KR>Re: fuel leak

[Kayak]

Interesting. Not sure how many ofg us fly on E-anything fuel, but could. (I
maybe plan to, just not for takeoff and initial climbout) JB Weld site
says:

*When fully cured, J-B Weld is completely resistant to water, gasoline, and
about every other petroleum product or automotive chemical. For wet-surface
or submerged water or gasoline repairs, try our SteelStik or WaterWeld. *

but does not mention ethanol. Googling the subject returns this language
from other sources:



*Is epoxy resin ethanol resistant?Normal epoxy (as used in carbon fiber
tanks) will last for a while but will eventually be softened by ethanol
fuels. Only epoxy that will resist it long term is Phenol Novalac.Mar 23,
2012*
and



*Is J-B Weld E85 safe?We do not recommend ANY brand epoxy for use with E85
when in a submerged environment. ... That being said, JB Weld seems to work
well with E85 when not submerged for long periods.*




On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 11:41 AM Ronald Wright  wrote:

> JB weld is NOT ETHANOL PROOF..  ANY amount of ethanol and it will eat JB..
> Impervious to ALL fuels except Ethanol..
>
> Ron
>
>
>

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Flesner]

On 9/7/2021 8:56 AM, Jeff Scott wrote:

You could jump through all kinds of hoops to fix the fuel leaks.  If it was 
mine, I would throw the gasket away and put the transducer back onto the tank 
bedded in a bead of ProSeal.




Thanks, Jeff.  I'll get more info from you at the Gathering. Sounds like 
a permanent fix.


Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Ronald Wright]

JB weld is NOT ETHANOL PROOF..  ANY amount of ethanol and it will eat JB..
Impervious to ALL fuels except Ethanol..

Ron

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 10:31 AM Kayak  wrote:

> I like this idea of bedding in proseal (my JB epoxy would not be
> removeable)
>
> and what about using a slightly oversized screw, even a sheet metal screw,
> in the one stripped position?
>
> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:57 AM Jeff Scott  wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >  +++
> >
> > You could jump through all kinds of hoops to fix the fuel leaks.  If it
> > was mine, I would throw the gasket away and put the transducer back onto
> > the tank bedded in a bead of ProSeal.  Seal each of the bolts with
> ProSeal
> > as well, including the one with the stripped threads.  Proseal will bond
> > the transducer to the mounting plate and will make a fuel tight seal.
> > ProSeal sets as a rubber like compound, so you can get the transducer
> back
> > out by cutting with a putty knife should you ever need to do so.  I use a
> > 3M product available through SkyGeek that is about 1/3 the cost of
> ProSeal,
> > but is chemically the same.  I strongly recommend prepping the surfaces
> > before bonding by cleaning and scuffing lightly with sandpaper.  When
> > working with aluminum, acid etch the aluminum before sealing.  I have
> used
> > ProSeal to seal both aluminum and composite tanks as it will stick to any
> > properly prepared surface.
> >
> > -Jeff Scott
> > 
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> >
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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Kayak]

I like this idea of bedding in proseal (my JB epoxy would not be
removeable)

and what about using a slightly oversized screw, even a sheet metal screw,
in the one stripped position?

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 9:57 AM Jeff Scott  wrote:

>
>
>  +++
>
> You could jump through all kinds of hoops to fix the fuel leaks.  If it
> was mine, I would throw the gasket away and put the transducer back onto
> the tank bedded in a bead of ProSeal.  Seal each of the bolts with ProSeal
> as well, including the one with the stripped threads.  Proseal will bond
> the transducer to the mounting plate and will make a fuel tight seal.
> ProSeal sets as a rubber like compound, so you can get the transducer back
> out by cutting with a putty knife should you ever need to do so.  I use a
> 3M product available through SkyGeek that is about 1/3 the cost of ProSeal,
> but is chemically the same.  I strongly recommend prepping the surfaces
> before bonding by cleaning and scuffing lightly with sandpaper.  When
> working with aluminum, acid etch the aluminum before sealing.  I have used
> ProSeal to seal both aluminum and composite tanks as it will stick to any
> properly prepared surface.
>
> -Jeff Scott
> 
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> John Bouyea's decades of archive at
> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
>

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[larry howell via KRnet]

Jeff, after you recently explained the strength of ProSeal to me I agree with 
your thoughts on Larry’s repair. This could be a very easy repair for you 
Larry. Just need to get a little ProSeal and do a little cleaning!

