Re: Typing Test
On 10/25/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Speaking of sports, how 'bout them Chargers! ;) Sounds like they'll be > playing in the Q again this weekend afterall. I'm sure the fans who bought tickets to the game and now have no home (or half a home) will be calm enough to enjoy a relaxing game. Not to mention the police assigned to traffic who will be well rested enough to do so. Doesn't it seem a little silly to have the game now? Can't they postpone a week? Or call off the game? Or not have it? -todd -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Stewart Stremler wrote: begin quoting Gregory K. Ruiz-Ade as of Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 04:52:47PM -0700: On Oct 25, 2007, at 4:05 PM, DJA wrote: You haven't been here long have you? This is KPLUG. Topic drift is a way of life here. :D A way of life? It's a sport! Speaking of sports, how 'bout them Chargers! ;) Sounds like they'll be playing in the Q again this weekend afterall. -- Tracy R Reed Read my blog at http://ultraviolet.org Key fingerprint = D4A8 4860 535C ABF8 BA97 25A6 F4F2 1829 9615 02AD Non-GPG signed mail gets read only if I can find it among the spam. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Gregory K. Ruiz-Ade as of Thu, Oct 25, 2007 at 04:52:47PM -0700: > On Oct 25, 2007, at 4:05 PM, DJA wrote: > > >You haven't been here long have you? This is KPLUG. > > Topic drift is a way of life here. :D > A way of life? It's a sport! -- Let the sports analogies begin. The devolution to car analogies begins shortly. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Gregory K. Ruiz-Ade wrote: On Oct 25, 2007, at 4:05 PM, DJA wrote: You haven't been here long have you? This is KPLUG. Topic drift is a way of life here. :D It's not just a suggestion, it's the law. -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Oct 25, 2007, at 4:05 PM, DJA wrote: You haven't been here long have you? This is KPLUG. Topic drift is a way of life here. :D Gregory -- Gregory K. Ruiz-Ade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> OpenPGP Key ID: EAF4844B keyserver: pgpkeys.mit.edu PGP.sig Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Todd Walton wrote: I fear the topic has been led astray. -todd You haven't been here long have you? This is KPLUG. -- Best Regards, ~DJA. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/24/07, Todd Walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/24/07, Bob La Quey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On 10/24/07, Todd Walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > I fear the topic has been led astray. > > > > > > -todd > > > > > > >todd discovers topic drift. > > > > Humor acknowledged. > > But it was more the direction of the drift than the drift itself that > made me comment. > > -todd So what about the direction of the drift catches your attention? BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/24/07, Bob La Quey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10/24/07, Todd Walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I fear the topic has been led astray. > > > > -todd > > > >todd discovers topic drift. > Humor acknowledged. But it was more the direction of the drift than the drift itself that made me comment. -todd -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/24/07, Todd Walton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I fear the topic has been led astray. > > -todd > todd discovers topic drift. BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/23/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Stewart Stremler wrote: > > They didn't start raising a family in/just-out-of high school? > > Indeed they did. My mom was 18 and my dad was 20 when I was born. > Similar with my grandparents on both sides. As far as I know I am the > first generation not to do so. But they were probably in a rising economy (the 60s-70s) worked hard and may well have gotten some useful education. They may well also have been significantly above average in mental and physical abilities. Believe me I do not knock hard work or education. I think that when it comes to formal education I have more of it than most. I have been working since I was 12 years old (basically a variety of construction jobs 40-50 hours/week every summer from the time I was 12 years old picking up trash on the job site in South East Texas for my dad ... trust me it was real work under a hot Texas sun until I was 20 and got my first job in a lab at the university) and believe that work has intrinsic value. I simply say that work and education not enough to guarantee success. Again read a little history of depression America. 1930-1940 say. I can assure you that a _lot_ of people found it very hard to get ahead. Not all of them were lazy and/or ignorant. I would argue that social skills are at least as important to substantial economic success as are hard work and education. Had my father sent me to a country club where I learned to play golf and hang out with other rich kids I honestly believe I would have been more successful in my business efforts ... but we play the hand we are dealt. I learned how to work with and appreciate working class people and not a lot of the social skills that go along with managing. This is not intended as a complaint but simply a recognition of my own limitations and my perceptions of reality. At any rate if you are in an environment that rewards your hard work and encourages you to educate yourself then by all means do so. But please just do not forget how lucky you are to have such a situation. That is all I ask. If you really want to understand the problem pick out someone who is dumb and ugly and follow them around. See how great their opportunities are. Then ask yourself, "Why on earth would anyone _choose_ to be dumb and ugly?" Of course, they do not choose. They just must play the hand that they are dealt even when it is a pretty lousy hand. BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
I fear the topic has been led astray.
-todd
On 10/23/07, Andrew Lentvorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Tracy R Reed wrote:
> > Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
> >> Brian wrote:
> >>> If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to
> >>> improve one's skills and/or job options?
> >>
> >> Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the
> >> mines.
> >
> > How do you think my relatives got out of the mills/mines?
>
> Clarify, please.
>
> My grandfathers, *themselves*, didn't get out of the mills or the mines.
> But they made sure that the *next* generation didn't have to work there.
>
> My grandparents accepted that *hazardous* job for the benefit of the
> next generation, not themselves. Even had my grandfathers improved
> their skills, it is unlikely they could have broken out of their
> situation without extraordinary luck.
>
> In addition, my paternal grandfather emigrated from Hungary. The really
> rotten jobs in the mill *were* a step up. That's how bad Hungary was ...
>
> If you ever get a chance to visit a museum about one of the big steel
> towns, I recommend that you go. It's especially rather eye-opening for
> a lot of people to hear the current insults about the Mexican-American
> community being hurled at their own ancestors alomst 100 years ago
> ("They don't assimilate." "They send all the money back to another
> country." "They take all the good jobs." etc.).
>
> http://www.jaha.org/DiscoveryCenter/virtualtour.html
>
> -a
>
>
> --
> KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org
> http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
>
--
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Re: Typing Test
Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
Tracy R Reed wrote:
Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
Brian wrote:
If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to
improve one's skills and/or job options?
Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the
mines.
How do you think my relatives got out of the mills/mines?
Clarify, please.
My grandfathers, *themselves*, didn't get out of the mills or the mines.
But they made sure that the *next* generation didn't have to work there.
My grandparents accepted that *hazardous* job for the benefit of the
next generation, not themselves. Even had my grandfathers improved
their skills, it is unlikely they could have broken out of their
situation without extraordinary luck.
They did good... Cheers to the Gramps'
In addition, my paternal grandfather emigrated from Hungary. The really
rotten jobs in the mill *were* a step up. That's how bad Hungary was ...
That makes you a real "Hunky"! My best friend
back in Michigan AND his wife are Hungarian and
we get a big laugh out of that. In addition, and
you are gonna love this, his dad worked for
Great Lakes Steel his whole life and built a
bucolic life for his family right in the shadows
of the "Arsenal of Democracy" in downriver
Detroit...
The old abandoned steelworks...
http://tinyurl.com/3aqhm3
And just north along the railtracks...
The bucolic part is the island just to the east
with the effective moat around it to keep almost
all the bad stuff out from the region.
If you ever get a chance to visit a museum about one of the big steel
towns, I recommend that you go. It's especially rather eye-opening for
a lot of people to hear the current insults about the Mexican-American
community being hurled at their own ancestors alomst 100 years ago
("They don't assimilate." "They send all the money back to another
country." "They take all the good jobs." etc.).
http://www.jaha.org/DiscoveryCenter/virtualtour.html
-a
rbw
--
KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org
http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Tracy R Reed wrote:
Andrew Lentvorski wrote:
Brian wrote:
If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to
improve one's skills and/or job options?
Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the
mines.
How do you think my relatives got out of the mills/mines?
Clarify, please.
My grandfathers, *themselves*, didn't get out of the mills or the mines.
But they made sure that the *next* generation didn't have to work there.
