KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans build, taildragger, but with belly board. After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the inspectors first flight in KR. I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the shivering passenger... The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the (problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot: Take off: take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at about 30kts the airplane veered to the right. We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of slushy snow. However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground at 50kts. The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do something" with the ground handling. The flight: -)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok -)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold direction and the airplane does not fall on its back -)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable -)flat turns - ok -)directional stability - ok -)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick and let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction - conclusion unstable - not ok -)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and everything not tied down flew up) not acceptable - unstable otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little bird. He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and therefore stabilizing the plane. After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the countryside covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us 15 minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the white surfaces. Landing: I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and between 1800 and 2000 RPM. He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts. Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR. We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending on the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop) His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the ground handling characteristics I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue eg. installing a Spring loaded stick. My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about 70 landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m (approx 1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers or something similar and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better job than my professional inspector. However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short strip 655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold. I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR. Cheers Christian OE-VPD http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd
KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
K..your inspector may have some time but is not a proficient pilot..and indications are he is a poor inspector..take heart and forget him..bob..4200inst in T-6..usaf test.14000tt.. Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA wrote: > > I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans > build, taildragger, but with belly board. > > After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the > inspectors first flight in KR. > I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more > than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I > found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the > shivering passenger... > > The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the > (problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot: > > Take off: > take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at about > 30kts the airplane veered to the right. > We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of slushy > snow. > However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground > at 50kts. > The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do something" > with the ground handling. > > The flight: > -)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok > -)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold > direction and the airplane does not fall on its back > -)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable > -)flat turns - ok > -)directional stability - ok > -)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick and > let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction - > conclusion unstable - not ok > -)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in > forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce > increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into > full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and > everything not tied down flew up) > not acceptable - unstable > otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little bird. > He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and > therefore stabilizing the plane. > > After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the countryside > covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us 15 > minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the white > surfaces. > > Landing: > I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and > between 1800 and 2000 RPM. > He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts. > Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR. > We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending on > the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And > stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop) > > His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the > ground handling characteristics > I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get > final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue > eg. installing a Spring loaded stick. > > My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about 70 > landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m (approx > 1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers or > something similar > and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better > job than my professional inspector. > However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short strip > 655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold. > > I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane > you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the > inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR. > > Cheers > Christian > OE-VPD > http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd > > ___ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
