KR> Drag???? Whoa!

[Carl Dow via KRnet]

The egos, the drama, the over reactions, the perfectionism, WOW 
I am sick, Mr. Langford, get over yourself.? Life is short? Just stop and 
be likeable it is enough to make me puke!? Your plane is awesome, your 
knowledge and experience are beyond reproach, but my dear sir you take yourself 
waay too seriously as do others on this site.? No one is better than 
any other in this world, no one has the right to belittle others, especially 
for trivialities.? Think what you will of this email, slam me as you do others, 
but this is truly for your own good and of those around you.? It is well 
intentioned as I have nothing to gain or lose from this.? I enjoy the vast 
amount of excellent information, but the truth is the egos and attitudes are a 
bit much.? We all do well in taking a long look at ourselves with a neutral 
view to see ourselves as others perceive us.? If this means nothing to you, 
then the loss is your own.

Sincerely,
Carl Edward Dow
On Sunday, May 11, 2014 12:51 AM, Doran Jaffas via KRnet  wrote:

? ?  I DID NOT MEAN TO IMPLY THAT ALL MODS ARE BAD.
? ?  I MAY END UP ADDING A BELLY FLAP AS WELL. I HAVE A SIMPLE LINKAGE
DESIGNED THAT WILL BE EASY TO INSTALL.
? ? ? SOMETIMES THOUGH THE LESS EXPERIENCED COULD GET THE WRONG IDEA FROM
SOME OF US THAT DO HAVE EXPERIENCE.
? ? ? SIGNING OFF. FEEL FREE TO CONTACT ME PERSONALLY BUT I FEEL TOO MUCH
HEAT IS BEING GIVEN PUBLICLY.
? ?  COUNTER IDEAS AND CORRECTIVE WORDS GIVEN TO ASSIST ARE ONE THING. OPEN
REBUKE IS ANOTHER.
? ? ? THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD AND KNOWLEDGEABLE FOLKS HERE.
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  Doran
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  N186RC
? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? .kr2owner at gmail.com
On May 9, 2014 2:43 PM, "Doran Jaffas"  wrote:
>
> Maybe I AM blowing smoke and will inhale it later but I AM curious about
all the talk of adding drag to the KR to slow it down.
>? ? ?  I have flown several low drag / clean aircraft without flaps and
never had any unnerving problems with landing.
>? ? ? My personal opinion banded on some experience is to fly the airplane
as intended. Get comfortable with the SLOWER SPEEDS and then determine what
/ if anything else one needs or wants to add.? THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH IN
AERODYNAMICS.
>? ? ? All aircraft have speeds that work best as they are intended.
Whether a larger engine or a set of drag inducing flaps or belly board one
MUST ALWAYS REALIZE THE CHANGE will affect something else.
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?  Doran
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? N186RC
>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? kr2owner at email.co.
>
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KR> Drag????

[Carl Dow via KRnet]

Today at 3:10 AM  
The egos, the drama, the over reactions, the perfectionism, WOW 
I am sick, Mr. Langford, get over yourself.? Life is short? Just stop and 
be likeable it is enough to make me puke!? Your plane is awesome, your 
knowledge and experience are beyond reproach, but my dear sir you take yourself 
waay too seriously as do others on this site.? No one is better than 
any other in this world, no one has the right to belittle others, especially 
for trivialities.? Think what you will of this email, slam me as you do others, 
but this is truly for your own good and of those around you.? It is well 
intentioned as I have nothing to gain or lose from this.? I enjoy the vast 
amount of excellent information, but the truth is the egos and attitudes are a 
bit much.? We all do well in taking a long look at ourselves with a neutral 
view to see ourselves as others perceive us.? If this means nothing to you, 
then the loss is your own.

Sincerely,
Carl Edward Dow
On Friday, May 9, 2014 10:25 PM, Jeff Scott via KRnet  
wrote:

> - Original Message -
> 
> Maybe I AM blowing smoke and will inhale it later but I AM curious about
> all the talk of adding drag to the KR to slow it down.
> ?I have flown several low drag / clean aircraft without flaps and
> never had any unnerving problems with landing.
> ?My personal opinion banded on some experience is to fly the airplane
> as intended. Get comfortable with the SLOWER SPEEDS and then determine what
> / if anything else one needs or wants to add. THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH IN
> AERODYNAMICS.
> ?All aircraft have speeds that work best as they are intended. Whether
> a larger engine or a set of drag inducing flaps or belly board one MUST
> ALWAYS REALIZE THE CHANGE will affect something else.
> ?Doran
> ?N186RC
> ?kr2owner at email.co.