My grandparents accepted that *hazardous* job for the benefit of the
next generation, not themselves. Even had my grandfathers improved
their skills, it is unlikely they could have broken out of their
situation without extraordinary luck.
In addition, my paternal grandfather emigrated from Hungary. The really
rotten jobs in the mill *were* a step up. That's how bad Hungary was ...
If you ever get a chance to visit a museum about one of the big steel
towns, I recommend that you go. It's especially rather eye-opening for
a lot of people to hear the current insults about the Mexican-American
community being hurled at their own ancestors alomst 100 years ago
("They don't assimilate." "They send all the money back to another
country." "They take all the good jobs." etc.).
http://www.jaha.org/DiscoveryCenter/virtualtour.html
-a
--
KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org
http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Tue, October 23, 2007 12:45 pm, Tracy R Reed wrote: As far as I know I am the > first generation not to do so. > > Slacker. -ajb -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Stewart Stremler wrote: They didn't start raising a family in/just-out-of high school? Indeed they did. My mom was 18 and my dad was 20 when I was born. Similar with my grandparents on both sides. As far as I know I am the first generation not to do so. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Tracy R Reed as of Tue, Oct 23, 2007 at 10:27:06AM -0700: > Andrew Lentvorski wrote: > >Brian wrote: > >>If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to > >>improve one's skills and/or job options? > > > >Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the > >mines. > > How do you think my relatives got out of the mills/mines? They didn't start raising a family in/just-out-of high school? -- Waiting for someone to start praising the caste system. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Tuesday 23 October 2007 10:47:51 am Todd Walton wrote: > On 10/23/07, John Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > How someone types isn't material to how they do their job. You're free > > to hire who you want, but demanding that someone "touch type" is just a > > prejudice > > You need to add a qualifier there. How someone types isn't *always* > material to how they do their job. Sometimes it is. > > For example, I am not a developer. I am on help desk, answering > phones. My job is twofold: 1) talk people through fixing their > problem and 2) documenting it. I can't document a call if it takes me > long enough to describe what happened that another call comes in > before I'm done. There are varying levels of typing proficiency here, > and the quality of documentation among those who don't touch type is > significantly lower. In an attempt to speed up their process they > leave out details, they abbreviate in ways that don't turn out to be > so obvious in retrospect, and they just plain don't log some calls. > > When we're fixing the same problem two weeks later, that earlier call > is just wasted. > > -todd I also wonder if one might not fall afoul of the Disability Act. If a prospective employee without the ability to type conventionally ( say capable of using a headmounted device or can only type with two finger since that's all they have...) C. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/23/07, John Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > How someone types isn't material to how they do their job. You're free > to hire who you want, but demanding that someone "touch type" is just a > prejudice You need to add a qualifier there. How someone types isn't *always* material to how they do their job. Sometimes it is. For example, I am not a developer. I am on help desk, answering phones. My job is twofold: 1) talk people through fixing their problem and 2) documenting it. I can't document a call if it takes me long enough to describe what happened that another call comes in before I'm done. There are varying levels of typing proficiency here, and the quality of documentation among those who don't touch type is significantly lower. In an attempt to speed up their process they leave out details, they abbreviate in ways that don't turn out to be so obvious in retrospect, and they just plain don't log some calls. When we're fixing the same problem two weeks later, that earlier call is just wasted. -todd -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Andrew Lentvorski wrote: Brian wrote: If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to improve one's skills and/or job options? Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the mines. How do you think my relatives got out of the mills/mines? -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Thu, Oct 18, 2007 at 09:39:52PM -0500, Gabriel Sechan wrote: > > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:29:41 -0700 > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: kplug-list@kernel-panic.org > > Subject: Re: Typing Test> > > Paul G. Allen wrote: > >> I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand > >> Is it too late to learn? > > > Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. Besides which, > some of us just can't- it hurts my wrists like hell. +1 I really, really tried to learn how to type "properly". Just couldn't do it. I second the recommendation to look for results. How someone types isn't material to how they do their job. You're free to hire who you want, but demanding that someone "touch type" is just a prejudice, like demanding that they're a certain height or that the dress a certain way that has nothing to do with the requirements of the job. PHBs love to hire people who look really sharp in suits. How many times have you seen offices full of people who look very "professional" but can't actually do the work? How much would you like to have an office full of people who can type at 120 wpm but need to ask a basic question every two minutes? -- *** * John Oliver http://www.john-oliver.net/ * * * *** -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Stewart Stremler wrote: begin quoting Bob La Quey as of Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 11:43:51AM -0700: [snip] I have been following this thread with some amusement. I am a very bad typist. Slow, lots of errors. I have to look at the keyboard. Before the existence of personal computers I was essentially unable to use a conventional typewriter. My error rate is simply too high. Join us in #kernel-panic, JHRIV needs company. ;-) The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these underlying facts. Perhaps a keyboard with slightly larger keys might help mitigate some of that? Keyboards with larger keys for the disabled are available in various configurations, including alphabetical key layouts and brightly colored keys. -- Best Regards, ~DJA. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob La Quey) writes: > On 10/22/07, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Do you really believe that a child growing up in the streets of Tijuana > only thirty miles from here has (on average) the same opportunities > you have had? > This is undeniably true, a common Mexican will have to mature at a much faster rate, work more hours per day and work harder to earn less in a month than a Mac Donald's employee makes in a week ( in the USA ). I started working at age 10 in a wood frame factory in order to pay my education and help around the house, and by age 15 my daughter was born ( no more kids, EVER ). Most US Americans at my age are not mature enough to take care of them self's and a flipping cat let alone a family. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas wrote:
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob La Quey) writes:
The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor
hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these
underlying facts.
I have found that watching me type is disturbing to good
typists. It is rather like watching a person with severe
cerebral palsy walk across a street. It does not bother me
much. I have always dealt with the problem. But it bothers
the watcher. They often want to fix me. Sigh. They have a
hard time understanding that "meatball does not work that way."
Hi Bob,
Don't rule out practice just yet. Dyslexia and pour hand eye coordination
will make it harder yes, but in the end they will have little effect when
learning touch typing since you mustn't look at the keys or your hands
anyways. I have M.S. so my hands and arms shake quite a bit some times or
my right eye starts screwing with my depth perception and to make maters
worse I have *fat* fingers.
What really helped me out was the use of a large keyboard, with heavy
separated keys like in the days of old; sadly my work calls for use a my
laptop most of the time and the keys are quite small and stuck together.
There are several keyboards available with key guards. My wife uses one
at home, as well as an analog joystick ("Trax-sys Infogrip Joystick
Plus") rather than a mouse).
--
Best Regards,
~DJA.
