[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #15 from delaye  ---
Created attachment 109348
  -->
https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=109348=edit
notforloan detail.pl - js

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #14 from delaye  ---
Created attachment 109347
  -->
https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=109347=edit
Notforalon detail.pl after

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #13 from delaye  ---
Created attachment 109346
  -->
https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/attachment.cgi?id=109346=edit
Notforloan detail.pl

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

delaye  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||stephane.del...@biblibre.co
   ||m

--- Comment #12 from delaye  ---
French academic libraries have the same problems as those indicated by Marcel
and Joy.

Also in search results  opac : it is indicated that the item is 'On loan' with
the flag at '1' in items.restricted. (see /home/koha/src/C4/XSLT.pm).
It's not consistent.

The confusion between notforloan and restricted is also seen in the table of
items (screen detail.pl) because Koha displays two contradictory information
(Notforloan => On loan and Restricticed => not communicable).
The notforloan column in this items table  display errors which requires us to
do some jquery customization to harmonize the information and hide the
inconsistencies.(cf attachments)


The differences between notforlan and a 'item trap' (withdrawn, lost,
restricted, damaged):
-a "item trap" is stronger than notforloan in terms of display.Koha displays
the trap and not notforloan

-on the return of a item, the trap is displayed , not notforloan

-notforloan is sustainable information not necessarily the value of the trap

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Nicole C. Engard  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC|neng...@gmail.com   |

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #9 from Marcel de Rooy m.de.r...@rijksmuseum.nl ---
(In reply to Joy Nelson from comment #6)
 If additional values are not allowed (i.e. not functional as '1') for
 RESTRICTED, then it probably should not be a field that runs off an
 'authorised_value' list.  Either hard code it like the 942$n suppress value
 or allow additional values.  

Agreed. I think we are close to reaching consensus about the restricted0
approach.
But we need to warn libraries that added restricted values for some reason and
still expect checkouts. I would not like to add a syspref on top of that.

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #10 from Marcel de Rooy m.de.r...@rijksmuseum.nl ---
(In reply to Katrin Fischer from comment #7)
 - Always allow holds? (in difference from notforloan?)

If we would not allow holds, what would still be the difference?
On the other hand, it feels like offering a feature without associated code..

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #11 from Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de ---
It does allow holds right now afaikt - so I'd like not to change that.

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Marcel de Rooy m.de.r...@rijksmuseum.nl changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||m.de.r...@rijksmuseum.nl

--- Comment #5 from Marcel de Rooy m.de.r...@rijksmuseum.nl ---
The difference between notforloan and restricted is not very clear.
Notforloan for instance could be/have been a subvalue of restricted; changing
this now is not very obvious.

If we add values to the RESTRICTED list, I would opt for better descriptions.
That restricted access now means no checkout is not very clear.

Making a difference between positive and negative values could be a compromise
similar to notforloan0 in current code.

I am only wondering now what the difference between various positive restricted
values would be? The code needs to be updated to allow.. But why exactly? If
they would do exactly the same, why are you using multiple values? Could this
be a property that actually belongs somewhere else?

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

[bugzilla-daemon]

http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Nicole C. Engard neng...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||neng...@gmail.com

--- Comment #8 from Nicole C. Engard neng...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Katrin Fischer from comment #7)
 Hi Joy and Marcel,
 
 still pondering this too - I think for me Restricted means that there are
 'limits' to its use - like only allowing it to be used on-site. While I
 would use a 'notforloan' if I didn't want a checkout. I am still wondering
 what would make the most sense here. 
 
 Suggestion:
 - Block positive values from 'normal' checkout (can add exception for
 on-site later)
 - Don't block negative values from checkout 
 - Always allow holds? (in difference from notforloan?)

I'm in agreement with a lot of you here.  I always taught libraries not to use
the restricted access values because it was so very very unclear what it did. 

That said, having it only block access with 1 value seems contrary to other
authorized values.  I like Katrin's suggestions:

- Block positive values from checkout 
- Don't block negative values from checkout 

As for holds though - I'm really not sure.  

Basically it sounds to like restricted is no different from not for loan in
this scenario. Before this I thought restricted just put a label on items that
were restricted and did nothing - while that too seems strange, it at least was
different from not for loan.

I don't now if I helped at all here ...

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #7 from Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de ---
Hi Joy and Marcel,

still pondering this too - I think for me Restricted means that there are
'limits' to its use - like only allowing it to be used on-site. While I would
use a 'notforloan' if I didn't want a checkout. I am still wondering what would
make the most sense here. 

