RE: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

Nancy

I only omitted Valenciennes because it produces another whole set of problems.
Mechlin/Flanders and Flemish/Brussels/Duchesse were enough, for the time
being. Let me recover my brain’s full function and I may revisit that aspect
of the problem.



And, among your other points, the problem of gradual changes from one type to
another, there is also the problem of wild, uncontained, irreverent creativity
which leads some lace designers to mix styles and techniques. It drives me
crazy.



Also, having just reviewed my own pinboards, with lots of examples, I now have
to admit that Mechlin ground was used in the mid 1700s in straight laces. I
base this on the ratio of ground to motif. If that ratio is 50/50 the lace is
from c. 1750, give or take a decade.



Also I just revised some of my pinboards, and separated out the Revival Era
and modern examples from the older ones. So the links I just posted don’t
work. But these should.



Part laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-flemish-milanese/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/



Straight laces

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-antique/

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-revival-era-and-modern/



From: Nancy Neff [mailto:nancy.a.n...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 7:42 PM
To: Lorelei Halley 
Cc: Arachne 
Subject: Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology



Lorelei,



It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see that
the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a short-hand
for some set of data.

...

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Re: [lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Nancy Neff]

Lorelei,

It may be because I am both a collector and a lacemaker, but I don't see
that the two groups differ in what they want to use a name for--to be a
short-hand for some set of data. The data that you as a lacemaker want to
know is the same as what I think collectors want to know--techniques, date,
location of manufacture, materials, and what characteristics enable one to
know date and origin. The fundamental question is which of these data do
you want to base a name on?  The more distinguishing features you use as
the basis for identifying a "kind of lace"--i.e., what one puts a unique
name to--the finer the categories are going to be and the more names will
be in play. Plus you have the difficulty of naming lace that is a
duplicate, made yesterday, of an antique piece, since I think both
lacemakers and collectors would consider the later copy to be different
from the original, however close to identical the two are.

My second observation is that the terminology problem really arises from
the fact that there are few discontinuities in the history of lace; for any
two related kinds of lace, one can usually find examples that are
intermediate between the two, or combine features from one with features
from the other. Any terminology is going to have problems with items that
fall on a spectrum or, worse, vary in multiple dimensions as lace does.

I suspect that my solution for my own use will be to base a set of names on
only the techniques used in the lace, and apply adjectives to those names
as needed to communicate the other metadata, especially date, because
usually all the rest are inferred from techniques and design. However, I
will withhold that suggestion as well as specific comment on your
classification until I have found my old notes and thought more about it
all again, since this revisits something I attempted to do about 10 years
ago (except to ask whether you meant to exclude Valenciennes or is that an
oversight?).

Many thanks to Devon, I think it was, for opening this particularly
interesting can of worms!

Nancy A. Neff
Connecticut, USA

On Tue, Feb 14, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Lorelei Halley 
wrote:

> We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
> different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. ... As
> I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
> particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
> would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
> consider the purpose of a name for a lace. ...
>
> The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
> perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
> this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
> terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
> that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces...

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[lace] Mechlin and lace terminology

[Lorelei Halley]

We have a constant problem with terminology, partly because we comprise 2
different groups of people - collectors and lace makers. I am not willing to
say one is right and the other wrong. But our perspectives are different. As
I understand it, the collectors want a name they can use to reference a
particular piece in a way that gives collectors an idea what to expect. I
would like to hear from collectors on this issue, particularly what they
consider the purpose of a name for a lace. So "Mechlin" may refer to a
general geographical origin (just as "Honiton" may refer to any part lace
from Devon, which traveled to London on the Honiton coach)  Collectors also
seem to use the term "Flemish" to refer to the fragile laces from about
1650-1700 that were made, generally, in the region of Flanders.

 

The problem comes in when us lacemakers get into the conversation. My
perspective is always that of a lace maker - what techniques are used in
this piece, what do I have to know to reproduce this. I also would like
terminology to refer to time, to distinguish antique from modern designs of
that type, and to distinguish century or half century for antique laces. I
have worked out a set of terminology that I use, mostly to talk to myself. I
don't seriously expect everybody to follow my path (though I admit my ego
would find that delicious). 