I was thinking the same way when I built my KR. ?I flew it 500 hrs with no 
flaps, belly board, or any other deployable drag. ?What I found over the years 
is that as I kept improving the plane with incremental drag reductions, the 
plane was getting more difficult to land. ?I was spending too much time over 
the runway transitioning from flying to rolling. ?At 500 hours, I did some 
major renovations to the plane  to include a 
significantly larger tail and the addition of flaps. ?To me, it was shocking as 
to how much easier this plane is to land with some kind of deployable drag. ?I 
have put another 500 hours on the plane since I added the flaps and have 
continued with my drag reduction improvements. ?It is really rare that I ever 
land this plane without flaps now that they are on there.

I don't think there was much question that I could fly the plane well in it's 
original configuration. ?(OK, some of you may think I suck as a pilot :o) ?What 
I discovered after adding flaps and a larger tail is that the plane was much 
easier to land. ?By making it easier to land, I found that I was much more 
comfortable landing the plane in more challenging wind conditions. ?Since I 
could land under more challenging conditions, I was flying the plane a lot more 
and was very comfortable flying off to other places without having to worry 
about changing wind conditions at my destination airport or the often times 
challenging wind conditions getting back into my one way in, one way out, 7000' 
high on a mesa home airport. ?Adding flaps and a larger tail to my plane simply 
made my plane so I could use it a more.

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM

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KR> Drag????

[via KRnet]

At 03:14 AM 5/11/2014, you wrote:
>no one has the right to belittle others, especially for trivialities.
++

P.S.  With 500+ hours flight time in a KR, there is nothing "trivial" 
about deployable drag for landing.  Our strong opinions are based on 
reality, not theory.

Larry Flesner 

KR> Drag???? Whoa!

[ppaul...@aol.com via KRnet]

I totally agree Larry.  I have the utmost respect for Mark and all the other 
builders that have a hell of a lot more experience than I do.  Mark I think I 
can speak for everyone.  You keep doing what you're doing a great job. Keep it 
up .

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618-406;4705

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!

- Reply message -
From: "via KRnet" 
List-Post: krnet@list.krnet.org
Date: Sun, May 11, 2014 7:29 am
Subject: KR> Drag Whoa!
To: "KRnet" 

At 03:09 AM 5/11/2014, you wrote:
>The egos, the drama, the over reactions, the 
>perfectionism, WOW I am sick, Mr. Langford, get over yourself.



The KR net is usually a very civil exchange of ideas so I have no 
idea of where this crap came from.  Someone asks a question about 
flaps or belly boards on a KR and a half dozen builders / fliers with 
a combined flight time of 3000+ hours respond with their 
opinion.  Where  is the drama, the ego, the over reactions, the 
perfectionism?  Your personal attack on Mark Langford is totally out 
of line and I'm calling you out on it.  I strongly suspect that those 
that take offense at the opinions given by those with experience have 
never taken flight in a KR.  If you ask a question on the net and a 
consensus of experienced builders / fliers disagree with you, don't 
take it personal but put the information in your pocket for later 
use.  If you're not willing to accept the advise of those with actual 
experience then you're wasting band width.

Have a nice day...

Larry Flesner


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KR> Drag???? Whoa!

[Mark Langford via KRnet]

Carl Dow wrote:

>>The egos, the drama, the over reactions, the 
>>perfectionism, WOW I am sick, Mr. Langford, get over yourself. Life is 
>>short Just stop and be likeable it is enough to make me puke! <<

There was a time when I'd let this bother me, but no longer.  I know that 
what I said was purely in the interest of answering Doran's post, which 
appeared to have been made without actual KR experience.  And although I 
could have said it in a "you are so wrong" way, instead I responded to his 
concerns with a simple explanation from the standpoint of my experience to 
the contrary.  And I did it as nicely as I possibly could have.

I think it's the duty of experienced builders and pilots to cry "foul" when 
somebody comes up with something from left field that has the potential of 
leading others down the wrong path.   I have zero regrets regarding my 
reply, and will continue to stand my ground when it's in the best interest 
of builders and pilots.