--
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Re: Typing Test
On 10/22/07, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Not in environments where job options are limited. The more > > educated of my Filipino family members have all done less > > well economically than their older brothers and sisters > > who instead started small rural businesses. You may say this > > is "job option" but the fact in many places in the world > > the only "job option" is start your own shoe shine business > > and take it from there. > > > > Education != Opportunity. > > > > The point of view that you are espousing is quite dependent > > upon a particular kind of job market that is far from universal. > > > > BobLQ > > > > > > > I'll politely suggest that more credit be given to an individuals > effort. I heard Tom Lasorda state something like Success = Preparation > plus Opportunity. That more or less sums it up for me. Re your mining > reply, I had minimum wage jobs as a teen and in college; for the miner, > he/she has to decide if the risk is worth it or not. When you see > someone with something you want that you don't have, do you dislike them > for having it, or do you think about legitimate ways to obtain it? > > Brian What I and Andrew (I believe, though I certainly do not need to speak for him) are saying is that there are many environments where an individualś effort counts for very little. You may not believe this. So I will state a few simple examples. Do you really believe that a child growing up in the streets of Tijuana only thirty miles from here has (on average) the same opportunities you have had? Do you think that the millions of people who died in WWII, as an example, did so because they just did not put out enough effort? I would suggest that they found themselves in a hostile environment over which they had no control. The environment, in this case, the job market, is hugely important. There are plenty of job markets on this planet that offer very little in the way of advancement. An environment that rewards individual effort is a wonderful thing but it is far from pervasive. I would go so far as to say that from a global perspective it is actually rather uncommon. So again I assertEducation != Opportunity. Opportunity based on education depends upon a job economy that values education. It is a fact that not all economies value education. I do not dislike people who have things that I do not. That is a red herring. The fact that some have and some has a number of causes. One is effort, another is luck, both genetic and environmental. You are probably of above average intelligence. I know I am. I also know that fact was not because I tried harder. It was because of good luck in the genetic lottery. Same reason why my mom at 96 years old still has all of her teeth save one and lives alone and independently. I would suggest that you might find a small dose of history enlightening. Try reading Studs Terkel, ¨Hard Times." Try taking good look at the economic realities of many undeveloped countries. It is very hard to ¨prepare" when you are struggling every day to find enough food to eat, and often far more important, are struggling every day to feed those around you whom you care about. If you are incapable of recognizing as a fact the fact that there are others less fortunate than you are then there is probably nothing that I can do to convince you of that fact so we can just agree to disagree. Me, I recognize how very lucky I am. BobLQ PS. Don´t take this as license to be ignorant. Just don´t accept without some questions the cliches about the value of an education. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/22/07, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Not in environments where job options are limited. The more > > educated of my Filipino family members have all done less > > well economically than their older brothers and sisters > > who instead started small rural businesses. You may say this > > is "job opttion" but the fact in many places in the world > > the only "job option" is start your own shoe shine business > > and take it from there. > > > > Education != Opportunity. > > > I'll politely suggest that more credit be given to an individuals > effort. I heard Tom Lasorda state something like Success = Preparation > plus Opportunity. Dans les champs de l'observation le hasard ne favorise que les esprits préparés. In the fields of observation chance favors only the prepared mind. Louis Pasteur 1854 carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Not in environments where job options are limited. The more educated of my Filipino family members have all done less well economically than their older brothers and sisters who instead started small rural businesses. You may say this is "job opttion" but the fact in many places in the world the only "job option" is start your own shoe shine business and take it from there. Education != Opportunity. The point of view that you are espousing is quite dependent upon a particular kind of jjob market that is far from universal. BobLQ I'll politely suggest that more credit be given to an individuals effort. I heard Tom Lasorda state something like Success = Preparation plus Opportunity. That more or less sums it up for me. Re your mining reply, I had minimum wage jobs as a teen and in college; for the miner, he/she has to decide if the risk is worth it or not. When you see someone with something you want that you don't have, do you dislike them for having it, or do you think about legitimate ways to obtain it? Brian -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Bob La Quey as of Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 07:29:32PM -0700: > On 10/22/07, Stewart Stremler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. > > This is a statement that is simply often untrue. Not everyone, > especially, elsewhere (in space or time) on this planet, has > the luxury of not accepting a crap job. Of course you might > say that they can let their family go homeless or hungry. Indeed. Mortgages make prostitutes of us all. > Do you really think that most people who take "crap jobs" > do so because they have the alternative to take a much > better job? No, I don't. But the best people for a job that I'm offering would presumably be good enough so that they wouldn't have to put up with a job where they're treated like crap. When I say "crap job", I'm not referring to the task one's being asked to perform, but rather, how one is treated when performing said task. (Contrast with 'unpleasant job', which can actually be quite rewarding, and perhaps even fun, if approached with the right mindset.) When things get bad enough to where people *can* be forced to take a crap job, there's little to no incentive to give value in return. > Opportunity is not that widely distributed. This is me, not disagreeing. -- Rebellion is bred from dissatisfaction. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/22/07, Andrew Lentvorski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Brian wrote: > > If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to > > improve one's skills and/or job options? > > Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the mines. > > -a Yep. What he said. BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Brian wrote: If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to improve one's skills and/or job options? Spoken like someone who never had a relative work in the mills or the mines. -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/22/07, Brian <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bob La Quey wrote: > > On 10/22/07, Stewart Stremler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >> Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. > >> > > > > This is a statement that is simply often untrue. Not everyone, > > especially, elsewhere (in space or time) on this planet, has > > the luxury of not accepting a crap job. Of course you might > > say that they can let their family go homeless or hungry. > > > > Do you really think that most people who take "crap jobs" > > do so because they have the alternative to take a much > > better job? > > > > Opportunity is not that widely distributed. > > > > BobLQ > > > > > > > If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to > improve one's skills and/or job options? > > Brian Not in environments where job options are limited. The more educated of my Filipino family members have all done less well economically than their older brothers and sisters who instead started small rural businesses. You may say this is "job opttion" but the fact in many places in the world the only "job option" is start your own shoe shine business and take it from there. Education != Opportunity. The point of view that you are espousing is quite dependent upon a particular kind of jjob market that is far from universal. BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Bob La Quey wrote: On 10/22/07, Stewart Stremler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. This is a statement that is simply often untrue. Not everyone, especially, elsewhere (in space or time) on this planet, has the luxury of not accepting a crap job. Of course you might say that they can let their family go homeless or hungry. Do you really think that most people who take "crap jobs" do so because they have the alternative to take a much better job? Opportunity is not that widely distributed. BobLQ If the best job one can accept is "crap", isn't that motivation to improve one's skills and/or job options? Brian -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/22/07, Stewart Stremler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. This is a statement that is simply often untrue. Not everyone, especially, elsewhere (in space or time) on this planet, has the luxury of not accepting a crap job. Of course you might say that they can let their family go homeless or hungry. Do you really think that most people who take "crap jobs" do so because they have the alternative to take a much better job? Opportunity is not that widely distributed. BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Stremler) writes: > > 1. > > I wasn't talking about labels. > > I was talking about key *placement*. Important stuff when you're > trying to log in using a recovery disc... > > 2. > > Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. > > 3. > > What you think you look for and what you actually select for seem to be > two different things. > > 3.1. > > And peons aren't _happy_ -- they just don't complain. To management, at > least. > > 4. > > I would assume that /asking/ would be a pretty clear indicator that > someone wants your opinion. > > 5. > > I see it as an attitude test. > * TYPING TEST SECTION 1. true. 2. true. * JOB INTERVIEW WITH A TWIST SECTION 3. false. 3.1. false. 4. false. 5. true. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
