[OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
Message: 3 Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2014 02:38:07 +0200 From: Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com To: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtualsurvey Message-ID: 2c0901c2-d759-4bbe-b330-ca80303f5...@gmail.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Am 07/apr/2014 um 02:24 schrieb Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com: You can always file for a declaratory judgment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment interesting, wouldn't it be a good idea to try this for deriving facts from google sat or street view? On the other hand this would maybe not work out for OSMF with their seat in London? In European jurisdiction with its database doctrine those will probably be protected also when deriving uncopyrightable facts Wikimapia also doesn't have a permission from Google to use its sat imagery to build their maps: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WikiMapia#Licensing . An on-going discussion in their forum was locked and several members tried to derail the topic towards the inquirer: http://wikimapia.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1t=10055start=10. It seems that Wikimapia has also this concern in mind. Their usage of Google material is rather obvious and they've been getting away with it for five years... regards, Paulo ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
This is obviously a legal grey area and until it ends up in court I suspect it will remain a grey area. However, I feel what IS black and white is that if we were to officially use Google StreetView or any non-open source to build our data then we should expect a lawsuit from Google or any other owner of said service/medium/technology. Also, we should remember that their legal budget will be much bigger than ours. In my opinion, we can only have one stance and that is such services are not available for us to use as a source for our database. We should, however, approach Google et al and ask them if they prohibit such use, I'm sure they'll say that we can't use it, but at least we'll know. To use any such service without express permission risks EVERYTHING, we would be leaving a door open for Google et al to file against us in the future and OSM could just descend into a legal black hole. Google would love that! We MUST be whiter than white. The Open in OpenStreetMap is a responsibility as well as a right and to protect that right we must act responsibly. Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 05/04/2014 16:50, Paulo Carvalho wrote: Dear fellow mappers, Let me present myself to you. I'm a OSM mapper from the Brazil community and a question rose there which caused a split in the group regarding Google Street View to perform virtual surveys, such as taking notes of house numbers and plotting them in the maps. After reading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#2a._Can_I_trace_data_from_Google_Maps.2FNokia_Maps.2F3F , I was pondering about the impossibility of copyright and licenses apply to facts and reality (not regarding philosophical aspects). Google Street View photos depict reality or facts, thus I could use them to observe reality and derive interpretations which would be genuine creative work. It would be illegal to use the images in Mapillary, for instance, but the facts depicted by the images are not property of Google. Your thoughts, please Paulo Carvalho ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
I think the License Working Group would echo exactly what Jonathan says. While it does not solve the problem of being able to map where there are no mappers, may I also seize the opportunity to promote John McKerrell's excellent OpenStreetView? It is a great under-exploited tool! http://openstreetview.org/ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Openstreetview Single photo and bulk upload works well. I am slowly adding my collection of 40,000+ OSM survey photos in the hope that other mappers will be able squeeze out even more map detail. You can choose from a variety of licenses for the actual photo, but the photo metadata is CC0. Mike On 07/04/2014 17:16, jonathan wrote: This is obviously a legal grey area and until it ends up in court I suspect it will remain a grey area. However, I feel what IS black and white is that if we were to officially use Google StreetView or any non-open source to build our data then we should expect a lawsuit from Google or any other owner of said service/medium/technology. Also, we should remember that their legal budget will be much bigger than ours. In my opinion, we can only have one stance and that is such services are not available for us to use as a source for our database. We should, however, approach Google et al and ask them if they prohibit such use, I'm sure they'll say that we can't use it, but at least we'll know. To use any such service without express permission risks EVERYTHING, we would be leaving a door open for Google et al to file against us in the future and OSM could just descend into a legal black hole. Google would love that! We MUST be whiter than white. The Open in OpenStreetMap is a responsibility as well as a right and to protect that right we must act responsibly. Jonathan http://bigfatfrog67.me On 05/04/2014 16:50, Paulo Carvalho wrote: Dear fellow mappers, Let me present myself to you. I'm a OSM mapper from the Brazil community and a question rose there which caused