Larry H

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 8:56 AM, Jeff Scott  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> +++
> 
> You could jump through all kinds of hoops to fix the fuel leaks.  If it was 
> mine, I would throw the gasket away and put the transducer back onto the tank 
> bedded in a bead of ProSeal.  Seal each of the bolts with ProSeal as well, 
> including the one with the stripped threads.  Proseal will bond the 
> transducer to the mounting plate and will make a fuel tight seal.  ProSeal 
> sets as a rubber like compound, so you can get the transducer back out by 
> cutting with a putty knife should you ever need to do so.  I use a 3M product 
> available through SkyGeek that is about 1/3 the cost of ProSeal, but is 
> chemically the same.  I strongly recommend prepping the surfaces before 
> bonding by cleaning and scuffing lightly with sandpaper.  When working with 
> aluminum, acid etch the aluminum before sealing.  I have used ProSeal to seal 
> both aluminum and composite tanks as it will stick to any properly prepared 
> surface.
> 
> -Jeff Scott
> 
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> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/ 

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Jeff Scott]

 +++

You could jump through all kinds of hoops to fix the fuel leaks.  If it was 
mine, I would throw the gasket away and put the transducer back onto the tank 
bedded in a bead of ProSeal.  Seal each of the bolts with ProSeal as well, 
including the one with the stripped threads.  Proseal will bond the transducer 
to the mounting plate and will make a fuel tight seal.  ProSeal sets as a 
rubber like compound, so you can get the transducer back out by cutting with a 
putty knife should you ever need to do so.  I use a 3M product available 
through SkyGeek that is about 1/3 the cost of ProSeal, but is chemically the 
same.  I strongly recommend prepping the surfaces before bonding by cleaning 
and scuffing lightly with sandpaper.  When working with aluminum, acid etch the 
aluminum before sealing.  I have used ProSeal to seal both aluminum and 
composite tanks as it will stick to any properly prepared surface.

-Jeff Scott

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Flesner]

On 9/7/2021 7:56 AM, Flesner wrote:
ther "childish" drawing of what my plan is at the moment.  It will 
require a bit of machining but I consider it a permanent fix.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/hld7xhxexa2op4v/fuel%20leak%20005.jpg?dl=0


+++

I labeled the gasket in the wrong location.  It would go under the 
sender puck and the aluminum mount, not the old and new mount.  The new 
mount would be totally sealed to the tank except the center hole where 
the probe enters the tank.  A standard gasket would be used on the new 
mount, same as original.  The new bold holes would have more threads and 
not penetrate the tank.


Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Flesner]

On 9/7/2021 12:59 AM, Michael wrote:

What about drilling out the holes and fitting Rivet Nuts with a custom
gasket/seal between the mount plate and sender.


+

I considered rivet nuts, bought the tool and tested on scrap material.  
They do no compress tight enough in 1/8" aluminum that I trust them not 
to turn when installing the bolts or removing the bolts at some point in 
the future.  The 1/8" mounting plant is threaded and no nuts or 
fasteners on the inside and no access to the inside of the tank.  1/8" 
aluminum plate has maybe two or three rows of threads at most of soft 
material and they just stripped out on one hole last year.  The 
heli-coil threads are little improvement.  With no access to the inside 
of the tank except the small probe hole in the center there is no way to 
fasten nuts on the inside or I'd install blind nuts.


Here is another "childish" drawing of what my plan is at the moment.  It 
will require a bit of machining but I consider it a permanent fix.


https://www.dropbox.com/s/hld7xhxexa2op4v/fuel%20leak%20005.jpg?dl=0

For now, a couple of days of light duty, part time work and then it is 
off to the Gathering.


Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Stef den Boer]

In my opinion….make a thick washer/plate that is bigger in diameter than it is now. Copydrill the holes that in your tank and from your sender. Install on the holes dome nuts by riveting (we use them in pressurized cabin or fuel tanks). Enlarge the holes in the fuel tank so that the done nuts have space. Drill a new row of rivets out of your flange from the fuel sender. Install everything with pro sealent and the job is fixed.Thats my idea.hope you can use it.stefOp 7 september 2021 om 1:45 schreef Flesner :The fuel leak in my left wing tank that I thought I had fixed a year ago has returned.  I have tanks in each outer wing panel, 12 1/2 gal, and after 14 years the gasket that secures the sender units to the tank developed a very minor leak, just enough to require fixing.  Last year I removed the wing, pulled the fuel sender assembly, installed a new gasket and re-installed the sender unit.  Unfortunately the threads in the 1/8" mounting plate stripped in one of the five holes. I tried threaded inserts but they would not fit tight enough to prevent rotation.  I installed heli-coil inserts and the fix was marginal so I added sealant around the bolt heads and that seemed to work.  Well, one year later and the leak is back. Here is a photo from last year. The patch you see on the tank is from 15 years ago to repair a leak after the first fill.  It is the sender unit / gasket / mount plate that is the problem.  I'd like the break the pencil of the engineer that designed an 1/8" mounting plate.https://www.dropbox.com/s/7oomdcvvj7uo40r/image00-1%20copy.jpg?dl=0After the Gathering I will pull the wing again and attempt a permanent repair.  Problem?  What will be a good fix? I could rotate the sender slightly and drill 5 new holes and thread but an 1/8" mount was a crappy method the first time.  No access to inside of tank.  Here is a VERY ROUGH line drawing of the setup. Excuse my total lack of artistic talent and lack of motivation to improve it.https://www.dropbox.com/s/kh2f69fborks986/fuel%20leak%20001.jpg?dl=0I'm considering having a friend make up a matching aluminum puck approx 1/2" thick, drill and thread mount holes that do not penetrate to the tank, then epoxy or J.B. Weld the puck to the existing tank mount.   That would give excellent mounting pressure for the gasket and the only hole to seal would be the center hole where the sensor probe enters the tank.  I'm not inclined to cut the old mount from the tank and start over without having access to the inside of the tank and I'm not inclined to open up the tank.  I'm convinced I could get a good seal on the puck, especially with a lip / joggle turned on the puck on the tank side and then covered with several layers of glass / epoxy.  I'm liking this fix better the longer I consider it and making mental adjustments.Opinions?Larry Flesner-Please see LIST RULES and KRnet info at http://www.krnet.org/info.html-Change list delivery options at https://list.krnet.org/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/ Affinity List Info Board-Search recent KRnet Archives at https://list.krnet.org/empathy/list/krnet.list.krnet.org/-Search John Bouyea's decades of archive at https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/
 
