Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
On what basis do they claim ownership of the routes, exactly? As I understand it, many of these routes link up lots of little trails that had been around for decades. How did copyright get transferred from the people who created the trails to the FFRP? Or do they claim ownership only over new sections? Or only over a particular representation? They established a route that for instance allows to from city A to city B but not with the short way. Instead, it is going left and right to visit points of interest, alpine hutch and so on. They claim that such a work is an original work. For a comparison, I would say it is like a tourist car route. The castle route (or usually wine routes in France ;-) is using existing roads (national, local...) to visit a maximum castles. Along the route, you will find signpost marked castle route. Eric ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: Are they aware that all the data has been created independently, by surveying the trail - not by actually copying their data? I think you mix two things : the physical trails, paths which are not copyrighted and not discussed here. And the route, the itinerary which is all trails, paths, roads linked together and is the original work, the creation which is considered as copyrightable in France (as soon as it is considered as enough original). Pieren ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
-Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com wrote: - To: Licensing and other legal discussions. legal-talk@openstreetmap.org From: Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com Date: 22/02/2013 03:12AM Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: First issue : it is the hiking route names themselves. For all of them created by the FFRP, the names are registered trademarks and cannot be used without permission (see question below). Second issue : the routes themselves are copyrighted. Hi Pieren, I am also not a lawyer, but here's my two cents. First, it would be really said if we lost the GR routes. I recently hiked about half of the GR20, using the OSM route of course. So I don't think we should give up easily - they're so valuable. On the trademark front, it should be easy to establish if they have a genuine complaint. If they do, I think we can change the names without losing too much - even if had to call them French hiking route 20 or something. Second issue : it is maybe a more specific French issue here because the routes themselves can be copyrighted when they are considered as original work. A famous case confirmed this with the IGN (publishing the FFRP maps) sueing a guidebook editor [5] and confirmed by the highest court in France (1ere chambre de la cour de cassation de Paris, decision of 30 june 1998 [8]. I don't know if this is the same in other countries but a significant part of the OSM community in France would consider deleting the FFRP hiking routes completely (and not only the trademarks mentionned in Q1). On what basis do they claim ownership of the routes, exactly? As I understand it, many of these routes link up lots of little trails that had been around for decades. How did copyright get transferred from the people who created the trails to the FFRP? Or do they claim ownership only over new sections? Or only over a particular representation? Are they aware that all the data has been created independently, by surveying the trail - not by actually copying their data? I wonder where the exact line would be drawn - what if we didn't have routes, but just the trails marked. But then, how would you label such a trail - often they have no other name other than the GR number, plus the name of the next landmark. Presumably someone has sought French legal advice? What was it? Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
Second issue : it is maybe a more specific French issue here because the routes themselves can be copyrighted when they are considered as original work. A famous case confirmed this with the IGN (publishing the FFRP maps) sueing a guidebook editor [5] and confirmed by the highest court in France (1ere chambre de la cour de cassation de Paris, decision of 30 june 1998 [8]. I don't know if this is the same in other countries but a significant part of the OSM community in France would consider deleting the FFRP hiking routes completely (and not only the trademarks mentionned in Q1). On what basis do they claim ownership of the routes, exactly? As I understand it, many of these routes link up lots of little trails that had been around for decades. How did copyright get transferred from the people who created the trails to the FFRP? Or do they claim ownership only over new sections? Or only over a particular representation? Apologies - may have sent a blank response by accident. So does FFRP hiking routes include *any* waymarked/signposted trail in France? I hope not, as that would imply that OSM could not be used at all for planning/doing walks in France. I guess OSM would in that case need to come to some sort of agreement with FFRP/IGN. I'm not sure how French law on public access compares to the UK's, in my (limited) experience (Alpes-Maritimes/Mercantour area, north of Nice) certain trails are waymarked, others aren't but are subject to Defense d'entrer signs or similar... which is basically like the UK. More philosophically the idea of someone claiming copyright on walking routes seems completely at odds with the nature of countryside walking, which to my mind has similar free and open values to open source software and data (the landowners and their Keep out signs being similar to proprietary licencing) Nick ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
