Re: What is the proper way to recognize an unrealized gain/loss?
@Ajoeibin "*It would appear that you really didn't understand what I did.*" I only know what you *said* you did: *1. cash (or funds) decreases whilst assets (whatever listing you need/desire) increases 2. cash or funds or currency increases whilst assets (whichever listing you used) decreases* At no time in that post did you include a category for profit or loss although I notice that you have now done so in a subsequent post: *Asset disposal by sale with gainDr Cash $1500Dr Accumulated Depreciation $2000Cr Gain on sale $500Cr Machinery $3000 * Although this works (assuming that Gain on sale is an income category) some tax jurisdictions prefer that you record what you get for an asset sale as income and the depreciated value of the asset sold as an expense (this is how shops are supposed to do their bookkeeping). It is much easier to do this if you actually have the sales and cost of assets sold as income and expense categories respectively rather than trying to piece it all together from the asset category alone. So I still recommend doing the posting this way: Dr Cash $1500 Cr Income from sale$1500 Dr Cost of assets sold $1000 Dr Accumulated Depreciation $2000 Cr Machinery $3000 On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 9:45:59 PM UTC+8 Ajoeibin wrote: > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:34 AM psionl0 wrote: > >> @Ajoeibin The problem with doing it your way is that at the end of the >> exercise, your assets is now a negative value instead of zero and rather >> than the gain/loss being included in income, it is just recorded as a >> change in the value of your assets. >> >> That is why I use Asset Sales as an income category and Cost of Sales as >> an expense category (so I can write off the cost of the assets sold). >> >> > re-reading I'd bet that someone is going to mis-understand (again!) > > (looking for accounts (GIFI) in this area I find that for personal > accumulation there is a 'new' model > - - this is called the 'cost accumulation model' rather than the 'fair > value model' used in business > acquisition and sales) > > example (specific for business) > > Scenario 2: Disposal by Asset Sale with a Gain > Suppose that at the end of the second year, Motors Inc. decided to sell > the machinery to another company. At that time, the accumulated > depreciation was $2,000. Therefore, the total book value of the machinery > was $1,000 (machinery value minus accumulated depreciation). However, the > company agreed to sell the machinery for $1,500. Thus, Motors Inc. must > recognize the gain from the sale. The journal entry for the disposal should > be: > > Asset disposal by sale with gain > > Dr Cash $1500 > Dr Accumulated Depreciation $2000 > Cr Gain on sale $500 > Cr Machinery $3000 > > One should see 'Machinery' as a form of 'Asset'. > > So - - - end result - - - the way that I'm doing my records may not be the > most succinct > but it does cover ALL the bases and in a very orderly pattern. > > This whole area gets quite a bit murkier if one is acquiring > stocks/options/other instruments > as part of a retirement vehicle - - - at that point all of this gets some > other inputs so that > a present value can be achieved without needing an actual sale to display > value. > > HTH > > Regards > > > > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/fd732ee3-0db7-406a-9dcb-f27be0139e26n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: ledger python module documentation
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 6:55 PM lipp f wrote: > I have seen python/demo.py in the distribution but I am looking for > somethin more detaled. Like a standard python module documentation. > > Is it available anywhere? TIA. > > > Went looking at the code - - - - IANAP but I like the commenting! There would seem to be enough comments to make understanding what's going on fairly straightforward. What benefit does running this module give? Regards -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/CAPpdf58VDQkZi4TNSL12TrjQVg1LcXJttkx5rsUPw4Q1kJb%3DVg%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: ledger python module documentation
> "MM" == Martin Michlmayr writes: >> I have seen python/demo.py in the distribution but I am looking for >> somethin more detaled. Like a standard python module documentation. >> >> Is it available anywhere? TIA. MM> Unfortunately not. There's just the code, in the py*.cc modules, from which you can determine which types and methods are available. John -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/m27derlyqw.fsf%40newartisans.com.
