Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
Hi KP Am 03.04.2016 um 14:06 schrieb kp kirchdoerfer: > Hi Erich; ... >> /etc/hosts > > I think this will not help in terms of user friendliness... No it won't but it would at least be correct > >> >> So everything can remain as is, but that does not make the LEAF software >> any better. From my past experience in product management and support it >> is always worth to make software user friendly. If you think that the >> lrcfg menu is adapted to the year 2016, please rethink. > > lrcfg is known to work as it has matured over years, on the other hand it > shows it's age. I can see mold all over :-) > > If something new and fancy is needed, it can be added as lrcfg-ng, but it > should stay (mostly) as-is, until something better catches up with lrcfg and > provide enhancements. I believe we need a real good interface which does not depend on terminal sessions anymore. Most embedded systems have a terminal session, which at least can somehow be enabled but you can achieve most, if not all, of the configuration on a more recent user interface. > > IMHO providing a good and up-to-date documentation with how-to's one can > follow step-by-step etc will help users more than anything else to get his > tasks done. > > You see preferences, how to make LEAF user friendly, vary and seems to be > bound to personal habits, how one tries to solve a task/problem. > > None of us is wrong or right though. It is not a question of being wrong or right. Computer interfaces have changed since the sixties, but they are still von Neumann machines. As I said, I hardly ever use lrcfg. I just went on an exploratory trip and some of the roadsigns just did not match. I don't want to work on lrcfg because I think it is a thing of the past. I might work on some of the webconf interfaces if I find time in the next few months, but of course, things I consider necessary are on top of the list, others will go unnoticed. I still believe though that a good package should provide a good user interface and just calling an editor is IMHO plain lame. cheers ET -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
Hi Erich; Am Samstag, 2. April 2016, 13:31:19 schrieb Erich Titl: > Am 02.04.2016 um 12:00 schrieb Andrew: > > 02.04.2016 10:48, Erich Titl пишет: > ... > > >> You are right, but this is mostly due to the fact that the webconf > >> interface does not attract our developers. Maybe the fact that it is > >> written in shell keeps them away. Even big Cisco and HP routers/switches > >> have quite powerful web interfaces. > > > > AFAIK Cisco 65xx/76xx/ASR/etc are configured just via CLI. For ex: > > http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/ipaddr_dhcp/configuration > > /xe-3s/asr1000/dhcp-xe-3s-asr1000-book/config-dhcp-server-xe.html > Well, I used a number of them in the past and definitely there was a GUI > > >> Yes and the menu entry is completely misleading. > > > > It comes from 3.x (or older) version w/o changes. > > I know and it has been misleading for ages. > > > How it should be named for more clear understanding? > > /etc/hosts I think this will not help in terms of user friendliness... > >>> If you want to see some diag info - IMHO it'll be good to add separate > >>> section with diag commands (like 'ip a' or 'iptraf' if it's available). > >>> but it's easier to enter these commands in shell. > >> > >> That is what I normally do, because I am quite familiar with the shell. > >> > >> - The menu entries are partially misleading and not always useful > >> - I just hate the editor called in the menu, so I prefer to use vi, but > >> that is a very personal choice. > > > > you can configure which editor you want to use. > > I probably could, but then I hardly ever use lrcfg. I would like the > LEAF boxes to be more user friendly, not for myself but for others. > Developers are notoriously bad at user friendlyness, because they don't > need it. > > So everything can remain as is, but that does not make the LEAF software > any better. From my past experience in product management and support it > is always worth to make software user friendly. If you think that the > lrcfg menu is adapted to the year 2016, please rethink. lrcfg is known to work as it has matured over years, on the other hand it shows it's age. If something new and fancy is needed, it can be added as lrcfg-ng, but it should stay (mostly) as-is, until something better catches up with lrcfg and provide enhancements. IMHO providing a good and up-to-date documentation with how-to's one can follow step-by-step etc will help users more than anything else to get his tasks done. You see preferences, how to make LEAF user friendly, vary and seems to be bound to personal habits, how one tries to solve a task/problem. None of us is wrong or right though. kp -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