One of the rules of this list is to try to take comments from others as 
constructive, rather than destructive, and with the best possible 
interpretation. I'm not sure that either you or Doran read my post with that 
rule in mind.  I'm fine with what I said yesterday, and will spend the day 
working on my plane, rather than second guessing myself...

Mark Langford
ML at N56ML.com
website at http://www.N56ML.com
 

KR> Drag diatribe

[Jeff Scott via KRnet]

Since you made it a point to send your diatribe a second time directly to me, I 
assume the intent was to direct the same garbage at me. ?Boy, speaking of drama 
and overreactions?

I believe everything I wrote below was done in a civil, respectful manner, even 
to the point of agreeing that I once felt the same, then explained why I my 
thinking had changed. ?I won't be offended if he ignores my advice. ?Lots of 
people do. ?If you do not wish to benefit from my experience of 40 years of 
flying and building planes and over 1000 hours my KR based at one of the most 
challenging airports in the country, then feel free to skip my posts. ?If you 
don't like what the most experienced KR builders and pilots in existance have 
to say, I would suggest that you may be on the wrong forum. ?

-Jeff Scott
Los Alamos, NM


> - Original Message -
> From: Carl Dow
> Sent: 05/11/14 02:14 AM
> To: Jeff Scott, KRnet
> Subject: Re: KR> Drag
> 
> Today at 3:10 AM 
> The egos, the drama, the over reactions, the perfectionism, 
> WOW I am sick, 
> 
> Sincerely,
> Carl Edward Dow
> On Friday, May 9, 2014 10:25 PM, Jeff Scott via KRnet  list.krnet.org> wrote:
> ?
> > - Original Message -

> 
> I was thinking the same way when I built my KR. ?I flew it 500 hrs with no 
> flaps, belly board, or any other deployable drag. ?What I found over the 
> years is that as I kept improving the plane with incremental drag reductions, 
> the plane was getting more difficult to land. ?I was spending too much time 
> over the runway transitioning from flying to rolling. ?At 500 hours, I did 
> some major renovations to the plane  to include a 
> significantly larger tail and the addition of flaps. ?To me, it was shocking 
> as to how much easier this plane is to land with some kind of deployable 
> drag. ?I have put another 500 hours on the plane since I added the flaps and 
> have continued with my drag reduction improvements. ?It is really rare that I 
> ever land this plane without flaps now that they are on there.
> 
> I don't think there was much question that I could fly the plane well in it's 
> original configuration. ?(OK, some of you may think I suck as a pilot :o) 
> ?What I discovered after adding flaps and a larger tail is that the plane was 
> much easier to land. ?By making it easier to land, I found that I was much 
> more comfortable landing the plane in more challenging wind conditions. 
> ?Since I could land under more challenging conditions, I was flying the plane 
> a lot more and was very comfortable flying off to other places without having 
> to worry about changing wind conditions at my destination airport or the 
> often times challenging wind conditions getting back into my one way in, one 
> way out, 7000' high on a mesa home airport. ?Adding flaps and a larger tail 
> to my plane simply made my plane so I could use it a more.
> 
> -Jeff Scott
> Los Alamos, NM

KR> Put your name in the "from" box!

[stef...@kpnmail.nl via KRnet]

test
--
Steph and his dad are building the KR-2S see   
http://www.masttotaalconcept.nl/kr2




>Origineel Bericht
>Van : krnet at list.krnet.org
>Datum : 07/05/2014 00:08
>Aan : krnet at list.krnet.org
>Onderwerp : KR> Put your name in the "from" box!
>
>OK folks...you've no doubt noticed that KRnet has changed a bit in the last 
>few days.  Your names or email addresses are no longer available without 
>going to some hassle.   So I'm going to ask nicely that you all go into your 
>account settings and add your name to your account so we can keep up with 
>who said what (or at least some idea of your name...J.Smith would even work, 
>but won't meet the intent).  It makes a difference in the quality of the 
>list in the form of accountability and just plain civility.  If folks keep 
>sending emails with no signatures in them, I can't swear that I won't either 
>A) go in and add it myself, or B) something more drastic...since I'll likely 
>be even crankier by then.
>
>It's very simple, actually...I sent instructions earlier this week.   Go to 
>http://list.krnet.org/mailman/options/krnet_list.krnet.org/ and enter your
>email address in the field, and then go down and click on the REMIND button 
>to get your password sent as an email.  Then go over to the field that says 
>"Your name (optional):" and PUT SOMETHING IN THERE!  Ideally it would be 
>something like your full name (first and last), unless you like being 
>obstinate. I really don't want to see any more posts from just "via KRnet"!
>
>I shouldn't be wasting my time with stuff like this when I'm trying so hard 
>to get my KR back in the air after 21 months...
>
>Thanks,
>
>Mark Langford
>ML at N56ML.com
>website at http://www.N56ML.com
> 
>
>
>___
>Search the KRnet Archives at http://tugantek.com/archmailv2-kr/search.
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>please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
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>options
>