Re: ledger python module documentation
Actually the module itself has pretty good documentation. $ python >>> import ledger >>> help(ledger) ... and everithing is there. On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:55:13 PM UTC-4 lipp f wrote: > I have seen python/demo.py in the distribution but I am looking for > somethin more detaled. Like a standard python module documentation. > > Is it available anywhere? TIA. -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/c117d294-47c3-40b3-8a26-625a0368dfd9n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: ledger python module documentation
* lipp f [2021-10-05 16:55]: > I have seen python/demo.py in the distribution but I am looking for > somethin more detaled. Like a standard python module documentation. > > Is it available anywhere? TIA. Unfortunately not. -- Martin Michlmayr https://www.cyrius.com/ -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/YVzmURU3UHLhbrNW%40jirafa.cyrius.com.
ledger python module documentation
I have seen python/demo.py in the distribution but I am looking for somethin more detaled. Like a standard python module documentation. Is it available anywhere? TIA. -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/69a28586-c75c-4002-913d-1c8a4cf54d69n%40googlegroups.com.
Re: What is the proper way to recognize an unrealized gain/loss?
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:34 AM psionl0 wrote: > @Ajoeibin The problem with doing it your way is that at the end of the > exercise, your assets is now a negative value instead of zero and rather > than the gain/loss being included in income, it is just recorded as a > change in the value of your assets. > > That is why I use Asset Sales as an income category and Cost of Sales as > an expense category (so I can write off the cost of the assets sold). > > re-reading I'd bet that someone is going to mis-understand (again!) (looking for accounts (GIFI) in this area I find that for personal accumulation there is a 'new' model - - this is called the 'cost accumulation model' rather than the 'fair value model' used in business acquisition and sales) example (specific for business) Scenario 2: Disposal by Asset Sale with a Gain Suppose that at the end of the second year, Motors Inc. decided to sell the machinery to another company. At that time, the accumulated depreciation was $2,000. Therefore, the total book value of the machinery was $1,000 (machinery value minus accumulated depreciation). However, the company agreed to sell the machinery for $1,500. Thus, Motors Inc. must recognize the gain from the sale. The journal entry for the disposal should be: Asset disposal by sale with gain Dr Cash $1500 Dr Accumulated Depreciation $2000 Cr Gain on sale $500 Cr Machinery $3000 One should see 'Machinery' as a form of 'Asset'. So - - - end result - - - the way that I'm doing my records may not be the most succinct but it does cover ALL the bases and in a very orderly pattern. This whole area gets quite a bit murkier if one is acquiring stocks/options/other instruments as part of a retirement vehicle - - - at that point all of this gets some other inputs so that a present value can be achieved without needing an actual sale to display value. HTH Regards -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/CAPpdf58qmDX3JtFkvxxmQOOy16gaNHLTAzrCByp%2Bc0P24_5RFQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: What is the proper way to recognize an unrealized gain/loss?