Am 02.04.2016 um 12:00 schrieb Andrew: > 02.04.2016 10:48, Erich Titl пишет: ... >> You are right, but this is mostly due to the fact that the webconf >> interface does not attract our developers. Maybe the fact that it is >> written in shell keeps them away. Even big Cisco and HP routers/switches >> have quite powerful web interfaces. > AFAIK Cisco 65xx/76xx/ASR/etc are configured just via CLI. For ex: > http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/ipaddr_dhcp/configuration/xe-3s/asr1000/dhcp-xe-3s-asr1000-book/config-dhcp-server-xe.html > Well, I used a number of them in the past and definitely there was a GUI >> Yes and the menu entry is completely misleading. > It comes from 3.x (or older) version w/o changes. I know and it has been misleading for ages. > > How it should be named for more clear understanding? /etc/hosts > >>> If you want to see some diag info - IMHO it'll be good to add separate >>> section with diag commands (like 'ip a' or 'iptraf' if it's available). >>> but it's easier to enter these commands in shell. >> That is what I normally do, because I am quite familiar with the shell. >> >> - The menu entries are partially misleading and not always useful >> - I just hate the editor called in the menu, so I prefer to use vi, but >> that is a very personal choice. > you can configure which editor you want to use. I probably could, but then I hardly ever use lrcfg. I would like the LEAF boxes to be more user friendly, not for myself but for others. Developers are notoriously bad at user friendlyness, because they don't need it. So everything can remain as is, but that does not make the LEAF software any better. From my past experience in product management and support it is always worth to make software user friendly. If you think that the lrcfg menu is adapted to the year 2016, please rethink. cheers ET -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
02.04.2016 10:48, Erich Titl пишет: > Hi Andrew > > Am 02.04.2016 um 00:37 schrieb Andrew: >> 31.03.2016 23:30, Erich Titl пишет: >>> Hi KP >>> >>> some more bugging >>> >>> >>> Network configuration menu >>> >>> 1) interfaces file >>> 2) hosts IP adresses >>> 3) hostname >>> 4) resolv.conf >>> 5) superserver daemon configuration >>> 6) hosts.allow >>> 7) hosts.deny >>> 8) networks >>> >>> q) quit >>> >>> >>> Selection: >>> >>> I tried 1) and I believe the interface configuration in webconf is way >>> better >> it's usual Debian-like network config file. and it's really flexible >> (e.g. you may specify pre-up/up/down actions, configure bridges/vlans >> and so on). >> >> webconf is good for home routers, but home routers isn't a single target >> for LEAF. > You are right, but this is mostly due to the fact that the webconf > interface does not attract our developers. Maybe the fact that it is > written in shell keeps them away. Even big Cisco and HP routers/switches > have quite powerful web interfaces. AFAIK Cisco 65xx/76xx/ASR/etc are configured just via CLI. For ex: http://www.cisco.com/c/en/us/td/docs/ios-xml/ios/ipaddr_dhcp/configuration/xe-3s/asr1000/dhcp-xe-3s-asr1000-book/config-dhcp-server-xe.html And that is not even close to reality as can be seen above. The menu item is plain misleading. >> it's content of /etc/hosts. > Yes and the menu entry is completely misleading. It comes from 3.x (or older) version w/o changes. How it should be named for more clear understanding? >> If you want to see some diag info - IMHO it'll be good to add separate >> section with diag commands (like 'ip a' or 'iptraf' if it's available). >> but it's easier to enter these commands in shell. > That is what I normally do, because I am quite familiar with the shell. > > - The menu entries are partially misleading and not always useful > - I just hate the editor called in the menu, so I prefer to use vi, but > that is a very personal choice. you can configure which editor you want to use. > cheers > > ET > > -- > Transform Data into Opportunity. > Accelerate data analysis in your applications with > Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. > Click to learn more. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 > > ___ > leaf-devel mailing list > leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