 

I use Flemish/Early Brussels to describe part laces from 1650 to the early
1700s. I tack on the Early Brussels to indicate there should be no confusion
about whether Flemish = Flanders. (The latter name usually describes a
straight/continuous lace.)
https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/v/t1.0-9/996823_49140
0894273766_1364151723_n.jpg?oh=2cff56b44e455c0a632fcee9eaf247e3

=53A3EEF6&__gda__=1404252930_8170d20c0b32e3d52a6b574a925e4929

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/15026355644/in/photostream/ 

http://lynxlace.com/images/lace719.jpg 

 

Look at the last row - http://lynxlace.com/bobbinlace1559to1700.html 

 

I use "Brussels" to refer to part laces of the 18th century which emanate
from the fashion center of that age. Laces from about 1750 are sometimes
called "point d'Angleterre". But I refuse to use that latter name. As far as
I can see its only use is to describe a particular style of Brussels lace.
Duchesse is the 19th c simplification of Brussels. I refuse to use "Brussels
Duchesse" to refer to Duchesse with needle inserts: I just call it "Duchesse
with point de gaze inserts". I do that because the motifs of Duchesse are
distinct and always basically the same. 

 

Here are links to my pinterest boards, which I have collected in an attempt
to pin images to these names.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/early-brussels-early-flemish-early-mi
lanese-part-l/ 

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/brussels-point-de-angleterre-brabant/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/duchesse-bobbin-lace/ 

 

I use Flanders/Mechlin to describe straight/continuous laces from the region
near the town of Mechlin, dating from the first half of the 18th c, and
using any of the complex grounds, usually with gimp. And I use "Flanders" to
describe laces from the revival era, c 1900, using 5 hole ground. And I use
"Mechlin" to refer to revival era laces which have Mechlin ground.

https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/flanders-and-old-mechlin-bobbin-lace/


https://www.pinterest.com/lynxlacelady/mechlin/ 

 

I am trying to create names which include reference to the structure, the
time environment, and the style of a lace.

 

Sorry for the very lengthy report, but this can't really be explained in
just a few words. So I offer my method, for whatever it is worth.

 

Lorelei Halley

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RE: [lace] Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

That fits well. I agree.
Lorelei

-Original Message-
From: owner-l...@arachne.com [mailto:owner-l...@arachne.com] On Behalf Of Ilske 
Thomsen
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 11:07 AM
To: Arachne reply 
Subject: Re: [lace] Mechlin

Mechlin, Valenciennes and Binche laces looked at the beginning of 18th century 
very similar but than they became each their typical look. Mechlin get an 
outline for example.with In the first half of 18th cent. the motives of the 
Mechlin lace were named flowers and worked in linen stitch and little 
decoration formed a sort of fantasy ground. In the second Half the fantasy 
grounds disappear and give place for the net grounds. And the motives were 
flowers, leafs partly with a whole in the middle. The outline give the motives 
exact shape. At the beginning o 19th cent. the net ground with square tallies 
is new.The flowers become bigger mostly roses.
That’s what I learned about Mechlin lace.

Ilske

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[lace] RE: Mechlin

[Lorelei Halley]

Alex

What you say does not really conflict with what I said. I think it is a
confirmation. Part of our problem is that when we say the word "Mechlin"
most lace makers think of the lace with Mechlin ground. I think that whether
the stack of half stitches has 3, 4 or 6 half stitches is not really
important. From what Devon and others have said, it sounds like the
collectors use the word "Mechlin" to describe a straight/continuous lace
from a region in the general vicinity of the town of Mechlin. And yes, it is
also my impression that Mechlin ground only became popular when the ratio of
ground to motifs became very large. In the mid 1700s the ratio was
approximately 50/50. But from that point the ground took up more and more of
the surface. And that is when Mechlin ground became common and the other
more complex ground disappeared.

Lorelei

 

From: Alex Stillwell [mailto:alexstillw...@talktalk.net] 
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 3:21 AM
To: Arachne reply 
Cc: Lorelei Halley 
Subject: Mechlin

 

 

Hi Lorelei

 

As far as I have managed to understand it the ,Mechlin, made before about
1740 was the early type with an all-over design that rarely contained the
ground we now class as Mechlin, i.e. hexagons with vertical plaits of four
half stitches with two twists on the pairs on the diagonal sides. I have one
piece containing plaits of only three half stitches. From my reading it
would appear that it was after this, when the general design changed and
more ground was used, that the different names were used.