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 6:32 AM o1bigtenor wrote: > > > On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:34 AM psionl0 wrote: > >> @Ajoeibin The problem with doing it your way is that at the end of the >> exercise, your assets is now a negative value instead of zero and rather >> than the gain/loss being included in income, it is just recorded as a >> change in the value of your assets. >> >> > It would appear that you really didn't understand what I did. > There is no way that you would be diminishing your assets - - - - dunno > how you would even get there. > 1. you purchase asset x at value y > this is accomplished by a disbursement from funds (cash or some other > similar) and an increase in 'assets' > any fees/costs are dealt with amounts coming from your funds (again cash > or otherwise) > 2. you sell asset x for z (it doesn't matter what this value is!!) > you asset value is reduced by EXACTLY the value that it was originally > logged into your system > any difference between z and y is now logged into 'income' where again it > really doesn't matter if the number is positive or negative > any fees/costs are dealt with amounts coming from your funds (again cash > or otherwise) > > You made the assumption that the sale price that I would list would be > what I actually sold the item for. > That is incorrect and imo that would only be correct if you were entering > that value in 'Income' initially. > > This misunderstanding is what causes difficulty for most when they look at > 'present value' on any asset. > 'Present value', imo and maybe only imo, has absolutely no connection with > 'realized value'. > My process was developed from the need of tracking assets that are > predominantly depreciating assets. > That process enables me to account for any change in value. > > The process where the sale value is the value of the item for removal from > the asset list would seem to > be much more prevalent when one is holding assets that are predominantly > expected to 'appreciate'. > But even given such logic by removing an asset from a portfolio at its > sale value directly without > accounting for any changes from its listed purchase value - - - - well - - > - for me that's just messy > thinking - - - - I'd bet that any forensic accounting investigation by tax > authorities would be quite > enthused by finding such recording. > > This careful and very orderly statement of every part of every transaction > is the beauty of double entry > accounting. Being able to lay out and balance all the parts of any > transaction clearly is perhaps the > major reason that I use ledger-cli - - - most other record keeping systems > seem to expect the user > (inputer) to be different from the organizer and the 'analyzer' (thinker) > is yet again a different entity. > As I get to wear all of the hats in my businesses - - - - well I' hugely > into the KISS principle and anything > to make things easier. (This gets challenged any time there are assets > that are used for both business > and personal purposes.) > > Regards > > (remove previous version - - - minor editing - - - - not enough checking before sending!) -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/CAPpdf5-w1eNuzNgUvcHayi06xoUXq6hMv0B6C7%3D-dHZCf9KYqA%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: What is the proper way to recognize an unrealized gain/loss?
On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 1:34 AM psionl0 wrote: > @Ajoeibin The problem with doing it your way is that at the end of the > exercise, your assets is now a negative value instead of zero and rather > than the gain/loss being included in income, it is just recorded as a > change in the value of your assets. > > It would appear that you really didn't understand what I did. There is no way that you would be diminision your assets - - - - dunno how you would even get there. 1. you purchase asset x at value y this is accomplished by a disbursement from funds (cash or some other similar) and an increase in 'assets' any fees/costs are dealt with amounts coming from your funds (again cash or otherwise) 2. you sell asset x for z (it doesn't matter what this value is!!) you asset value is reduced by EXACTLY the value that it was originally logged into your system any difference between z and y is now logged into 'income' where again it really doesn't matter if the number is positive or negative any fees/costs are dealt with amounts coming from your funds (again cash or otherwise) You made the assumption that the sale price that I would list would be what I actually sold the item for. That is incorrect and imo that would only be correct if you were entering that value in 'Income' initially. This misunderstanding is what causes difficulty for most when they look at 'present value' on any asset. 'Present value', imo and maybe only imo, has absolutely no connection with 'realized value'. My process was developed from the need of tracking assets that are predominantly depreciating assets. That process enables me to account for any change in value. The process where the sale value is the value of the item for removal from the asset list would seem to be much more prevalent when one is holding assets that are predominantly expected to 'appreciate'. But even given such logic by removing an asset from a portfolio at its sale value directly without accounting for any changes from its listed purchase value - - - - well - - - for me that's just messy thinking - - - - I'd bet that any forensic accounting investigation by tax authorities would be quite enthused by finding such recording. This careful and very orderly statement of every part of every transaction is the beauty of double entry accounting. Being able to lay out and balance all the parts of any transaction clearly is perhaps the major reason that I use ledger-cli - - - most other record keeping systems seem to expect the user (inputer) to be different from the organizer and the 'analyzer' (thinker) is yet again a different entity. As I get to wear all of the hats in my businesses - - - - well I' hugely into the KISS principle and anything to make things easier. (This gets challenged any time there are assets that are used for both business and personal purposes.) Regards -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Ledger" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ledger-cli+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/ledger-cli/CAPpdf5-7wdvX_Vvc7yzWzQQFrNfD9t3k8t6MboMFMzRMoQFOjA%40mail.gmail.com.