Hi Andrew Am 02.04.2016 um 00:37 schrieb Andrew: > 31.03.2016 23:30, Erich Titl пишет: >> Hi KP >> >> some more bugging >> >> >> Network configuration menu >> >> 1) interfaces file >> 2) hosts IP adresses >> 3) hostname >> 4) resolv.conf >> 5) superserver daemon configuration >> 6) hosts.allow >> 7) hosts.deny >> 8) networks >> >>q) quit >> >> >> Selection: >> >> I tried 1) and I believe the interface configuration in webconf is way >> better > it's usual Debian-like network config file. and it's really flexible > (e.g. you may specify pre-up/up/down actions, configure bridges/vlans > and so on). > > webconf is good for home routers, but home routers isn't a single target > for LEAF. You are right, but this is mostly due to the fact that the webconf interface does not attract our developers. Maybe the fact that it is written in shell keeps them away. Even big Cisco and HP routers/switches have quite powerful web interfaces. > >> Then I tried 2) expecting to see the following >> >> >> And that is not even close to reality as can be seen above. The menu >> item is plain misleading. > it's content of /etc/hosts. Yes and the menu entry is completely misleading. > > If you want to see some diag info - IMHO it'll be good to add separate > section with diag commands (like 'ip a' or 'iptraf' if it's available). > but it's easier to enter these commands in shell. That is what I normally do, because I am quite familiar with the shell. - The menu entries are partially misleading and not always useful - I just hate the editor called in the menu, so I prefer to use vi, but that is a very personal choice. cheers ET -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [leaf-devel] more obscure menu items
31.03.2016 23:30, Erich Titl пишет: > Hi KP > > some more bugging > > > Network configuration menu > > 1) interfaces file > 2) hosts IP adresses > 3) hostname > 4) resolv.conf > 5) superserver daemon configuration > 6) hosts.allow > 7) hosts.deny > 8) networks > >q) quit > > > Selection: > > I tried 1) and I believe the interface configuration in webconf is way > better it's usual Debian-like network config file. and it's really flexible (e.g. you may specify pre-up/up/down actions, configure bridges/vlans and so on). webconf is good for home routers, but home routers isn't a single target for LEAF. > Then I tried 2) expecting to see the following > > 3: eth0: mtu 1500 qdisc pfifo_fast > master br0 state DOWN group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 00:0d:b9:04:6e:d8 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > 4: wlan0: mtu 1500 qdisc mq state UP > group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 00:0b:6b:36:bb:cd brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 194.124.158.69/24 brd 194.124.158.255 scope global wlan0 > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > 5: wlan1: mtu 1500 qdisc mq master br0 > state UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 00:0b:6b:33:1e:23 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > 8: br0: mtu 1500 qdisc noqueue state > UP group default qlen 1000 > link/ether 00:0b:6b:33:1e:23 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff > inet 192.168.217.1/24 brd 192.168.217.255 scope global br0 > valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever > > but I was presented with > > 127.0.0.1 localhost > 192.168.1.254 firewall > > # The following lines are desirable for IPv6 capable hosts > ::1 ip6-localhost ip6-loopback > fe00::0 ip6-localnet > ff00::0 ip6-mcastprefix > ff02::1 ip6-allnodes > ff02::2 ip6-allrouters > ff02::3 ip6-allhosts > > And that is not even close to reality as can be seen above. The menu > item is plain misleading. it's content of /etc/hosts. If you want to see some diag info - IMHO it'll be good to add separate section with diag commands (like 'ip a' or 'iptraf' if it's available). but it's easier to enter these commands in shell. > Then I just grumbled and stopped > > cheers > > ET > > > > > > > > > -- > Transform Data into Opportunity. > Accelerate data analysis in your applications with > Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. > Click to learn more. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 > > ___ > leaf-devel mailing list > leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel -- Transform Data into Opportunity. Accelerate data analysis in your applications with Intel Data Analytics Acceleration Library. Click to learn more. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=278785471&iu=/4140 ___ leaf-devel mailing list leaf-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
