierre Launay's sites are worth bookmarking




Andy






On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 14:18:25 +0100
Stephrac74 stephra...@wanadoo.fr wrote:

 Hi Andy,
 
  
 
 In fact this option only enables you to add or not the pads footprint on the 
 silkscreen.
 
  
 
 The problem is different. The components silkscreens in libs are drawn on 
 pads making soldering impossible. I do not see other option rather than 
 making the modification on each concerned component.
 
 This is usually the problem when libs are made by contributors and not 
 checked. The problem occurs for instance for Vishay electrolytic caps, SMD 
 crystals, sot223, DPACK, etc…
 
  
 
 I’ve started 5 hours ago to modify all the components I’m using on this board 
 and once modified, creating my own libs. In the same time I can arrange libs 
 in a better way but the work is huge and I’ve not really the time to do that 
 for that project… but no way…
 
  
 
 Stephane
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
 De : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com [mailto:kicad-us...@yahoogroups.com] De la 
 part de Andy Eskelson
 Envoyé : jeudi 21 janvier 2010 12:30
 À : kicad-users@yahoogroups.com
 Objet : Re: [kicad-users] libs silkscreens unusable
 
  
 
   
 
 Have you unticked the print pads on silkscreen option? ( plot menu
 lower left hand corner)
 
 Andy
 
 On Thu, 21 Jan 2010 11:03:07 +0100
 Stephrac74 stephra...@wanadoo.fr mailto:stephrac74%40wanadoo.fr  wrote:
 
  Hi group,
  
  
  
  I’ve noticed that most of the library components have unusable silkscreens.
  Most of the time, the lib silkscreen shows the component itself with pads
  and so on instead of a simple square or so, and the silkscreen often covers
  the pads which is amazing !
  
  
  
  This is not usable for PCB industrialization. I’ve decided to don’t use
  anymore the Kicad libs and to redesign all my needed components ! This is a
  major issue according to me and a major waste of time… I have no time
  anymore to change the software.
  
  
  
  Regarding the different limitations I’m facing for a professional use, I’m
  starting having regrets to have chosen Kicad … L This is a fantastic
  software, and free, but the 2% of missing details makes this software not
  usable for professional use according to me and requires a lot more time
  even for an amateur use than an other software.
  
  
  
  Hoping it will be improved, but last release is already 1 year ago and the
  wish list is so long that I have not added my comments.
  
  
  
  
  
  Best
  
  Stephane
  
  
  
 
 
 
  
 
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