Re: What is the proper way to recognize an unrealized gain/loss?
@Ajoeibin The problem with doing it your way is that at the end of the
exercise, your assets is now a negative value instead of zero and rather
than the gain/loss being included in income, it is just recorded as a
change in the value of your assets.
That is why I use Asset Sales as an income category and Cost of Sales as an
expense category (so I can write off the cost of the assets sold).
On Tuesday, October 5, 2021 at 7:23:28 AM UTC+8 Jasel17212 wrote:
> After much research and tons of trial and error, I landed on the following
> solution. It's simple and elegant and seems to achieve my goal, even if
> there appears to be a minor bug (see below). Ironically, I was led down
> this path by a post I found elsewhere concerning hledger. I figured I
> would document my findings for those looking for a solution to this problem
> in the future.
>
> 2019/03/18 * Buy xx
> Assets:Investing:ABC Securities:xx5.37578 xx @
> $26.725424031
> Equity:Opening Balances
>
> 2019/03/19 * Sell xx
> Assets:Investing:ABC Securities:xx -5.37578 xx
> {$26.725424031} @ $44.373095625
> Assets:Investing:ABC Securities:Cash $238.54
> Income:Capital Gains:Realized
>
> After making these entries, my ABC Securities:Cash balance is correct, and
> the balance report balances to $0.00.
>
> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit bal
> --depth=1 -e 2019-03-20
>
> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>
>0
>
> If I run the same report with the --unrealized flag, I still see the
> $94.87 show up in the unrealized gain category, and I see a balance for the
> same amount. This seems like a bug to me. If this report result is correct
> based on my journal entries above, I could use some help with understanding
> the logic.
>
> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit bal
> --depth=2 -e 2019-03-20 --unrealized
>
> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
> $-xxx,xxx.xxOpening Balances
> $-94.87Unrealized Gains
> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>
> $-94.87
>
> Thanks!
> JL
>
> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 9:18:40 PM UTC-5 Jasel17212 wrote:
>
>> It seems that the order of the transactions matter. If I swap the
>> entries I get the following:
>>
>> 2019/03/19 * Sell xx
>> Assets:Investing:ABC Securities:xx -5.37578 xx @
>> $26.725424031
>> Expenses:Investing:ABC Securities:Cost of Sale $143.67
>> Income:Investing:ABC Securities:Sales -5.37578 xx @
>> $44.373095625
>> Assets:Investing:ABC Securities:Cash$238.54
>>
>> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit bal
>> --depth=1 -e 2019-03-20
>>
>> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
>> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>>
>>0
>>
>> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit bal
>> --depth=2 -e 2019-03-20 --unrealized
>>
>> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
>> $-xxx,xxx.xxOpening Balances
>> $-94.87Unrealized Gains
>> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>>
>> $-94.87
>>
>> That seems right to me.
>>
>> I would appreciate any other perspectives on this topic.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> JL
>>
>> On Sunday, October 3, 2021 at 8:52:52 PM UTC-5 Jasel17212 wrote:
>>
>>> That seems to get me a step closer, but I still see a balance of $94.87
>>> when I run my balance reports.
>>>
>>> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit
>>> bal --depth=1 -e 2019-03-20
>>>
>>> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
>>> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>>>
>>> $94.87
>>>
>>> The same report with the --unrealized flag also shows the same balance,
>>> but the unrealized category is now gone.
>>>
>>> ledger -f register.ldg --price-db price_db.txt -V --strict --explicit
>>> bal --depth=2 -e 2019-03-20 --unrealized
>>>
>>> $xxx,xxx.xx Assets
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Equity
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xxOpening Balances
>>> $xxx,xxx.xx Expenses
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Income
>>> $-xxx,xxx.xx Liabilities
>>>
>>> $94.87
>>>
>>> I'm missing something here. How do I record the $94.87 as a capital
>>> gain and