[Re-interleaved quoting] begin quoting Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas as of Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 11:36:45PM -0700: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart > Stremler) writes: > > Did you at least get a keyboard with control, alt, and meta keys in the > > correct locations? > > Nothing, not even the status lights have labels. I wasn't talking about labels. I was talking about key *placement*. Important stuff when you're trying to log in using a recovery disc... > > And a reasonably competent interviewee will look at you and say "Are you > > nuts?" -- and quite possibly walk out on you. > > > > Schemes that drive off your best candidates are *stupid*. Unless you're > > testing for something other than skill, talent, or interest -- which makes > > sense if you're looking for someone who will put up with crap for no good > > reason. > > > > Which is, let's face it, a major characteristic desired by the less > > competent manager. > > Yes, I agree, the typing test is a bit silly. But it might work to filter > a certain type of applicant. The I don't really want a job -- crew you > guys I'm going home type person ( odd I feel like I just described my > self ). Wanting _a_ job doesn't mean you have to accept a crap job. > > Same kind of thing. You're not looking for developers... you're looking > > for peons that don't object to being punched in the kidneys. > > Well, in this particular case, I was looking for self managed > individuals. A peon would be happy doing what he is told, no questions > asked in fear of losing his job. It seems to work well in some job > markets ( not the U.S.A. by the looks of the feed back to my last > article ), the result is a few good and ambitious individuals. What you think you look for and what you actually select for seem to be two different things. And peons aren't _happy_ -- they just don't complain. To management, at least. > > Bah. That sort of code doesn't deserve a patch. > > > > Whenever I am asked to help someone figure out what's broken in their > > code, I refuse to offer feedback _beyond_ "guidelines improvements" > > until the code is decently formatted. > > > > "My code doesn't work." > > > > > > > > "Well, it sucks. Clean it up." > > > > "But what's broken?" > > > > "Your habits. Clean it up, and if you don't discover the error on your > > own, THEN come back." > > I react the same way, unless I see they do actually want my opinion. I would assume that /asking/ would be a pretty clear indicator that someone wants your opinion. > Somebody who I know doesn't want me to do the work for them. In this > particular case it is in the context of a job interview and most of the > applicants want to show off "how good they are," besides the sample code > really is useless, it is a made up part of a non-existent software > system. I see it more like an aptitude test. I see it as an attitude test. -- "How desperate are you?" Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Stremler) writes: > 1. > Did you at least get a keyboard with control, alt, and meta keys in the > correct locations? > > 2. > And a reasonably competent interviewee will look at you and say "Are you > nuts?" -- and quite possibly walk out on you. > > Schemes that drive off your best candidates are *stupid*. Unless you're > testing for something other than skill, talent, or interest -- which makes > sense if you're looking for someone who will put up with crap for no good > reason. > > Which is, let's face it, a major characteristic desired by the less > competent manager. > > 3. > Same kind of thing. You're not looking for developers... you're looking > for peons that don't object to being punched in the kidneys. > > 4. > Bah. That sort of code doesn't deserve a patch. > > Whenever I am asked to help someone figure out what's broken in their > code, I refuse to offer feedback _beyond_ "guidelines improvements" > until the code is decently formatted. > > "My code doesn't work." > > > > "Well, it sucks. Clean it up." > > "But what's broken?" > > "Your habits. Clean it up, and if you don't discover the error on your > own, THEN come back." > 1. Nothing, not even the status lights have labels. 2. Yes, I agree, the typing test is a bit silly. But it might work to filter a certain type of applicant. The I don't really want a job -- crew you guys I'm going home type person ( odd I feel like I just described my self ). 3. Well, in this particular case, I was looking for self managed individuals. A peon would be happy doing what he is told, no questions asked in fear of losing his job. It seems to work well in some job markets ( not the U.S.A. by the looks of the feed back to my last article ), the result is a few good and ambitious individuals. 4. I react the same way, unless I see they do actually want my opinion. Somebody who I know doesn't want me to do the work for them. In this particular case it is in the context of a job interview and most of the applicants want to show off "how good they are," besides the sample code really is useless, it is a made up part of a non-existent software system. I see it more like an aptitude test. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Stewart Stremler) writes: > > Depends on the quality of the keyboard. Poor-quality keyboards have the > letters silk-screened on to 'em; higher-quality keyboards embed the > glyphs right in to the plastic. > > For the former, a little steel wool ought to do the trick. For the > latter, you need either paint or labels. > Yes, a nice air paint kit will do a bang up job on the high quality keyboards. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Andrew Lentvorski as of Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 03:36:49PM -0700: [snip] > It's big-time vapor. > > This is a combination of a hard technical problem with a "really good > idea that nobody will pay for". I think you underestimate the gamer community. Or the lure of the shiny. > The major problem is that you need to run wires into *each key*. This > is completely contrary to the way keyboards are made in which all the > wiring is on the backplane and the keys are just stupid hunks of plastic > that push on a rubber sheet with nipples (they really do look like > that). When a key squishes a nipple, it makes electrical contact with > the backplane. > > OLED needs continuous power. That's going to be a non-starter. Imagine > threading ribbon cables to every single key. Shudder. hmmm. that would be neat. It would (or might) be easier to remap the control key... -- just swap cables! > Something like E-Ink that doesn't need continuous power would be a > better choice. You might be able to injection mold the key around the > electronics and only need to intermittently power the key when you need > to change it. This could possibly even be done contactless. I would expect this sort of thing to take place first, yes. > In addition, nobody will pay for the keyboard. There are *very* few > people who actually need a keyboard which reconfigures on the fly. > This, in fact, goes against the usage of a keyboard which is completely > based upon muscle memory. So, you need the keyboard until muscle memory > kicks in, and then it's useless. Imagine the iTunes Visualizer ... on the keyboard. Imagine color-coordinating your keyboard with your desktop background. The concept is sufficiently shiny that, if the technical difficulties were overcome, uses *would* be made of it. Not needful, necessarily, but 90% of what's driving the market these days isn't *needful*. It's glitz. It's the shiny. -- Why yes, I watched _Firefly_ recently. Why do you ask? Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Brad Beyenhof as of Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 02:27:55PM -0700: > Tracy R Reed wrote: > >I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on the keys was > >not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to pay more to > >get less: > > > >http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html > > Not as expensive, and you at least get the numpad (though $80 is still > too much for a keyboard): Um, no it isn't. Not for a good keyboard, anyway. > http://www.daskeyboard.com/ Hm. I note that the "clean look" didn't extend so far so as to NOT to put an advertisement on the keyboard itself. This also kind of makes clear how unbalanced "modern" keyboards really are. At least the happy hacking keyboard is suitable for lap use, if a bit narrow. Does no-only type with their keyboard in their lap anymore? -- I suppose that's restricted to just laptops. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Bob La Quey as of Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 11:43:51AM -0700: [snip] > I have been following this thread with some amusement. > I am a very bad typist. Slow, lots of errors. I have to > look at the keyboard. Before the existence of personal > computers I was essentially unable to use a conventional > typewriter. My error rate is simply too high. Join us in #kernel-panic, JHRIV needs company. ;-) > The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor > hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these > underlying facts. Perhaps a keyboard with slightly larger keys might help mitigate some of that? My typing ability varies tremendously according to the keyboard; there are some keyboards that make typing anything a miserable experience. > I do _not_ think this has had any real impact on my ability > as a developer. I suspect you might eschew documentation more than you would otherwise, but besides that yah. And given today's GUI-oriented editors and IDEs, it might well be a benefit. I've been using an IDE "in anger" for several months now, and _the_ most annoying thing is when the IDE's "helpful" dialogs steal focus... leading to all manner of amusing and not-so-amusing errors. Cleaning up after such errors tends to destroy whatever benefit I gain from being a touch-typist; turning off all of the "nifty" features in the IDE tends to negate most of the benefit of using an IDE. > It does impact my style of interaction > with a computer. I sit very close to the screen so my eyes > can be equidistant from the key board and the screen and > bounce my eye focus back and forth between the screen and > the keyboard. Won't you be happy when mirrorshades reach the public, eh? > I suspect that a program could be written that would train > on my initial input and correct at least 90% of my errors > on the fly. This program would be a trainable spell checker > of sorts. I wonder if such exists. Certainly there is a > pattern in my errors. For instance, I commonly hit two keys > at once because of bad aim. My fingers twitch so if I point > at say "y" I may get "uy" Yup. Bigger keys. :) > I have found that watching me type is disturbing to good > typists. It is rather like watching a person with severe > cerebral palsy walk across a street. It does not bother me > much. I have always dealt with the problem. But it bothers > the watcher. Heh. Yup. I've had to learn to sit on my hands, sometimes. > They often want to fix me. Sigh. They have a > hard time understanding that "meatball does not work that way." Well, duh. Our kind of folks want to "fix" every problem, even if it isn't really a problem. Again, learning to sit on one's hands is hard. -- If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If it's working, it ain't broke. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Tracy R Reed as of Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 10:14:18PM -0700: [snip] > How did you polish the keyboard? I have considered doing this. I think a > keyboard with no letters on the keys would make a nice conversation > piece if nothing else. Keeping people away from my terminal would be a > nice side effect. I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on > the keys was not so incredibly expensive. Depends on the quality of the keyboard. Poor-quality keyboards have the letters silk-screened on to 'em; higher-quality keyboards embed the glyphs right in to the plastic. For the former, a little steel wool ought to do the trick. For the latter, you need either paint or labels. -- Labels, alas, need replacing, and are more difficult to keep clean. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