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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Kayak]

I would NOT suggest using a cheap one like in the attached picture, just
that the concept could be machined stronger. I suggested this because it
sounds like the backing plate is also the "nut" into which the screws turn,
and at 1/8" thick it stripped out on one hole and now cant get access to it
inside to attach a normal nut on that one stripped out hole. IF I have this
right, I thought of strong epoxy and an alternative fastener nut for that
one location to draw it together until the epoxy cures.

I dunno, this is my 2 cents suggestion idea and its probably overpriced...

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 9:05 PM Flesner  wrote:

> On 9/6/2021 7:50 PM, Kayak wrote:
> > I cant visualize but couple thoughts...
> >
> > JB weld? machine some kind of mini stainless toggle nut to draw it tight
> > with a bed of JB?
> >
>
>

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Flesner]

On 9/6/2021 8:06 PM, Flesner wrote:

On 9/6/2021 7:50 PM, Kayak wrote:

I cant visualize but couple thoughts...

JB weld? machine some kind of mini stainless toggle nut to draw it tight
with a bed of JB?


+

Thanks but I can't visualize a "toggle nut".  Photos? web page? 
catalog & part number?


Larry Flesner
 



O.K., a toggle nut.  I found them but I don't want to penetrate the 
tank, .again.


I'd prefer to glass a "puck" to the outside or something like that.

Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Flesner]

On 9/6/2021 7:50 PM, Kayak wrote:

I cant visualize but couple thoughts...

JB weld? machine some kind of mini stainless toggle nut to draw it tight
with a bed of JB?


+

Thanks but I can't visualize a "toggle nut".  Photos? web page? catalog 
& part number?


Larry Flesner

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KR>Re: fuel leak

[Kayak]

I cant visualize but couple thoughts...

JB weld? machine some kind of mini stainless toggle nut to draw it tight
with a bed of JB?

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 7:44 PM Flesner  wrote:

>
> The fuel leak in my left wing tank that I thought I had fixed a year ago
> has returned.  I have tanks in each outer wing panel, 12 1/2 gal, and
> after 14 years the gasket that secures the sender units to the tank
> developed a very minor leak, just enough to require fixing.  Last year I
> removed the wing, pulled the fuel sender assembly, installed a new
> gasket and re-installed the sender unit.  Unfortunately the threads in
> the 1/8" mounting plate stripped in one of the five holes. I tried
> threaded inserts but they would not fit tight enough to prevent
> rotation.  I installed heli-coil inserts and the fix was marginal so I
> added sealant around the bolt heads and that seemed to work.  Well, one
> year later and the leak is back. Here is a photo from last year. The
> patch you see on the tank is from 15 years ago to repair a leak after
> the first fill.  It is the sender unit / gasket / mount plate that is
> the problem.  I'd like the break the pencil of the engineer that
> designed an 1/8" mounting plate.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/7oomdcvvj7uo40r/image00-1%20copy.jpg?dl=0
>
> After the Gathering I will pull the wing again and attempt a permanent
> repair.  Problem?  What will be a good fix? I could rotate the sender
> slightly and drill 5 new holes and thread but an 1/8" mount was a crappy
> method the first time.  No access to inside of tank.  Here is a VERY
> ROUGH line drawing of the setup. Excuse my total lack of artistic talent
> and lack of motivation to improve it.
>
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/kh2f69fborks986/fuel%20leak%20001.jpg?dl=0
>
> I'm considering having a friend make up a matching aluminum puck approx
> 1/2" thick, drill and thread mount holes that do not penetrate to the
> tank, then epoxy or J.B. Weld the puck to the existing tank mount.
> That would give excellent mounting pressure for the gasket and the only
> hole to seal would be the center hole where the sensor probe enters the
> tank.  I'm not inclined to cut the old mount from the tank and start
> over without having access to the inside of the tank and I'm not
> inclined to open up the tank.  I'm convinced I could get a good seal on
> the puck, especially with a lip / joggle turned on the puck on the tank
> side and then covered with several layers of glass / epoxy.  I'm liking
> this fix better the longer I consider it and making mental adjustments.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Larry Flesner
> 
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> John Bouyea's decades of archive at
> https://www.mail-archive.com/krnet@list.krnet.org/

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