Suggestion:
- Block positive values from 'normal' checkout (can add exception for on-site
later)
- Don't block negative values from checkout 
- Always allow holds? (in difference from notforloan?)

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #6 from Joy Nelson j...@bywatersolutions.com ---
Marcel-
You are right.  The difference between notforloan and restricted is vague.

I am all for using negative numbers in restricted as is in not for loan.

background:
The situation I ran into was for a consortium of academic libraries where each
library had a 'different reason' for something to be restricted.  They came
from another system and we struggled to find places to put all the item data
they required to be associated with an item.  They opted to simply create a few
additional 'restricted' values to contain the 'why' of restriction.  Finding
that the additional 'authorised_values' in the RESTRICTED list did not actually
restrict was an unpleasant surprise.  

If additional values are not allowed (i.e. not functional as '1') for
RESTRICTED, then it probably should not be a field that runs off an
'authorised_value' list.  Either hard code it like the 942$n suppress value or
allow additional values.  

joy


(In reply to Marcel de Rooy from comment #5)
 The difference between notforloan and restricted is not very clear.
 Notforloan for instance could be/have been a subvalue of restricted;
 changing this now is not very obvious.
 
 If we add values to the RESTRICTED list, I would opt for better
 descriptions. That restricted access now means no checkout is not very clear.
 
 Making a difference between positive and negative values could be a
 compromise similar to notforloan0 in current code.
 
 I am only wondering now what the difference between various positive
 restricted values would be? The code needs to be updated to allow.. But
 why exactly? If they would do exactly the same, why are you using multiple
 values? Could this be a property that actually belongs somewhere else?

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #3 from Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de ---
I'd not call it a bug if we never implemented it differently :)

For me restricted doesn't imply 'no checkout' - then it would be the same as
'not for loan'. I think there should be a clear difference between the two
fields, so we actually win something here. 

Be able to place on hold, but only checkout on-site maybe? 
With the difference between negative and positive values maybe?

There is also another bug about this: 
bug 10591

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Kyle M Hall k...@bywatersolutions.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Assignee|koha-b...@lists.koha-commun |k...@bywatersolutions.com
   |ity.org |

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Kyle M Hall k...@bywatersolutions.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||k...@bywatersolutions.com

--- Comment #2 from Kyle M Hall k...@bywatersolutions.com ---
(In reply to Katrin Fischer from comment #1)
 This would be a change of behaviour - could we please make it optional?
 Maybe we can specify the values in a pref that should also block
 circulation. 
 I know a library using this to indicate on-site checkouts - restricted being
 the reading room with a value != 0.

I think it would be much more reasonable to say that any value less than 0
retains the current behavior. That would bring it in line with the behavior of
other authorised values for items. To me that would be a much better solution
than yet another system preference.

It seems to me that they are taking advantage of a bug rather than a feature.
Information like that should really belong in another field, but allowing circ
of negative values seems like a good compromise to me.

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

--- Comment #4 from Joy Nelson j...@bywatersolutions.com ---
Not for loan items can be overridden at the time of checkout, if needed. 
Restricted items cannot be checked out ever (if value=1).  So the intention
seems clear from the code that if you are restricting an item, you are setting
it to be 'circulation impossible'.  

I like the option of allowing for negative numbers that could be circulated,
but positive numbers that actually do restrict.   

If you look at withdrawn, you can have multiple withdrawn values and ALL of
them will prohibit circulation.  Why allow an authorised value list to be used
for restricted if you do not allow for additional values to work?  .

joy

(In reply to Katrin Fischer from comment #3)
 I'd not call it a bug if we never implemented it differently :)
 
 For me restricted doesn't imply 'no checkout' - then it would be the same as
 'not for loan'. I think there should be a clear difference between the two
 fields, so we actually win something here. 
 
 Be able to place on hold, but only checkout on-site maybe? 
 With the difference between negative and positive values maybe?
 
 There is also another bug about this: 
 bug 10591

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|3.18|master

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||http://bugs.koha-community.
   ||org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?
   ||id=10591

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[Koha-bugs] [Bug 14370] Use Restrictions in Circulation

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http://bugs.koha-community.org/bugzilla3/show_bug.cgi?id=14370

Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de

--- Comment #1 from Katrin Fischer katrin.fisc...@bsz-bw.de ---
This would be a change of behaviour - could we please make it optional? Maybe
we can specify the values in a pref that should also block circulation. 
I know a library using this to indicate on-site checkouts - restricted being
the reading room with a value != 0.

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