begin quoting Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas as of Sat, Oct 20, 2007 at 03:32:20PM -0700: [snip] > I use polished keyboards on all my systems, this forces my daughter to > type without looking at the key tags and keeps people away from my > terminals. Did you at least get a keyboard with control, alt, and meta keys in the correct locations? >You could polish the tags off a keyboard so that the next time > you interview somebody you could ask them to write a script, app, essay or > e-mail on the system using the blank keyboard. This will help you determine > if they consentrate on the 'keys' or the 'task', depending on what you > asked then to write you could also get some much needed insight on how they > communicate if at all. And a reasonably competent interviewee will look at you and say "Are you nuts?" -- and quite possibly walk out on you. Schemes that drive off your best candidates are *stupid*. Unless you're testing for something other than skill, talent, or interest -- which makes sense if you're looking for someone who will put up with crap for no good reason. Which is, let's face it, a major characteristic desired by the less competent manager. > OT: When I interview somebody for a development job, I show them some code > that contains a few errors and useless bits of code hidden inside. I ask > them to review the code and e-mail me back with details on how the coding > guideline for the company can be improved ( clearly a trap ). Same kind of thing. You're not looking for developers... you're looking for peons that don't object to being punched in the kidneys. > Most developers just submit some wacky guideline improvements ( I discard > them quickly as they did the code ), but a few developers actually spot > the 'trap'; they do so by trying to understand the code. They find the > errors and try to fix them they might also notice that code contains some > absolutely redundant or poorly implemented sections and submit patches > along with a few guideline improvements. Bah. That sort of code doesn't deserve a patch. Whenever I am asked to help someone figure out what's broken in their code, I refuse to offer feedback _beyond_ "guidelines improvements" until the code is decently formatted. "My code doesn't work." "Well, it sucks. Clean it up." "But what's broken?" "Your habits. Clean it up, and if you don't discover the error on your own, THEN come back." -- Life's too short to put up with poor grammar, atrocious spelling, or trash code. Stewart Stremler -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Tracy R Reed wrote: Nicholas Wheeler wrote: You could always get an optimus keyboard. Then you could mess with their head big time. This is a brilliant idea. Great for learning Dvorak, having a customized vi/emacs keyboard, etc. If they could integrate it with the desktop so that the displays on the keycaps changed according to what window had focus it would be even better. Hopefully the price gets down to a reasonable level. I have seen this hyped for a long time but still never actually seen one for sale so I am a little bit afraid that it will just be vaporware. It's big-time vapor. This is a combination of a hard technical problem with a "really good idea that nobody will pay for". The major problem is that you need to run wires into *each key*. This is completely contrary to the way keyboards are made in which all the wiring is on the backplane and the keys are just stupid hunks of plastic that push on a rubber sheet with nipples (they really do look like that). When a key squishes a nipple, it makes electrical contact with the backplane. OLED needs continuous power. That's going to be a non-starter. Imagine threading ribbon cables to every single key. Shudder. Something like E-Ink that doesn't need continuous power would be a better choice. You might be able to injection mold the key around the electronics and only need to intermittently power the key when you need to change it. This could possibly even be done contactless. In addition, nobody will pay for the keyboard. There are *very* few people who actually need a keyboard which reconfigures on the fly. This, in fact, goes against the usage of a keyboard which is completely based upon muscle memory. So, you need the keyboard until muscle memory kicks in, and then it's useless. -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/21/07, Brad Beyenhof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Tracy R Reed wrote: > > I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on the keys was > > not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to pay more to > > get less: > > > > http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html > > Not as expensive, and you at least get the numpad (though $80 is still > too much for a keyboard): > > http://www.daskeyboard.com/ > I think that would be fine if keyboard manufacturers could standardize on the position of infrequently used keys. Like ~` and |\ if they are even paired that way. Also have to standardize on the contents of the numeric pad when not in numeric mode. Then there are also shift-lock and control and escape and alt, all of which have a tendency to wander around. To say nothing of "windows keys" which Das Keyboard is proud to have. carl -- carl lowenstein marine physical lab u.c. san diego [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Tracy R Reed wrote: I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on the keys was not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to pay more to get less: http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html Not as expensive, and you at least get the numpad (though $80 is still too much for a keyboard): http://www.daskeyboard.com/ -- Brad Beyenhof Systems Administrator UC San Diego, Laboratory of Cognitive Imaging -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/21/07, Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob La Quey) writes: > > > > The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor > > hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these > > underlying facts. > > > > > > > > I have found that watching me type is disturbing to good > > typists. It is rather like watching a person with severe > > cerebral palsy walk across a street. It does not bother me > > much. I have always dealt with the problem. But it bothers > > the watcher. They often want to fix me. Sigh. They have a > > hard time understanding that "meatball does not work that way." > > > > Hi Bob, > > Don't rule out practice just yet. Dyslexia and pour hand eye coordination > will make it harder yes, but in the end they will have little effect when > learning touch typing since you mustn't look at the keys or your hands > anyways. I have M.S. so my hands and arms shake quite a bit some times or > my right eye starts screwing with my depth perception and to make maters > worse I have *fat* fingers. > > What really helped me out was the use of a large keyboard, with heavy > separated keys like in the days of old; sadly my work calls for use a my > laptop most of the time and the keys are quite small and stuck together. > > -- > Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Hi Gamaral, I don't have much motivation to practice. I am 66 years old with more than enough to do. I am also skeptical of the value. As it is I just ignore it sicne I have been adapted to the problem for almost 50 years now :) I suspect that if I wanted to focus on the issue that I would be better off writing the program that I described. It would also help more than just me so the use of my time would be leveraged. I suppose a starting point would be Aspell http://freshmeat.net/projects/aspell/ One would then add user based training so that Aspell got better at guessing. It should also be possible to add a "fat fingers" hueristic as well based on the layout of the keyboard, i.e. "y"->"yu" | "uy" is more likely than "y"->"yi" etc. I have no idea how far this could be carried or how well it would work. I am not sure that dsylexia is the correct term for my problem. I can see letters in the correct order, but they come out my fingers pretty badly scrambled. I have no problem reading, just writing. My hand writing is atrocious, my printing not too bad. So it goes, BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Bob La Quey) writes: > > The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor > hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these > underlying facts. > > > > I have found that watching me type is disturbing to good > typists. It is rather like watching a person with severe > cerebral palsy walk across a street. It does not bother me > much. I have always dealt with the problem. But it bothers > the watcher. They often want to fix me. Sigh. They have a > hard time understanding that "meatball does not work that way." > Hi Bob, Don't rule out practice just yet. Dyslexia and pour hand eye coordination will make it harder yes, but in the end they will have little effect when learning touch typing since you mustn't look at the keys or your hands anyways. I have M.S. so my hands and arms shake quite a bit some times or my right eye starts screwing with my depth perception and to make maters worse I have *fat* fingers. What really helped me out was the use of a large keyboard, with heavy separated keys like in the days of old; sadly my work calls for use a my laptop most of the time and the keys are quite small and stuck together. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/21/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Nicholas Wheeler wrote: > > You could always get an optimus keyboard. Then you could mess with > > their head big time. > > This is a brilliant idea. Great for learning Dvorak, having a customized > vi/emacs keyboard, etc. If they could integrate it with the desktop so > that the displays on the keycaps changed according to what window had > focus it would be even better. Hopefully the price gets down to a > reasonable level. I have seen this hyped for a long time but still never > actually seen one for sale so I am a little bit afraid that it will just > be vaporware. > > -- > Tracy R Reed I have been following this thread with some amusement. I am a very bad typist. Slow, lots of errors. I have to look at the keyboard. Before the existence of personal computers I was essentially unable to use a conventional typewriter. My error rate is simply too high. The reason for this is a combination of dyslexia and poor hand-eye coordination. No amount of training will fix these underlying facts. I do _not_ think this has had any real impact on my ability as a developer. It does impact my style of interaction with a computer. I sit very close to the screen so my eyes can be equidistant from the key board and the screen and bounce my eye focus back and forth between the screen and the keyboard. I suspect that a program could be written that would train on my initial input and correct at least 90% of my errors on the fly. This program would be a trainable spell checker of sorts. I wonder if such exists. Certainly there is a pattern in my errors. For instance, I commonly hit two keys at once because of bad aim. My fingers twitch so if I point at say "y" I may get "uy" I have found that watching me type is disturbing to good typists. It is rather like watching a person with severe cerebral palsy walk across a street. It does not bother me much. I have always dealt with the problem. But it bothers the watcher. They often want to fix me. Sigh. They have a hard time understanding that "meatball does not work that way." So it goes, BobLQ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Nicholas Wheeler wrote: You could always get an optimus keyboard. Then you could mess with their head big time. This is a brilliant idea. Great for learning Dvorak, having a customized vi/emacs keyboard, etc. If they could integrate it with the desktop so that the displays on the keycaps changed according to what window had focus it would be even better. Hopefully the price gets down to a reasonable level. I have seen this hyped for a long time but still never actually seen one for sale so I am a little bit afraid that it will just be vaporware. -- Tracy R Reed Read my blog at http://ultraviolet.org Key fingerprint = D4A8 4860 535C ABF8 BA97 25A6 F4F2 1829 9615 02AD Non-GPG signed mail gets read only if I can find it among the spam. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nicholas Wheeler) writes: > You could always get an optimus keyboard. Then you could mess with > their head big time. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_keyboard > > -- Nicholas That's brilliant! make all the keys letters change position when ever he presses a key! -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