a split in the group regarding Google Street View to perform virtual surveys, such as taking notes of house numbers and plotting them in the maps. After reading http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Legal_FAQ#2a._Can_I_trace_data_from_Google_Maps.2FNokia_Maps.2F3F , I was pondering about the impossibility of copyright and licenses apply to facts and reality (not regarding philosophical aspects). Google Street View photos depict reality or facts, thus I could use them to observe reality and derive interpretations which would be genuine creative work. It would be illegal to use the images in Mapillary, for instance, but the facts depicted by the images are not property of Google. Your thoughts, please Paulo Carvalho ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Community Guideline - Regional Cuts
Going back several years, Flickr started using OpenStreetMap as a base map for some but not all cities around the world. As a community, we were happy with that. But it does mean that we are saying the you publish a global map and have parts of it coming from OpenStreetMap without triggering share-alike on the rest. We have been asked about the Does and Don'ts. As a reality-check, I would therefore like us to have a guideline that protects the principles behind share-alike and encourages use of OpenStreetMap within large-scale or global electronic maps. Here is the proposed wording: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Open_Data_License/Regional_Cuts_-_Guideline I have three questions for you: 1) Is it basically OK with you personally? (Reality check!) 2) What is the smallest size we should allow? If it done at a continent level, I think no one would see a problem. But if we go to a smaller size, then there comes a point where map makers clearly avoid any responsibility to help improve our data by taking a village here, a village there where OSM is best and using other non-public data elsewhere. A win-win is to say OK you use our data but we want you to take some good, some bad so that you have an incentive to help fill in the bad. One option would be to limit to whole countries, whatever size. Another, which I personally favour, is cities/greater metropolitan areas. See more on the wiki page. 3) Are you OK with the wording allowing adjustment of roads, railways etc across boundaries without triggering share-alike? There seems to be no public value(?). See wiki page for more discussion. Mike Michael Collinson License Working Group ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
Most has already been said on this topic. Just one comment on the, superficially sane sounding, idea of getting a declaratory judgement: forgetting the ethical side of it (do we really want to use data collected by somebody that doesn't want us to do so?), we would need such a judgement in -every- jurisdiction where we would want people to freely use our data. That is so obviously balmy that i don't think it needs further discussion. Simon 07.04.2014 02:38, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer: Am 07/apr/2014 um 02:24 schrieb Eugene Alvin Villar sea...@gmail.com mailto:sea...@gmail.com: You can always file for a declaratory judgment: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaratory_judgment interesting, wouldn't it be a good idea to try this for deriving facts from google sat or street view? On the other hand this would maybe not work out for OSMF with their seat in London? In European jurisdiction with its database doctrine those will probably be protected also when deriving uncopyrightable facts cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
Am 07/apr/2014 um 19:57 schrieb Simon Poole si...@poole.ch: forgetting the ethical side of it (do we really want to use data collected by somebody that doesn't want us to do so?), from an ethical point of view you could also see it like this: as the information (geographic facts) in the data does not belong to them (but to everybody), why should they be able to put restrictions on the use? (undue appropriation) we would need such a judgement in -every- jurisdiction where we would want people to freely use our data. That is so obviously balmy that i don't think it needs further discussion. +1 (sweat of the brow) cheers, Martin ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
[OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey
Message: 4 Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2014 18:04:58 +0200 From: Michael Collinson m...@ayeltd.biz To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Using Google Street View to perform virtual survey Message-ID: 5342ccaa.8080...@ayeltd.biz Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; Format=flowed I think the License Working Group would echo exactly what Jonathan says. While it does not solve the problem of being able to map where there are no mappers, may I also seize the opportunity to promote John McKerrell's excellent OpenStreetView? It is a great under-exploited tool! http://openstreetview.org/ http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Openstreetview Single photo and bulk upload works well. I am slowly adding my collection of 40,000+ OSM survey photos in the hope that other mappers will be able squeeze out even more map detail. You can choose from a variety of licenses for the actual photo, but the photo metadata is CC0. Mike Someone told me OSV was not currently being develped. Is this true? regards, Paulo ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