 

It is most confusing

 

Alex

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Re: [lace] Lace magazine

[Beth Marshall]

I'm in the UK & I received mine a week or two ago, so those of you 
overseas should receive yours soon
Sorry I've not had time to post a review to whet your appetites (not 
even had time to finish reading it yet) - it will be well worth the wait


Beth
in Cheshire (NW England)

Jean wrote:

October is the last issue I received.
Jean Reardon, Pennsylvania

On Feb 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Celtic Dream Weaver  
wrote:

  Has anybody gotten their Lace Magazine? I haven't gotten the Jan. issue yet
so I am curious. Wind To Thy Wings,SherryNew York, US of
Americacelticdreamweave@yahoo.comhttp://celticdreamweaver.com/http://celticdr
eamweave.blogspot.com/Nata 616



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Re: [lace] Lace magazine

[J Reardon]

October is the last issue I received.
Jean Reardon, Pennsylvania 

Sent from my iPad

> On Feb 14, 2017, at 2:02 PM, Celtic Dream Weaver  
> wrote:
> 
>  Has anybody gotten their Lace Magazine? I haven't gotten the Jan. issue yet
> so I am curious. Wind To Thy Wings,SherryNew York, US of
> Americacelticdreamweave@yahoo.comhttp://celticdreamweaver.com/http://celticdr
> eamweave.blogspot.com/Nata 616
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe send email to majord...@arachne.com containing the line:
> unsubscribe lace y...@address.here. For help, write to
> arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/lacemaker/sets/

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Re: [lace] Mechlin

[Ilske Thomsen]

Mechlin, Valenciennes and Binche laces looked at the beginning of 18th century 
very similar but than they became each their typical look. Mechlin get an 
outline for example.with In the first half of 18th cent. the motives of the 
Mechlin lace were named flowers and worked in linen stitch and little 
decoration formed a sort of fantasy ground. In the second Half the fantasy 
grounds disappear and give place for the net grounds. And the motives were 
flowers, leafs partly with a whole in the middle. The outline give the motives 
exact shape. At the beginning o 19th cent. the net ground with square tallies 
is new.The flowers become bigger mostly roses.
That’s what I learned about Mechlin lace.

Ilske

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RE: [lace] RE: Carbon dating of lace

[Laurie Waters]

After the article in the OIDFA bulletin is published I’ll be happy to
discuss this in detail. Thanks,

Laurie



From: devonth...@gmail.com [mailto:devonth...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2017 6:23 AM
To: Anna Binnie ; Lorelei Halley ;
'Laurie Waters' ; 'Nancy Neff'
; jeria...@aol.com; 'Arachne' 
Subject: RE: [lace] RE: Carbon dating of lace



Anna writes: “That is why I mentioned that lace is in the historic period
and you

would be better to date the lace using type, style and thread composition.”



If we thought that it were possible to use type, style and thread composition
to date lace within a 500 year period, we wouldn’t be trying to date it
using scientific methods. Those darned Victorians did a really good job of
copying things.



I am not a scientist, but Laurie is a nuclear physicist. She has written a
paper about the testing results which are more subtle than you might think.
Perhaps she doesn’t want to divulge all the details until it is published.
But I am very excited.



Devon

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RE: [lace] RE: Carbon dating of lace

[devonthein]

Anna writes: “That is why I mentioned that lace is in the historic period
and you
would be better to date the lace using type, style and thread composition.”

If we thought that it were possible to use type, style and thread composition
to date lace within a 500 year period, we wouldn’t be trying to date it
using scientific methods. Those darned Victorians did a really good job of
copying things.

I am not a scientist, but Laurie is a nuclear physicist. She has written a
paper about the testing results which are more subtle than you might think.
Perhaps she doesn’t want to divulge all the details until it is published.
But I am very excited.

Devon

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[lace] Mechlin

[Alex Stillwell]

Date: Sat, 11 Feb 2017 21:02:39 -0600
From: "Lorelei Halley" 
Subject: [lace] RE: Mechlin

Alex

Of the books you list, I only have Levey and Palliser. Palliser was trying to
be scholarly

Hi Lorelei

As far as I have managed to understand it the ,Mechlin, made before about 1740
was the early type with an all-over design that rarely contained the ground we
now class as Mechlin, i.e. hexagons with vertical plaits of four half stitches
with two twists on the pairs on the diagonal sides. I have one piece
containing plaits of only three half stitches. From my reading it would appear
that it was after this, when the general design changed and more ground was
used, that the different names were used.

It is most confusing

Alex

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arachne.modera...@gmail.com. Photo site:
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