You could always get an optimus keyboard. Then you could mess with their head big time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimus_keyboard -- Nicholas On 10/21/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas wrote: > > I use polished keyboards on all my systems, this forces my daughter to > > type without looking at the key tags and keeps people away from my > > How did you polish the keyboard? I have considered doing this. I think a > keyboard with no letters on the keys would make a nice conversation > piece if nothing else. Keeping people away from my terminal would be a > nice side effect. I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on > the keys was not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to > pay more to get less: > > http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html > > -- > Tracy R Reed Read my blog at http://ultraviolet.org > Key fingerprint = D4A8 4860 535C ABF8 BA97 25A6 F4F2 1829 9615 02AD > Non-GPG signed mail gets read only if I can find it among the spam. > > > -- > KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org > http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tracy R Reed) writes: > h the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on > the keys was not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to > pay more to get less: Actually with brass polish and some good old fashion elbow grease you to can get a nice polished keyboard for under $6 USD. I buy "BRASO" (TM) the same stuff you use to polish CD's, Plastic, Glass, Metal, etc. You can also get some paint remover and apply it to the silk screen on the keys, but that might stain the plastic ( if they are plastic ) keys. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas wrote: I use polished keyboards on all my systems, this forces my daughter to type without looking at the key tags and keeps people away from my How did you polish the keyboard? I have considered doing this. I think a keyboard with no letters on the keys would make a nice conversation piece if nothing else. Keeping people away from my terminal would be a nice side effect. I wish the "Happy Hacking Keyboard" with no letters on the keys was not so incredibly expensive. It's funny how you have to pay more to get less: http://pfuca-store.stores.yahoo.net/haphackeyser.html -- Tracy R Reed Read my blog at http://ultraviolet.org Key fingerprint = D4A8 4860 535C ABF8 BA97 25A6 F4F2 1829 9615 02AD Non-GPG signed mail gets read only if I can find it among the spam. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Todd Walton) writes: > There's nothing that pisses me off more than a trap. Who'd work for > an employer that sets traps for its employees? If you'd just ask me > I'd tell you anything you'd want to know. Just ask me. "Traps" are > based on assumptions that may not be valid. If youi come right out > and ask an honest question, there are no assumptions to foul up > things. > > Besides... once you hire the person are you going to be expecting them > to just happen to find things with the code? Or are you going to > directly ask them to please find ways of improving this code? > > -todd Hi Todd, Well that will be there job in this particular case, as I said in my prior response to Andrew, the company hires good developers to work on different FLOSS projects so they look for people with the initiative and self leadership, they will be required to do constant bug hunting and feature development, they don't spend much money on bosses or leaders per say so it's more of a direct yourself approach, you can't have somebody that will need to have their had held or a boss over their shoulder to work properly now can you. Besides, based on my personal experience, most developers I hired before slacked off 80% of the time, if they are not directly managed by a project manager or leader, I know because I used to be one of them. :-) Now to put a bandaid over this whole comment, It was meant as a comment and does in no way say it should be used in every situation, and yes my anarchist and anti-social background likes to mess with people, I am just evil some times. :-( Sorry. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/20/07, Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > OT: When I interview somebody for a development job, I show them some code > that contains a few errors and useless bits of code hidden inside. I ask > them to review the code and e-mail me back with details on how the coding > guideline for the company can be improved ( clearly a trap ). There's nothing that pisses me off more than a trap. Who'd work for an employer that sets traps for its employees? If you'd just ask me I'd tell you anything you'd want to know. Just ask me. "Traps" are based on assumptions that may not be valid. If youi come right out and ask an honest question, there are no assumptions to foul up things. Besides... once you hire the person are you going to be expecting them to just happen to find things with the code? Or are you going to directly ask them to please find ways of improving this code? -todd -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Andrew Lentvorski) writes: > > This is counterproductive. > > Asking a candidate to provide negative feedback is just a nasty > interview trick. > > Candidates who ignore the code are fairly astute. What if the > interviewer wrote the code? How will he react to negative criticism? > What about the policies? Who wrote those? How immutable are those? > > Candidates who criticize the code and guidelines without concern are > likely to do so to co-workers and can make a really negative environment. > > So, rather than creating a useful question, you have actually managed to > create a *negative* correlation question where you are selecting > *against* the best candidates (good coders who recognize the issues but > also pay attention to the human side of things, too). > > You need to be a bit more cognizant of your power over interview > candidates. Keep your questions on neutral political ground to get the > best information from the candidate. > > I personally find that the best solution to this is to ask a candidate, > "Send me 1000 lines of your best code. Any language, any project." > > Any decent developer has 1000 lines of some project laying around to > send in. Then I'll ask some questions about it in the interview. > > This cleans out people you don't want *very* quickly. I agree with you completely, I know it is a nasty trick hence the use of the term 'trap', but that is the way I weed out coders who are pro-active perfectionists, those who are not afraid to tell me what they think. I was told by one of our new employees that he feared criticising the code might cost him the job, but he did it anyway because he thought that was the right thing to do ( I tell them that they should treat the sample code as if it was the crown jewels and of they see anything wrong to contact me, few do ). I take development very seriously and I want those who I select do the same, they know people *will* look at *their* code and that they need to keep a high standard of quality at all times. The work environment is quite calm if not happy, since most feel motivated by the fact that they are surrounded by similar people and the quality control stays high since we split them off into Scrum groups. I did try the "send me your code" approach before for another company, but I found it a bit hard to get some real data out of it since most of the code they send in has been checked, cleaned and rechecked time and time again for the soul purpose an interview, I am not interested in just how well they know *x*, *y* or *z* language, but more in how much attention to detail they put on something they have never seen before and if they will speak up when the time comes. But that is the way *I* filter out people, it should only be used under certain circumstances and let me point out that I don't do this for a living but I have been hired to filter out applicants for IT jobs by my own clients :-) * The funny thing is that the contract they sign in order to apply for the job and see the sample code tells them *everything* even a URL where they can download my written apology, I do show them after they get hired. -- Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral) Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/ -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas wrote: OT: When I interview somebody for a development job, I show them some code that contains a few errors and useless bits of code hidden inside. I ask them to review the code and e-mail me back with details on how the coding guideline for the company can be improved ( clearly a trap ). This is counterproductive. Asking a candidate to provide negative feedback is just a nasty interview trick. Candidates who ignore the code are fairly astute. What if the interviewer wrote the code? How will he react to negative criticism? What about the policies? Who wrote those? How immutable are those? Candidates who criticize the code and guidelines without concern are likely to do so to co-workers and can make a really negative environment. So, rather than creating a useful question, you have actually managed to create a *negative* correlation question where you are selecting *against* the best candidates (good coders who recognize the issues but also pay attention to the human side of things, too). You need to be a bit more cognizant of your power over interview candidates. Keep your questions on neutral political ground to get the best information from the candidate. Most developers just submit some wacky guideline improvements ( I discard them quickly as they did the code ), but a few developers actually spot the 'trap'; they do so by trying to understand the code. I personally find that the best solution to this is to ask a candidate, "Send me 1000 lines of your best code. Any language, any project." Any decent developer has 1000 lines of some project laying around to send in. Then I'll ask some questions about it in the interview. This cleans out people you don't want *very* quickly. -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tracy R
Reed) writes:
>
> I recently experienced a senior level IT guy who was a hunt and pecker.
