Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Fernando Frediani]

Well, schedule means a bit of organization and commitment around 
something, I personally don't fear it.


I am only putting this point here because something happen the recent 
past (including during the merge agreements) that justifies. And again 
nothing happens if a feature is skipped.But the main point is the lack 
of someone to gather things together.


This isn't some exotic, works pretty well for several very well known 
community projects and don't seem to cause any harm.


Best regards,
Fernando

On 05/05/2018 17:33, Alberto Bursi wrote:
They already had jow or someone else sent messages to call for kernel 
updates and sending patches before the release, and got stuff done by 
now.


As per the last answer of John Crispin to this mail thread, they will 
release at the beginning of next week.


Developers choose freely what they prefer to work on, and when and 
everything, as it is not a job.


I really don't see how this could have been improved without forcing 
people to do things for the "best interests of the project", and if 
you can't force people then the only thing left for this Release 
Coordinator is declaring releases at fixed dates for the sake of 
schedule.


-Alberto

On 05/05/2018 21:12, Fernando Frediani wrote:
I didn't mention forcing people at any point. Just having someone to 
be in charge in order to organize certain things, get people's 
availability and make more thing happen.


With regards schedule the lack of one seems not doing much good, so 
having one has the potential to improve things. And again, having a 
schedule doesn't necessarily mean every single point will get done, 
but certainly will get more attention and commitment from most of 
people around something in common. It will not be a big thing if a 
feature was skipped.


As mentioned in the other reply perhaps Release Coordinator could do 
this job fine without changing much of the whole thing.


Regards
Fernando

On 05/05/2018 15:55, Alberto Bursi wrote:

This isn't a job where you can force people to do anything.

Also, I'm not a fan of half-assing or leaving out things for the 
sake of a schedule.



-Alberto

On 05/05/2018 20:41, Fernando Frediani wrote:
One characteristic from OpenWrt, different from other projects is 
the lack of a leader or a person who can gather others together, 
make some decisions or push for them to happen. If one doesn't like 
this title it can also be "Project Manager" or "Project 
Coordinator". This, in my view, makes a big difference for things 
to flow in time.


Has anyone heard that saying: "A dog with many owners starves"

Perhaps it is the time to adjust the Rules 
(https://openwrt.org/rules) and add something to make it exist in 
benefit of the project.


Fernando

On 05/05/2018 07:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can 
simply

move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen 
 wrote:

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so 
branching

off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and 
rather than
focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut 
hardware and
packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some 
heart ache
when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do 
need to be
made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team 
and other

packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means

Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[John Crispin]

On 06/05/18 09:43, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Dear John,

That is most excellent to hear :) Please disregard my previous 
comment. Where did this decision take place by the way? I tried 
searching the mailing list but couldn't find anything. My apologies 
for bothering the mailing list with this porposal while it was already 
taken care of.


Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Sat, May 5, 2018, 19:57 John Crispin > wrote:




On 05/05/18 12:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
> features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
> date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn
things
> around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
> will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that
date
> the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
> features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
> feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
> it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
> stating:
>
> -What he/she would like to include
> -Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
> -How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
> -Perhaps a request for help implementing said change
>
> Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
> there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
> postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can
simply
> move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
> the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
> everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable
date?
> And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
> at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
> plan at said date?
>
> Yours sincerely,
>
> Jaap Buurman
>
> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen
> wrote:
>> On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
>>> I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so
branching
>>> off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense
>>
>> I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and
rather than
>> focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut
hardware and
>> packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some
heart ache
>> when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do
need to be
>> made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core
team and other
>> packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support
from the
>> community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
>> something personally to the core team, so those risks should be
considered.
>>
>> - Eric
>>
>>
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we agreed already to branch on friday but delayed it till start of
the
week as we ran out of time before calling it a day.
 John



Hi,

please dont top post. The discussion happened here on the ML. we 
exchanged mails that we will do a 18.06 and now with june coming up we 
exchanged 5 lines on IRC trying to figure out when we have time to do 
the branching. this whole discussion is just creating FUD. we announced 
18.06 almost 2 months ago and now with june coming up we are executing 
the plan. no more no less. i really dont understand the commotion. 
thanks to alberto for providing some useful comments to the discussion.