Eric Sibert wrote: They established a route that for instance allows to from city A to city B but not with the short way. Instead, it is going left and right to visit points of interest, alpine hutch and so on. They claim that such a work is an original work. Yes, I can see that. I've planned such routes (http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/65903, in particular); it's hard work and requires a lot of judgement. It would qualify for sweat-of-the-brow copyright protection in the UK were it not for the statutes expressly limiting this to original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic works; sound recordings, films or broadcasts; and the typographical arrangement of published editions. French law appears to have no such limitation. cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/OSM-legal-talk-Question-about-copyrighted-hiking-routes-in-France-tp5750170p5750333.html Sent from the Legal Talk mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
On Fri, Feb 22, 2013 at 9:20 PM, Nick Whitelegg nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk wrote: More philosophically the idea of someone claiming copyright on walking routes seems completely at odds with the nature of countryside walking, which to my mind has similar free and open values to open source software and data (the landowners and their Keep out signs being similar to proprietary licencing) And pragmatically, there are real problems when an organisation that establishes a route also seeks to derive income from selling information about it. It seems logical, until your realise that the organisation's two goals (promoting a route by disseminating information about it; and gaining income to achieve the primary goal) are completely contrary to each other. The Tasmanian Trail is completely obscure because the only information about it is in a mail-order paperback. To walk/ride the Great Dividing Trail requires paying for four really crappy maps. (Hopefully in two weeks' time it will be 90% OSM'ed.) Rail Trails Australia was heading in a similar direction, but I helped convince them that sharing information about the trails *is* their mission. Maybe the FFRP could be persuaded eventually? Convince them to give up claims of copyright on the route geography, and focus on prose descriptions, subjective details etc? Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
IANAL but just a thought... is it legal anyway to copyright route references? That is what the GRs appear to me to be to my eyes. Can the Department of Transport copyright the reference M25 in the uk and prohibit its use in all other publications? Nick -Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: - To: legal-talk@openstreetmap.org From: Pieren pier...@gmail.com Date: 21/02/2013 12:24PM Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France Hi all, I'm submitting here a question about the legality of keeping French long hiking routes called GR or GRP or PR in OSM. All these routes are very well known, have sign posts and references on the ground, e.g. the GR20 in Corsica (but many are still missing or very incomplete in OSM). See these examples in [1a] and [1b]. These routes have been created by the national hiking sport federation (FFRP, Fédération Française de Randonnée Pédestre). You can see them on the ground by the trail marks visible at regular intervals but also on most of the commercial maps in France. But we are facing two legal issues in France. The problems are not new but become more critical in my opinion (see below). First issue : it is the hiking route names themselves. For all of them created by the FFRP, the names are registered trademarks and cannot be used without permission (see question below). Second issue : the routes themselves are copyrighted. The list of trademarks is listed in the legal page of the FFRP web site([2]) : - (some are just used in books or commercial maps but) - GR® - GR Pays® - PR® - ... à pied - les environs de ... à pied - Sentiers des patrimoines are very common (especially the first 3 : GR, GR Pays (or GRP) and PR followed by a reference number. Question : the FFRP itself is an editor of hiking bookguides or has contracts with the IGN (the French state establishment for geographical information) for publishing commercial hiking maps, giving them royalties in return (an important income for the federation). So the FFRP is always actively contacting or bringing actions (sue) against private competitors or simple websites using their trademarks and routes on maps or book editors not paying any fees (see e.g. [3]). But some web sites seem to use them without fee ([4]). It seems that the FFRP is tolerating non-commercial use. Since 2009, 2 or 3 OSM contributors (including myself) tried to contact the FFRP to get the permission they request to use their copyrighted route names into OSM, wihout any reply until now. Earlier last year (Feb 2012), two members of the French local chapter met them physically and presented OSM. They showed some interest but repeated again and clearly that using the GR, PR, etc trademarks is not allowed without permission, a permission they didn't provide during that meeting (minutes available here [7]). They also didn't say anything about the future. it seems finally that they are looking for a replacement of their current map data provider (IGN) but they want to preserve their current commercial model. Note that the sign-posts (trail marks) are also protected (like a logo). After that meeting, we are several people thinking that we have the remove all references of the trademarks of the FFRP into OSM db, usually tagged in name or ref, either on ways or route relations or both. What's your opinion ? Second issue : it is maybe a more specific French issue here because the routes themselves can be copyrighted when they are considered as original work. A famous case confirmed this with the IGN (publishing the FFRP maps) sueing a guidebook editor [5] and confirmed by the highest court in France (1ere chambre de la cour de cassation de Paris, decision of 30 june 1998 [8]. I don't know if this is the same in other countries but a significant part of the OSM community in France would consider deleting the FFRP hiking routes completely (and not only the trademarks mentionned in Q1). Personnaly, I think that a route is not considered as an original work (or not enough original) in many jurisdictions. But still, keeping them in OSM is raising a legal insecurity in all DB extracts stored or distributed on French servers or applications. For these reasons, all FFRP hiking routes (represented in OSM by relations of type route, route=hiking) in France should be completely removed from the OSM database. What do you think ? Pieren [1a] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/1107414 [1b] http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/2650826 [2] http://www.ffrandonnee.fr/_67/mentions-legales.aspx (in French) [3] http://www.balades-pyrenees.com/numero_55.htm (in French) [4] http://www.gr-infos.com/ [5] http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichJuriJudi.do?oldAction=rechJuriJudiidTexte=JURITEXT06938477fastReqId=330410198fastPos=9 (in French) [6] http://hiking.lonvia.de/fr/?zoom=13lat=42.95532lon=-0.61968 [7] http://listes.openstreetmap.fr/wws/arc/ca/2012-02/msg0.html (in French, require ML registration first) [8]
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
From: Pieren [mailto:pier...@gmail.com] Subject: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France Hi all, I'm submitting here a question about the legality of keeping French long hiking routes called GR or GRP or PR in OSM. All these routes are very well known, have sign posts and references on the ground, e.g. the GR20 in Corsica (but many are still missing or very incomplete in OSM). See these examples in [1a] and [1b]. These routes have been created by the national hiking sport federation (FFRP, Fédération Française de Randonnée Pédestre). You can see them on the ground by the trail marks visible at regular intervals but also on most of the commercial maps in France. But we are facing two legal issues in France. The problems are not new but become more critical in my opinion (see below). First issue : it is the hiking route names themselves. For all of them created by the FFRP, the names are registered trademarks and cannot be used without permission (see question below). I cannot see that indicating that there are signs with a particular text on the ground is infringing their trademark. I'd expect most name=* values on POIs in OSM to be a trademark (although not necessarily registered). I've tagged Coca-Cola bottling centers, Starbucks, McDonalds and many more objects with trademarked names. If the mapping is accurate then the trademarked name is being used accurately and there's no issue. If I started tagging every coffee shop as a Starbucks regardless of ownership then I'd be diluting their trademark and it'd be an issue. Similarly, their trademark would stop someone from creating another hiking route with the same name, but would not stop someone from saying that they were heading to hike the GR20 if that's in fact what they were planning to do. Second issue : it is maybe a more specific French issue here because the routes themselves can be copyrighted when they are considered as original work. A famous case confirmed this with the IGN (publishing the FFRP maps) sueing a guidebook editor [5] and confirmed by the highest court in France (1ere chambre de la cour de cassation de Paris, decision of 30 june 1998 [8]. I don't know if this is the same in other countries but a significant part of the OSM community in France would consider deleting the FFRP hiking routes completely (and not only the trademarks mentionned in Q1). If the facts on the ground are