> This made me think: Perhaps we should administer a typing test? Would
> that be offensive? Can you really be an experienced
> coder/sysadmin/whatever and not know how to type without looking at the
> keyboard? People who don't know how to type are the ones who never like
> to communicate via email or IM but instead always want to call you or
> stop by or whatever. They also can't work from home as virtual employees
> or effectively utilize a wiki to document their work etc.
>
I know a few fast 'pecker' developers but none of then need to see the
keyboard while typing ('hunt').
I use polished keyboards on all my systems, this forces my daughter to
type without looking at the key tags and keeps people away from my
terminals. You could polish the tags off a keyboard so that the next time
you interview somebody you could ask them to write a script, app, essay or
e-mail on the system using the blank keyboard. This will help you determine
if they consentrate on the 'keys' or the 'task', depending on what you
asked then to write you could also get some much needed insight on how they
communicate if at all.
OT: When I interview somebody for a development job, I show them some code
that contains a few errors and useless bits of code hidden inside. I ask
them to review the code and e-mail me back with details on how the coding
guideline for the company can be improved ( clearly a trap ).
Most developers just submit some wacky guideline improvements ( I discard
them quickly as they did the code ), but a few developers actually spot
the 'trap'; they do so by trying to understand the code. They find the
errors and try to fix them they might also notice that code contains some
absolutely redundant or poorly implemented sections and submit patches
along with a few guideline improvements.
--
Guillermo Antonio Amaral Bastidas (gamaral)
Free/Libre/Open-Source Software Advocate & KDE Developer
http://blog.guillermoamaral.com/
--
KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org
http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test (Tux typing game)
> > > > > Is it too late to learn? > > Yes. I'm too damned lazy. ;) > There is that typing game in various Linux distributions, I can't remember the name of it...Falling letters, you have to type them before they disappear. If nothing else, it's a fun little typing game. I think i actually made it to the end once.. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Brad Beyenhof wrote: I taught myself hjkl pretty easily by playing lots of Nethack at the console... :) Yeah, the lack of diagonal motion in vi really sucks ... -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
RE: Typing Test
On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 21:39 -0500, Gabriel Sechan wrote: > > Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:29:41 -0700 > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > To: kplug-list@kernel-panic.org > > Subject: Re: Typing Test> > > Paul G. Allen wrote: > >> I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand > >> Is it too late to learn? > > > Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. Besides which, > some of us just can't- it hurts my wrists like hell. > > > Do you spend all day typing? I spend at least 10 minutes thinking for every > minute typing, whether thats designing, debugging, or other. Trust me, > typing speed is not a limiting factor unless you're a secretary or a data > entry clerk. > At times I write a *lot* of technical documentation, so during those times I will spend all day typing. I also write a lot of e-mail. At other times I'm spending a lot of time writing code without many pauses. The way I code something is I spend a lot of time up front thinking it through and getting it figured out in my head (and sometimes parts of it are coded in my head). Then I'll sit down and code it, a module at a time, with modules varying in size. Since you mention your wrists hurting, maybe the way I type is better for my wrists, because then rarely ever hurt when I'm typing. It's only when I use a standard mouse for long periods that my right wrist will start to bug me (which is why I had the company buy me an Evoluent VerticalMouse 3). It could be that learning to type "the right way" would not allow me to type any faster. PGA -- Paul G. Allen BSIT/SE Owner/Sr. Engineer Random Logic Consulting www.randomlogic.com -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/19/2007 09:24 AM, Paul G. Allen wrote: On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 19:29 -0700, Tracy R Reed wrote: Paul G. Allen wrote: I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand Is it too late to learn? Yes. I'm too damned lazy. ;) Seriously though, I've thought about it, but I've always got something else to do. Same here; I type much as you described before, and I usually have to look at the keyboard, but my average speed is upwards of 50wpm. I've attempted to learn how to type "for real," but I've been doing it this way for so long that an attempt to change my system invariably slows me down and frustrates me. I'm sure I could end up faster if I persisted with a more efficient method, but it's the initial slowdown that makes things difficult. I don't like hjkl simply because I've become accustomed to using the arrow keys. I taught myself hjkl pretty easily by playing lots of Nethack at the console... :) -- Brad Beyenhof Systems Administrator UC San Diego, Laboratory of Cognitive Imaging -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 19:29 -0700, Tracy R Reed wrote: > Paul G. Allen wrote: > > I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand > > Is it too late to learn? Yes. I'm too damned lazy. ;) Seriously though, I've thought about it, but I've always got something else to do. > > Which editor do you use and how does your lack of home row usage affect > your editor preference? I guess hjkl cursor movement doesn't buy you > anything? The editor depends upon what I'm doing, where I'm at (remote console or local, command line or GUI). I don't like hjkl simply because I've become accustomed to using the arrow keys. When I'm at a console where I must use hjkl, I have to think about it first before I can start using them. > > > I guess the bottom line is that as long as the person can get the job > > done fast enough, what's the difference how it's accomplished? > > Most companies consider time to be money. If you are going to require > twice as much time as the guy who knows how to type isn't that a > disincentive to hire you? Fortunately coding tends to involve more time > spent thinking than typing so the difference is not as pronounced as if > you were a secretary. > Which is why I often wish I could type faster. I can think through the problem and figure out how to code it, and then when it comes time to type it all in, I'm not fast enough to make myself happy. Then again, my ideal would be using something like IBM's Voice Type (which I had back in my OS/2 days) so that I could just speak the code, instead of type it. So, this brings us back to: give the candidate a task to accomplish and see how long it takes them. Maybe something like writing a script to do something, which would involve thinking through the problem, solving it, and them typing out the solution. PGA -- Paul G. Allen BSIT/SE Owner/Sr. Engineer Random Logic Consulting www.randomlogic.com -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
RE: Typing Test
> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:30:46 -0500 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: kplug-list@kernel-panic.org > Subject: Re: Typing Test >> On 10/18/07, Gabriel Sechan wrote: >> Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. > > Pshaw! Whatever else you say about hunt-and-peck vs. touch typing, I > really think you can't say hunt-and-pecking has the speed potential of > touch typing. There's different styles of hunt and peck. For example, I know where all the keys on the keyboard are. So I don't peck- I just don't do the home row and I don't use all 5 fingers (I generally use 4- my index and middle on each hand, my thumb on my right for spacebar, and my pinkie for shift). And I type over 50 wpm. True, if you don't know the key locations by heart you won't be able to type at any decent speed, but so long as you have that even 2 finger typing can be pretty fast. Gabe _ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