KR> test

[Dene via KRnet]

Pass :-)

Regards
Dene Collett
www.denecollett.com

-Original Message-
From: KRnet [mailto:krnet-bounces at list.krnet.org] On Behalf Of Mike
Sylvester via KRnet
Sent: 11 May, 2014 7:01 PM
To: krnet at list.krnet.org
Subject: KR> test

test

Mike Sylvester 
kr2s builder 
Birmingham,AL.

Cell no.205-966-3854  
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KR> Put your name in the "from" box!

[via KRnet]

>
>--
>Steph and his dad are building the 
>KR-2S see   http://www.masttotaalconcept.nl/kr2
>
+++

Ever since I first saw the photos I've considered the three Dutch 
KR's to be among the finest I've ever seen.  Nice looking birds.  If 
they could have attended a Gathering here in the U.S.A., they would 
have taken home their share of the awards.

Larry Flesner 

KR> KRnet Digest, Vol 2, Issue 121

[Doran Jaffas via KRnet]

Larry,Mark and others.
I sent in a request to not be notified from this site anymore so I
won't waste anymore of your bandwidth? C'Mon kids. Your terse  response
just made the points made. Good luck. Fly for the joy and gift that it is.
Selfworth really has no part of your experience.
   I have met a couple of good friends and we all have experience we
bounce off each other with good friendships be made stronger and knowledge
being gained without the arrogance that appears.
  When technical exceeds fun and ensuring the excitement then it has
outlived its worth.
  I am better qualified in more types than many but I choose to believe
in the magic of flight and the joy of sharing the experience with other's.
 Best regards to all flying kids.no matter what your
stage or station in life.
   Doran
   .kr2owner at gmail.com
On May 11, 2014 12:03 PM, "via KRnet"  wrote:

> Send KRnet mailing list submissions to
> krnet at list.krnet.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://list.krnet.org/mailman/listinfo/krnet_list.krnet.org
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> krnet-request at list.krnet.org
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> krnet-owner at list.krnet.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of KRnet digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re:  Fw: Re: Propellers (Jeff Scott via KRnet)
>2.  Larry Flesner please contact me (Ronald Wright via KRnet)
>3. Re:  Drag Whoa! (Doran Jaffas via KRnet)
>4. Re:  Drag Whoa! (Carl Dow via KRnet)
>5. Re:  Drag (Carl Dow via KRnet)
>6.  Drag Whoa! (via KRnet)
>7. Re:  Drag (via KRnet)
>8. Re:  Drag Whoa! (ppaulvsk at aol.comviaKRnet)
>9. Re:  Drag Whoa! (Mark Langford via KRnet)
>
>
> --
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 10 May 2014 13:10:02 -0400
> From: Jeff Scott via KRnet 
> To: "KRnet" 
> Subject: Re: KR> Fw: Re: Propellers
> Message-ID: <20140510171002.12310 at gmx.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Jeff L.
>
> Yes, I think we are dancing around the same elephant. ?When I say I
> respectfuly disagree, I mean exactly that as I know you are really into
> aircraft performance and measurement with a lot of first hand knowledge. ?I
> have a lot of respect for your work.
>
> My only point was that as a general statement, a longer prop will usually
> contribute significantly to both take off and initial climb. ?As you
> stated, aircraft drag becomes the more predominant factor with speed as
> more drag is generated with more speed. ?Prop length becomes much less of a
> factor in a small slick aircraft, especially at speed. ?In fact, for high
> cruise performance, too long of a prop becomes a real detriment. ?But, if
> you calculate your prop tip speed and find that it is running down in the
> .6 - .7 mach area, you can usually improve your take off, climb and cruise
> performance with a bit longer of a prop. ?If your prop tips are making
> close to .7 mach static, a longer prop is likely to help with take off and
> initial climb, but may hinder cruise. ?If you're making .8 mach or more
> with your prop tips at cruise, then chances are you'll probably increase
> your speed by going to a shorter prop. ?When calculating the mach number of
> the prop tip, you have to factor the aircraft speed into the calculation.
> ?.75 mach static may be over .8 mach at high cruise. ?For prop tuning, a
> faster plane may require a slightly shorter prop.
>
> Wish I could tell you the measurements from the prop I had on the VW
> powered Avid Flyer, but that's been 15 years ago and all that information
> was long ago lost. ?Additionally, since this was all done at over 7000'
> altitude, the numbers probably would not be useful for near to sea level
> operations.
>
> -Jeff Scott
> Los Alamos, NM
>
> > - Original Message -
> > From: JL
> > Sent: 05/09/14 11:12 PM
> > To: Jeff Scott, KRnet
> > Subject: Re: KR> Fw: Re: Propellers
> >
> > Jeff,
> >
> > Since I don't disagree with almost everything you posted, I suspect we
> are commenting about the same elephant, but from different ends ; )
> >
> > Sounds like you found the minimum diameter prop for your airplane. May I
> ask what that prop was and at what rpm you saw no further gains?
> >
> > The only thing I would not agree with is the lumping of static thrust,
> takeoff roll and rate of climb together. I tend to view them as three
> separate phases of flight. I think that there are certainly relationships
> there, but just because a plane has a short takeoff distance does not make
> it a good climbing airplane. Climb is a function of excess thrust and lift,
> where takeoff distance is less influenced by airframe drag and more
> influenced by raw mass flow past the cowl and anything 