    John


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Fernando Frediani]

I didn't mention forcing people at any point. Just having someone to be 
in charge in order to organize certain things, get people's availability 
and make more thing happen.


With regards schedule the lack of one seems not doing much good, so 
having one has the potential to improve things. And again, having a 
schedule doesn't necessarily mean every single point will get done, but 
certainly will get more attention and commitment from most of people 
around something in common. It will not be a big thing if a feature was 
skipped.


As mentioned in the other reply perhaps Release Coordinator could do 
this job fine without changing much of the whole thing.


Regards
Fernando

On 05/05/2018 15:55, Alberto Bursi wrote:

This isn't a job where you can force people to do anything.

Also, I'm not a fan of half-assing or leaving out things for the sake 
of a schedule.



-Alberto

On 05/05/2018 20:41, Fernando Frediani wrote:
One characteristic from OpenWrt, different from other projects is the 
lack of a leader or a person who can gather others together, make 
some decisions or push for them to happen. If one doesn't like this 
title it can also be "Project Manager" or "Project Coordinator". 
This, in my view, makes a big difference for things to flow in time.


Has anyone heard that saying: "A dog with many owners starves"

Perhaps it is the time to adjust the Rules 
(https://openwrt.org/rules) and add something to make it exist in 
benefit of the project.


Fernando

On 05/05/2018 07:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can simply
move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen 
 wrote:

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so 
branching

off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and 
rather than

focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware and
packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some 
heart ache
when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do 
need to be
made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team 
and other

packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
something personally to the core team, so those risks should be 
considered.


- Eric


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Alberto Bursi]

This isn't a job where you can force people to do anything.

Also, I'm not a fan of half-assing or leaving out things for the sake of 
a schedule.



-Alberto

On 05/05/2018 20:41, Fernando Frediani wrote:
One characteristic from OpenWrt, different from other projects is the 
lack of a leader or a person who can gather others together, make some 
decisions or push for them to happen. If one doesn't like this title 
it can also be "Project Manager" or "Project Coordinator". This, in my 
view, makes a big difference for things to flow in time.


Has anyone heard that saying: "A dog with many owners starves"

Perhaps it is the time to adjust the Rules (https://openwrt.org/rules) 
and add something to make it exist in benefit of the project.


Fernando

On 05/05/2018 07:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can simply
move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen 
 wrote:

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so 
branching

off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and 
rather than

focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware and
packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some 
heart ache
when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do need 
to be
made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team 
and other

packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
something personally to the core team, so those risks should be 
considered.


- Eric


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Fernando Frediani]

One characteristic from OpenWrt, different from other projects is the 
lack of a leader or a person who can gather others together, make some 
decisions or push for them to happen. If one doesn't like this title it 
can also be "Project Manager" or "Project Coordinator". This, in my 
view, makes a big difference for things to flow in time.


Has anyone heard that saying: "A dog with many owners starves"

Perhaps it is the time to adjust the Rules (https://openwrt.org/rules) 
and add something to make it exist in benefit of the project.


Fernando

On 05/05/2018 07:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can simply
move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen  wrote:

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:

I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so branching
off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and rather than
focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware and
packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some heart ache
when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do need to be
made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team and other
packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
something personally to the core team, so those risks should be considered.

- Eric


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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[John Crispin]

On 05/05/18 12:27, Jaap Buurman wrote:

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can simply
move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen  wrote:

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:

I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so branching
off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and rather than
focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware and
packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some heart ache
when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do need to be
made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team and other
packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
something personally to the core team, so those risks should be considered.

- Eric


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we agreed already to branch on friday but delayed it till start of the 
week as we ran out of time before calling it a day.

    John



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Jaap Buurman]

Hi all,

I feel like everybody is just waiting for everybody to agree what
features we want in before coming up with the next step of picking a
date. Obviously this isn't working out very well. Why not turn things
around? Pick a date in a few weeks time on which the Master branch
will be split to a 18.0X branch. If nobody complains before that date
the branch goes on as planned. People can obviously get in the
features they want before said date. If somebody deems a particular
feature very important to be included in this branch, but feels like
it will not be finished before said date, he/she can request a delay
stating:

-What he/she would like to include
-Why this is so important to be included before the branch.
-How much extra time this will need by proposing a new date
-Perhaps a request for help implementing said change