As far as system administration is concerned, touch typing fast doesn't help you too, too much...but it impresses people around you by far. With tab auto-completion in bash, you don't really need to type all that fast, anyways. Also, when I'm writing an essay ... I just can't possibly think as fast as I can type, the only scenario when I'm capable of typing my max typing speed is when I'm copying a paper verbatim. Coding/administrating/writing essays/research papers all are done at less than 120wpm. Copying is fast. -- Nick, 120wpm. On 10/19/07, Alan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Fri, October 19, 2007 6:30 am, Todd Walton wrote: > > On 10/18/07, Gabriel Sechan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. > > > > Pshaw! Whatever else you say about hunt-and-peck vs. touch typing, I > > really think you can't say hunt-and-pecking has the speed potential of > > touch typing. > > > > -todd, 60wpm > > -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Fri, October 19, 2007 6:30 am, Todd Walton wrote: > On 10/18/07, Gabriel Sechan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. > > Pshaw! Whatever else you say about hunt-and-peck vs. touch typing, I > really think you can't say hunt-and-pecking has the speed potential of > touch typing. > > -todd, 60wpm > I think he was saying that two/three-fingered typing can be almost as fast as touch typing, not hunt-and-peck. For instance, I don't touch type in the classical fashion, since I never took a typing class, but my modified 3 fingers on one hand, 4 fingers on the left is quick enough for just about everything I do. Would I fail Tracy's typing test? I dunno. I can't do that neat, "type one thing on the screen while looking at someone else standing in your office" trick that most accomplished touch typists seem to accomplish. But you know, my former boss was probably in the 90 wpm range, but he never actually produced an email that made any sense. Sure produced a lot of them though. Sometimes speed isn't an asset. heh. -ajb -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/18/07, Gabriel Sechan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. Pshaw! Whatever else you say about hunt-and-peck vs. touch typing, I really think you can't say hunt-and-pecking has the speed potential of touch typing. -todd, 60wpm -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On 10/18/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I recently experienced a senior level IT guy who was a hunt and pecker. > This made me think: Perhaps we should administer a typing test? Would > that be offensive? Can you really be an experienced > coder/sysadmin/whatever and not know how to type without looking at the > keyboard? I went into the Brentanos in Seattle about sixteen years ago and was surprised to find a line going out the door and halfway down the block. Inside, Harlan Ellison was promoting one of his books, and was challenging the people in the line to give him a subject rather than autographing books. He would then write a short story based on or around that subject. I watched, facsinated. The stories were anywhere from a half a page to a page and a half long, and he cranked out about seven in the fifteen minutes or so I was in the store. There were little groups gathered reading several others to each other. The line was so long that I didn't have time to stay and get one for myself, but I noticed three thnigs: 1. Harlan Ellison was using an Olympia manual typwriter. 2. Harlan Ellison is a two-finger typist. 3. None of the stort pages I saw(6) had any spelling or syntax errors. Those stories are surely collectors items now. If an experienced writer of prose can do that without knowing how to type, I would bet that an experienced coder could do it too. Robert Donovan -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Tracy, On 10/18/07, Tracy R Reed <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I recently experienced a senior level IT guy who was a hunt and pecker. > This made me think: Perhaps we should administer a typing test? No. When I'm coding, my typing speed drops way down compared to typing this email. I tend to type more in spurts, then sit back and reflect on what I just did, or end up compiling, etc. What I've seen in coders who are also fast typists, they tend to make more typos, then have to delete things, then get it correct. I don't know how you could accurately test a person who's going to be typing constructs, function calls and the like. Would > that be offensive? Can you really be an experienced > coder/sysadmin/whatever and not know how to type without looking at the > keyboard? Possibly offensive to some, but I think you're mostly wasting time. There far more to coding than raw typing speed. People who don't know how to type are the ones who never like > to communicate via email or IM but instead always want to call you or > stop by or whatever. They also can't work from home as virtual employees > or effectively utilize a wiki to document their work etc. This is true, and it's a function of the job description. If a candidate can't use the tools provided, then they shouldn't be hired. So, during your interviews, why not test them out on IM, email and creating documentation. If you want to see this kind of interviewing personally, apply for an engineering job at MySQL. Best place I've interviewed, I'm hoping they write a book on how to interview support engineers. In my case, I could never learn to type on a QWERTY style keyboard. I tried in high school, military and finally college. Could never master that thing faster than 20WPM. I decided to give Dvorak layout a try, lo and behold I could finally type faster than 30 WPM! So, all my system have Dvorak layouts configured. When I'm coding, my typing speed isn't that fast in comparison, but for other typing, I'm pretty normal. Now, the odd thing is, I can switch to QWERTY in a few mins. I still type slow compared to Dvorak, but I can do it when I run into a machine that doesn't have that configured. The one thing I had to give up is using VIM. I learned that on QWERTY, and I just can't make the switch to Dvorak. I tried for many years, can't do it. Muscle memory is pretty powerful, and I can't get hjkl to the Dvorak keyboard. I've moved on to Eclipse, and have pretty much not looked back. With completion, I can code better than I could before - meaning, as far as speed goes. Just my $.02. All but the period is the same on QWERTY! -- Mark Schoonover, CMDBA http://marksitblog.blogspot.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cell: 619-368-0099 Give me ambiguity, or give me something else! --kelsey hudson -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
RE: Typing Test
> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:29:41 -0700 > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: kplug-list@kernel-panic.org > Subject: Re: Typing Test> > Paul G. Allen wrote: >> I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand >> Is it too late to learn? Why would you want to? It really isn't that much faster. Besides which, some of us just can't- it hurts my wrists like hell. >> Which editor do you use and how does your lack of home row usage affect > your editor preference? I guess hjkl cursor movement doesn't buy you > anything?>>> I guess the bottom line is that as long as the person can get > the job >> done fast enough, what's the difference how it's accomplished? >> Most companies consider time to be money. If you are going to require > twice as much time as the guy who knows how to type isn't that a > disincentive to hire you? Fortunately coding tends to involve more time > spent thinking than typing so the difference is not as pronounced as if > you were a secretary. Do you spend all day typing? I spend at least 10 minutes thinking for every minute typing, whether thats designing, debugging, or other. Trust me, typing speed is not a limiting factor unless you're a secretary or a data entry clerk. Gabe _ Windows Live Hotmail and Microsoft Office Outlook – together at last. Get it now. http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/outlook/HA102225181033.aspx?pid=CL100626971033 -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Paul G. Allen wrote: I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand Is it too late to learn? Which editor do you use and how does your lack of home row usage affect your editor preference? I guess hjkl cursor movement doesn't buy you anything? I guess the bottom line is that as long as the person can get the job done fast enough, what's the difference how it's accomplished? Most companies consider time to be money. If you are going to require twice as much time as the guy who knows how to type isn't that a disincentive to hire you? Fortunately coding tends to involve more time spent thinking than typing so the difference is not as pronounced as if you were a secretary. -- Tracy R Reed Read my blog at http://ultraviolet.org Key fingerprint = D4A8 4860 535C ABF8 BA97 25A6 F4F2 1829 9615 02AD Non-GPG signed mail gets read only if I can find it among the spam. -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
Tracy R Reed wrote: I recently experienced a senior level IT guy who was a hunt and pecker. This made me think: Perhaps we should administer a typing test? Yuck. Why aren't you putting a candidate in front of a real machine and giving him a task instead? You'll get far more information. Set him up on a clean install of Centos, Fedora, OpenSuse, distro>, etc. and tell him to install/fix/configure something. With virtualization, setting this up borders on trivial. -a -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
Re: Typing Test
On Thu, 2007-10-18 at 17:12 -0700, Tracy R Reed wrote: > I recently experienced a senior level IT guy who was a hunt and pecker. > This made me think: Perhaps we should administer a typing test? Would > that be offensive? Can you really be an experienced > coder/sysadmin/whatever and not know how to type without looking at the > keyboard? People who don't know how to type are the ones who never like > to communicate via email or IM but instead always want to call you or > stop by or whatever. They also can't work from home as virtual employees > or effectively utilize a wiki to document their work etc. > I never learned to type properly. I type with two fingers on each hand and have to look at the keyboard. People tell me I type fairly fast and I do OK when coding. I'd like to be able to type faster, but I'm not exactly slow. I also prefer IM or e-mail over a phone call partly because I can solidify my thoughts when I'm typing, and partly because there is a written record of the conversation. I guess the bottom line is that as long as the person can get the job done fast enough, what's the difference how it's accomplished? PGA -- Paul G. Allen BSIT/SE Owner/Sr. Engineer Random Logic Consulting www.randomlogic.com -- KPLUG-List@kernel-panic.org http://www.kernel-panic.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/kplug-list