KR> Sunday afternoon.

[Randy Moore Newbern Tn. N318RM via KRnet]

Steve is a good friend and man



-Original Message-
From: ppaulvsk at aol.com via KRnet 
To: via KRnet 
Sent: Sun, May 11, 2014 8:08 pm
Subject: KR> Sunday afternoon.


I would like to thank Stave Bray for a great Sunday afternoon.  He took me up 
in 
his plane to gave me some valuable  stick time to prepare  for my KR and spent 
the afternood talking and supper. 
Thanks again Steve.

Paul Visk
Belleville Il
618-406-4705

Sent from my HTC on the Now Network from Sprint!
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KR> email test

[Raymond Fuenzalida via KRnet]

Sorry to do another test but I haven't gotten an email since the 6th.  Just
making sure I'm still alive.



Ray_pilot
New Orleans

KR> drag?

[via KRnet]

Doran,

I'm sorry you felt threatened or challenged by our rather frank 
answers to a question asked on the net.  Our response was based on 
thousands of hours flight time in KR's. While your statement "I have 
flown several low drag / clean aircraft without flaps and never had 
any unnerving problems with landing" may be true,  it does not 
appropriately answer the question of whether or not flaps or speed 
brakes are necessary / desirable on a KR.  While you may have 
experience in many different types, I suspect your answer was not 
based on flight time in a KR.  The consensus, based on experience, 
was that every builder should give them serious consideration.  We 
"kids" play in a sport where mistakes can be fatal.  We're not here 
to make people feel good but to pass on knowledge based on 
experience.  Each reader can assign a value to each post and use or 
disregard that knowledge as they see fit.

Mark Langford is a very accomplished engineer and Mr. Dow's comments 
were totally out of line.  Mark is not only a valued contributor to 
the net but one of the primary reasons the net exists.   Given his 
schedule, I'm amazed he takes the time to share his 
considerable  knowledge with other builders.  Mr. Dow's statement 
that his post was  "well intentioned as I have nothing to gain or 
lose from this" is wrong based on it's results.  It tends to stifle 
builders from asking questions they might think are "stupid" or that 
they will be ridiculed for asking.  There are many builds with many 
questions yet to ask.  I hope they don't feel insulted by the answer 
they get that does not conform to their thinking.

Larry Flesner

KR> email test

[via KRnet]

>Sorry to do another test but I haven't gotten an email since the 6th.  Just
>making sure I'm still alive.
>Ray

++

Your test came through to the net.  You should get two replies, one 
from the net and one  personal.

Larry Flesner