Re: Lighter Evenings (Experiment) Bill [HL]
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Markus Kuhn writes: The crudest approach would probably be I would be all for it :-) a) N+S America: use local time of Cuba (~ UT = - 5.5 h) Unless you substitute something other than Cuba, your proposal will never get one inch of traction in USA. And of course, that is the crux of the matter: such decisions have more to do with politics than science or even reason. -- Poul-Henning Kamp | UNIX since Zilog Zeus 3.20 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | TCP/IP since RFC 956 FreeBSD committer | BSD since 4.3-tahoe Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.
Re: Lighter Evenings (Experiment) Bill [HL]
On Dec 18, 2005, at 3:58 PM, Markus Kuhn wrote: Why is it important that our clocks give a +/- 30 minutes approximation of local astronomical time? Unimportant for some purposes. Important for others. Who ranks the relative merit? The key issue is surely a question of interoperability. As it stands now (and has for all of human history), the fundamental standard is the Earth itself (a mirror image of the Sun in the sky). This was true for local apparent time and is true for mean standard time zones. The ITU proposal would replace an extremely portable and durable and recoverable standard (as simple as measuring noon in a particular location on a given date) with a completely ad hoc relationship to some remote ensemble of hyper-technical devices. A bright middle school student could synchronize a clock against mean solar time - from first principles. On the other hand, a nobel laureate might botch the recovery of the monotonic count that is TAI should that count ever become lost. Sure, there seem clear advantages in having midnight happen when most people are asleep, or at least outside extended business hours. So having everyone on UT is not very attractive for those living more than +/-3 hours from the prime meridian. But since most of us sleep at least 6 hours and are not (supposed to be ;-) working for at least 15 hours each day, such a simple requirement could still be achieved with just 3-5 timezones worldwide. Sure, why not? But this is completely orthogonal to the question of the relative importance of leap seconds. No matter how wide we make the time zones, no matter how large an amplitude we allow for daylight saving/summer time, these are still periodic (or purely constant) effects. A leap jump - whether a second or an hour - remains a secular effect. Which is bigger? An hour per year? Or two milliseconds per century? Ill-posed question. It ain't an hour a year compared to an hour after 600 years. Spring forward AND fall back. What it is REALLY is zero hours (+1-1) per year. As small as 2 ms per 100 years is - zero per whatever is smaller. Smaller and more negligible than is the need for leap seconds. The crudest approach would probably be a) N+S America: use local time of Cuba (~ UT - 5.5 h) b) Europe/Africa/Middle east: use local time of Poland/Greece (~ UT + 1.5 h) c) Asia + Australia: use local time of Thailand (~ UT + 6.5 h) Sure, the hours of darkness would vary substantially within each of these zones. But they do already *today* for much of the world, thanks to summer/winder. China understood this a long time ago. I like the chutzpah of it! The pure political theater of trying to convince Washington to keep Havana time, or the serious surrealism of the Senegalese Assemblee Nationale debating the adoption of Peloponnesian Mean Time. Whatever China understands, it amounts to a constant offset, not the slope of a trend line. We aren't talking about apples and oranges, we're talking about apples and the rate of change of qumquats. In fact, it is remarkable that the existence of a significant acceleration (second derivative or quadratic effect) in the need for leap seconds is being asserted as a bogus justification for not issuing leap seconds at all. Rob Seaman National Optical Astronomy Observatory
Re: Lighter Evenings (Experiment) Bill [HL]
Poul-Henning Kamp said: Not strictly on topic but probably of interest - a Bill in the UK House of Lords which I just came across when looking for something else: A Bill To Advance time by one hour throughout the year for an experimental period; and for connected purposes. the entire notion and I belive the welch are not too happy either. Not if you call them that! -- Clive D.W. Feather | Work: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Tel:+44 20 8495 6138 Internet Expert | Home: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Fax:+44 870 051 9937 Demon Internet | WWW: http://www.davros.org | Mobile: +44 7973 377646 Thus plc||
Re: Lighter Evenings (Experiment) Bill [HL]
Poul-Henning Kamp wrote on 2005-12-16 22:44 UTC: Now that EU got extended way east I think everybody expected the silly notion of one timezone for all of EU to die a rapid death but that might just wishfull thinking. Mankind could go even further, abandon the entire notion of time zones being separated by 15� meridians and move on to generous continental time zones. This brings us even back closer to the topic of this list: Why is it important that our clocks give a +/- 30 minutes approximation of local astronomical time? Sure, there seem clear advantages in having midnight happen when most people are asleep, or at least outside extended business hours. So having everyone on UT is not very attractive for those living more than +/-3 hours from the prime meridian. But since most of us sleep at least 6 hours and are not (supposed to be ;-) working for at least 15 hours each day, such a simple requirement could still be achieved with just 3-5 timezones worldwide. The crudest approach would probably be a) N+S America: use local time of Cuba (~ UT - 5.5 h) b) Europe/Africa/Middle east: use local time of Poland/Greece(~ UT + 1.5 h) c) Asia + Australia: use local time of Thailand (~ UT + 6.5 h) Sure, the hours of darkness would vary substantially within each of these zones. But they do already *today* for much of the world, thanks to summer/winder. China understood this a long time ago. Markus -- Markus Kuhn, Computer Laboratory, University of Cambridge http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/ || CB3 0FD, Great Britain
Lighter Evenings (Experiment) Bill [HL]
Not strictly on topic but probably of interest - a Bill in the UK House of Lords which I just came across when looking for something else: http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld200506/ldbills/048/06048.1-i.html A Bill To Advance time by one hour throughout the year for an experimental period; and for connected purposes. Well, at least we'd be in sync with most of the rest of the EC. Don't know if it'll get anywhere, of course. Ed Davies.