Should this proposal be accepted, we will reschedule the date from
there. If the other people don't think it is important enough to
postpone the release, the old date will stand. This way, we can simply
move forward if nobody complains about a particular date instead of
the waiting around for others that is going on right now. What does
everybody else think of this idea? What seems like a reasonable date?
And who would be willing to take on the task of splitting the branch
at said date to make sure we'll be actually moving forward with the
plan at said date?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 4:41 AM, Eric Luehrsen  wrote:
> On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
>>
>> I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so branching
>> off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense
>
>
> I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and rather than
> focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware and
> packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some heart ache
> when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions do need to be
> made. Without an official release to punctuate both the core team and other
> packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing support from the
> community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this project means
> something personally to the core team, so those risks should be considered.
>
> - Eric
>
>
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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Eric Luehrsen]

On 05/01/2018 10:47 AM, Hannu Nyman wrote:
I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so branching 
off the 18.0X rather soon might make sense


I would also think its time to branch 18.[something-soon], and rather 
than focus on work that needs yet to be completed, look to cut hardware 
and packages that are not ready for a release. There is always some 
heart ache when such decisions are made, but at a point those decisions 
do need to be made. Without an official release to punctuate both the 
core team and other packagers hard work, OpenWrt/LEDE could risk losing 
support from the community and its limited sponsorship. I imagine this 
project means something personally to the core team, so those risks 
should be considered.


- Eric

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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Hannu Nyman]

I think that the main source tree is in pretty good shape, so branching off 
the 18.0X rather soon might make sense.


There is alweays the next new exiting feature to be included in, but if the 
intention is still to make several major releases per year, the next feature 
will get into the next release rather soon.


So little stuff gets backported to 17.01, that a possible 17.01.5 would be 
just a quick temporary fix, not a proper solution. jow was talking about that 
ealier, and a 17.01.5 might be ok as a stopgap or "safe upgrade" from 17.01.x.


If 17.01.5 is really made, at least the mvebu mwlwifi driver should be 
updated first. 17.01 still has the ancient June 2017 version of mwlwifi 
driver, while master was recently upgrdaed to 2018-03-30 that is likely the 
best driver version so far.




Jaap Buurman kirjoitti 1.5.2018 klo 16:44:

Dear all,

If a 18.06 release is still going to require quite a bit of work, I
propose we should look at another 17.01 point release. That should be
a nice stopgap in the form of bug fixes for people that are still
running a stable release. 17.01.4 is getting ancient to be honest.
What do you think?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Rich Brown  wrote:

Hi folks,

It has been exactly a month since Hauke sent his note recommending a release 
process for the next OpenWrt stable. 
http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-dev/2018-April/011704.html I have not 
seen any further discussion of this proposal.

Given that the OpenWrt/LEDE merger was founded on the desire to improve 
communication, I am concerned that we're not talking to each other about 
important questions.

It would be OK if we all agreed that we have too many pieces in flux to talk 
about a stable release. But I don't think it's too soon to talk about pausing 
the project evolution briefly and making the hard decisions about what's in, 
what's out. Then most people (who're unwilling to run a snapshot) can get the 
benefit of all your effort over the last year.

Thanks for listening,

Rich



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Re: [LEDE-DEV] 18.06 Status?

[Jaap Buurman]

Dear all,

If a 18.06 release is still going to require quite a bit of work, I
propose we should look at another 17.01 point release. That should be
a nice stopgap in the form of bug fixes for people that are still
running a stable release. 17.01.4 is getting ancient to be honest.
What do you think?

Yours sincerely,

Jaap Buurman

On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Rich Brown  wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> It has been exactly a month since Hauke sent his note recommending a release 
> process for the next OpenWrt stable. 
> http://lists.infradead.org/pipermail/lede-dev/2018-April/011704.html I have 
> not seen any further discussion of this proposal.
>
> Given that the OpenWrt/LEDE merger was founded on the desire to improve 
> communication, I am concerned that we're not talking to each other about 
> important questions.
>
> It would be OK if we all agreed that we have too many pieces in flux to talk 
> about a stable release. But I don't think it's too soon to talk about pausing 
> the project evolution briefly and making the hard decisions about what's in, 
> what's out. Then most people (who're unwilling to run a snapshot) can get the 
> benefit of all your effort over the last year.
>
> Thanks for listening,
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
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