Christian Is it normal for the final authority to fly the airplane? This inspector should have known better than to take control (especially on take off and landing) of an airplane which he was unfamiliar with. I wonder what his comment would have been if he had brooken it? Proficiency in several types of aircraft don't mean proficiency in every type of aircraft. I have flown highly experienced fighter pilots in a Cessna 150 and found that they were completely out of their environment and had to take control to recover their landing. Of course it didn't take them long to master the C-150 but first take off or landings can be disastrous in unfamiliar airplanes. Jack Cooper > [Original Message] > From: Kogelmann Christian - OS ETA <christian.kogelm...@aua.com> > To: KRnet <kr...@mylist.net> > Date: 2/26/2004 12:11:42 PM > Subject: KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability > > I thought I share the final authority check on my KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans > build, taildragger, but with belly board. > > After the paperwork check the inspector wanted to fly. It should be the > inspectors first flight in KR. > I wasn't keen on letting the inspector fly, but he insisted as he had more > than 1000 flight hours on 80 different types including taildragger (PA18 I > found out later). Pilot in command was the authority guy and I was the > shivering passenger... > > The airplane has 37:18 flighthours and 215 landings so far and here is the > (problem-)report issued by our experienced pilot: > > Take off: > take off roll was initially stable once the tail was off the ground at about > 30kts the airplane veered to the right. > We departed the runway at about 40 knots to the right and into 2in of slushy > snow. > However the airplane still accelerated and he yanked it of the soft ground > at 50kts. > The inspector was upset with the aircraft and recommended to "do something" > with the ground handling. > > The flight: > -)we did some normal stalls at around 46kts-ok > -)we did stalls at 45° bank angle - scary but ok you can still hold > direction and the airplane does not fall on its back > -)we did slips - all ok and maneuverable > -)flat turns - ok > -)directional stability - ok > -)static longitudinal stability - trimmed to 90kts and moving the stick and > let go will decelerate or accelerate the airplane to destruction - > conclusion unstable - not ok > -)dynamic longitudinal stability - trimmed to 100kts moving the stick 2in > forward and 2in aft and then let go will induce > increasing up-down motion with the stick moving after the 3rd motion into > full down and you end up with negative G (oil pressure light came on and > everything not tied down flew up) > not acceptable - unstable > otherwise the inspector was impressed by the performance of the little bird. > He recommended to install a elevator spring to stabilize the stick and > therefore stabilizing the plane. > > After we finished our program we dove under the clouds, and the countryside > covered with white snow looked the same everywhere we looked...it took us 15 > minutes of finding the 655m long asphalt runway in amidst off all the white > surfaces. > > Landing: > I told him that I do long stabilized approaches at "exactly!!" 70kts and > between 1800 and 2000 RPM. > He did a short approach between 70 and 80kts. > Flare was very high as he is not used to a very low KR. > We bounced 3 times and went all over the place with the left gear ending on > the left outer barrier of the runway and the airplane slid sideways. And > stopped without a full ground loop (I guess it was a half loop) > > His comment - I guess we did not break itand think about improving the > ground handling characteristics > I was mad, under shock and my mouth was extremely dry and I did not get > final certification as I need to sort out the longitudinal stability issue > eg. installing a Spring loaded stick. > > My conclusion, after my training with a former Air Force pilot for about 70 > landings I am halfway capable of landing the little bird on my 655m (approx > 1900ft) home airport. My landings are (please don't flame me) 3 pointers or > something similar > and I (120 flight hours experience + glider time) would have done a better > job than my professional inspector. > However the belly board is a huge improvement when landing on a short strip > 655x30m (1900x90) its worth its weight in gold. > > I hope I didn't bore you too much but it shows if you don't know the plane > you can have all sorts of take off and landing problems in what the > inspector called "Giftnudel"-KR. > > Cheers > Christian > OE-VPD > http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd > > > > > > ___ > to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net > please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
Fire the inspector, report him to the FAA and don't do anything to your plane to make it unsafe. If an inspector that had no time in a KR and who I didn't know asked, insisted, to fly my plane, I would tell him to take a hike. We have an experienced RV conventional gear pilot giving RV lessons to a high time F-16 pilot and it took him a little while to get used to it. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC da...@kr-builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org
KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
Might ask the inspector for his log book to see if he has been previously checked out in KR. Probably illegal for him to fly it without being checked out in it first. John Monday KR2S Laguna Beach, CA
KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability
I got the impression this flight was done outside the US. Which could explain the diversity the inspector had. I could be wrong. - Original Message - From: "Dan Heath" <da...@alltel.net> To: <kr...@mylist.net> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:32 PM Subject: Re: KR>Flight Characteristics - Longitudinal Stability Fire the inspector, report him to the FAA and don't do anything to your plane to make it unsafe. If an inspector that had no time in a KR and who I didn't know asked, insisted, to fly my plane, I would tell him to take a hike. We have an experienced RV conventional gear pilot giving RV lessons to a high time F-16 pilot and it took him a little while to get used to it. See N64KR at http://KR-Builder.org - Then click on the pics Daniel R. Heath - Columbia, SC da...@kr-builder.org See you in Mt. Vernon - 2004 - KR Gathering See our EAA Chapter 242 at http://EAA242.org ___ to UNsubscribe from KRnet, send a message to krnet-le...@mylist.net please see other KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html
KR>Flight Characteristics
Mr. Monday; Single-engine land. If he is a private pilot he can fly a KR. Whether or not the insurance company likes the fact that he is flying a KR is a different issue. RV
KR>Flight Characteristics
Netters, thanks for your comments: -) the flight was in LOGF Austria (Europe) -) I build an will have to register the airplane in Austria under the following conditions: -) 51 percent like with the FAA -) extensive 60 page test protocols to complete -) 50 hours total test flight time -) noise certificate -) and a flight characteristics review by the local authority -) we were trying to do the flight characteristics review last Wednesday -) review went ok expect for the inspector induced ground handling problem and the longitudinal stability -) next review is scheduled in 3 months (hopefully with a different inspector) -) the inspector never flew a KR before, his taildragger experience is limited to PA18, but he did a test pilot course in the US. -) if the authority inspector flies (I am already afraid of that happening again) my airplane the Austrian government covers the insurance my experience with the KR-2S/GPAS2180 plans build + belly board -) first flight was done by another local authority inspector 1.Aug 2002 - he overran the runway, slight prop damage -) the next 5 flight hours were at an Air Force Base (12000ft runway) with a retired Air Force pilot...super experienced and very interesting to work with...using such a huge airfield is best to get to know the plane... -) the remaining time to the 37 hours were flown by a glider tow pilot at a 1900ft long tar sealed airfield. -) the glider tow pilot is also very experienced and he trained me on the KR -) as of yet I have about 10 hours and I took off, flew and landed the KR without my safety pilot interfering. -) I still have to wait for the right timing to go for my real solo -) the airplane is very easy and delightful however it is a handful once it is on the ground. Cheers Christian OE-VPD http://www.members.aon.at/oevpd