covered by copyright I cannot see how a hiking network is different than a road network or a cycle network. Accepting this would require removing all roads in new suburbs and developments because they were copyrighted, not just these hiking routes. I also wonder if the guidebook copied FFRP maps or sent people out with GPSes. Another subtle point is we don't map what FFRP says is the route, we map what is marked on the ground. Personnaly, I think that a route is not considered as an original work (or not enough original) in many jurisdictions. But still, keeping them in OSM is raising a legal insecurity in all DB extracts stored or distributed on French servers or applications. For these reasons, all FFRP hiking routes (represented in OSM by relations of type route, route=hiking) in France should be completely removed from the OSM database. What do you think ? In some countries publishing maps requires a permit, but if someone deleted all the data in those countries I'm sure we'd regard it as vandalism. Other countries (e.g. China) forbid maps contrary to official ones, but when people start edit wars over disputed areas claimed by those countries what is regarded as important is the ground truth, not what the laws of that country allow to be published. I don't see that a French court's judgment should determine what goes in OSM, any more than a Chinese court. Even if the French court believes they have jurisdiction, they'd have to get any judgment domesticated by a British court. To accept the French judgment would gut OSM because it would apply to every hiking or road network in France, or for that matter, outside of France. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: I cannot see that indicating that there are signs with a particular text on the ground is infringing their trademark. I'd expect most name=* values on POIs in OSM to be a trademark (although not necessarily registered). I've tagged Coca-Cola bottling centers, Starbucks, McDonalds and many more objects with trademarked names. If the mapping is accurate then the trademarked name is being used accurately and there's no issue. If I started tagging every coffee shop as a Starbucks regardless of ownership then I'd be diluting their trademark and it'd be an issue. Similarly, their trademark would stop someone from creating another hiking route with the same name, but would not stop someone from saying that they were heading to hike the GR20 if that's in fact what they were planning to do. Again, you have to understand that this sport organization (FFRP) is publishing hiking bookguides and maps of their routes. It is their main income (plus some subsidies from the state). The FFRP made this trademark and copyright to protect them against commercial competitors on their market : their hiking routes. If the facts on the ground are covered by copyright I cannot see how a hiking network is different than a road network or a cycle network. Perhaps because a road network is in the public domaine. Here we speak about a copyrighted route. we map what is marked on the ground. This point has been long discussed on our local list. What you see on the ground is the trail markers. One problem is that the markers are also copyrighted (the colours and shapes) like a logo. Of course, if you put the McDonalds logo on OSM maps, McDo will be happy for the free ads and maps are not their business. But it might be different if you put an OS or USGS logo on your OSM maps. Second problem is that the trail markers are present along the route at short intervals. Even if we map only the marks, it will be easy to rebuild the whole route by extrapolation. I don't see that a French court's judgment should determine what goes in OSM, any more than a Chinese court. Even if the French court believes they have jurisdiction, they'd have to get any judgment domesticated by a British court. To accept the French judgment would gut OSM because it would apply to every hiking or road network in France, or for that matter, outside of France. Would you say the same if the court is in US or Canada ? Of course, we can build our mirror of the planet dump files and filter the compromised data. But is is the policy of OSM to ignore copyrights infringements outside UK ? Pieren ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
[reordered to place copyright matters together] From: Pieren [mailto:pier...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:26 AM To: Licensing and other legal discussions. Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France Again, you have to understand that this sport organization (FFRP) is publishing hiking bookguides and maps of their routes. It is their main income (plus some subsidies from the state). The FFRP made this trademark and copyright to protect them against commercial competitors on their market : their hiking routes. Oh, I understand why they don't want competition. I'm sure any map publisher would be happy with less competition. we map what is marked on the ground. This point has been long discussed on our local list. What you see on the ground is the trail markers. One problem is that the markers are also copyrighted (the colours and shapes) like a logo. Of course, if you put the McDonalds logo on OSM maps, McDo will be happy for the free ads and maps are not their business. But it might be different if you put an OS or USGS logo on your OSM maps. Second problem is that the trail markers are present along the route at short intervals. Even if we map only the marks, it will be easy to rebuild the whole route by extrapolation. The copyright of the markers isn't really relevant, we're discussing text like GR20 which would not be protected by copyright anywhere that I'm aware of. Trademark yes, but not copyright. The problem with any trademark arguments is if we're accurate, we're describing If the facts on the ground are covered by copyright I cannot see how a hiking network is different than a road network or a cycle network. Perhaps because a road network is in the public domaine. Here we speak about a copyrighted route. What makes it in the public domain as opposed to this route? Both networks were designed. I don't see that a French court's judgment should determine what goes in OSM, any more than a Chinese court. Even if the French court believes they have jurisdiction, they'd have to get any judgment domesticated by a British court. To accept the French judgment would gut OSM because it would apply to every hiking or road network in France, or for that matter, outside of France. Would you say the same if the court is in US or Canada ? Of course, we can build our mirror of the planet dump files and filter the compromised data. *Any* court judgment would need to be domesticated to be able to be enforced against the OSMF. We're talking about a case where if it were the same facts elsewhere it would be legal. Should the OSMF remove all landuse=military from Russia because mapping military facilities may not be legal there? If it were a local case that impacted me, I'd have to consider what I map and what I distribute in light of the case, but that's about all I can say about a vague hypothetical case. But is is the policy of OSM to ignore copyrights infringements outside UK ? My points were not about copyright infringements outside the UK. I was talking about data that would not infringe copyright under UK law. The Wikimedia Foundation uses US law for determining fair use and out of copyright status and hosts content where it would be infringing copyright under foreign law. Also, I think you mean the OSMF, not OSM, as it's the OSMF that would receive any takedown notices or lawsuits. If these did need to be removed as copyright violations, they would need to be redacted and I imagine the legals question would end up at the LWG, either directly or via the DWG. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
This point has been long discussed on our local list. What you see on the ground is the trail markers. One problem is that the markers are also copyrighted (the colours and shapes) like a logo. Of course, if you put the McDonalds logo on OSM maps, McDo will be happy for the free ads and maps are not their business. MacDo may not be happy because you put on the same map all fast-food networks. Or because on your smart-phone app Find your MacDo, you allowed user to share (bad) comments. Using brand/logo is alway legally dangerous. If we consider that everything that the use may be dangerous should be removed from OSM, then all brands everywhere in the world must be removed. Indeed, I consider that this the way we are using it that is dangerous i.e. this is the responsibility of the guy doing the extract from OSM and organizing the data that is involved. But it might be different if you put an OS or USGS logo on your OSM maps. I don't see any problem if you put USGS logo on USGS offices/shops. Of course, you will get in trouble if you put a big USGS logo on the cover of your map. Again, this is the way you are using it that is critical. Éric ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question about copyrighted hiking routes in France
On Thu, Feb 21, 2013 at 11:22 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: First issue : it is the hiking route names themselves. For all of them created by the FFRP, the names are registered trademarks and cannot be used without permission (see question below). Second issue : the routes themselves are copyrighted. Hi Pieren, I am also not a lawyer, but here's my two cents. First, it would be really said if we lost the GR routes. I recently hiked about half of the GR20, using the OSM route of course. So I don't think we should give up easily - they're so valuable. On the trademark front, it should be easy to establish if they have a genuine complaint. If they do, I think we can change the names without losing too much - even if had to call them French hiking route 20 or something. Second issue : it is maybe a more specific French issue here because the routes themselves can be copyrighted when they are considered as original work. A famous case confirmed this with the IGN (publishing the FFRP maps) sueing a guidebook editor [5] and confirmed by the highest court in France (1ere chambre de la cour de cassation de Paris, decision of 30 june 1998 [8]. I don't know if this is the same in other countries but a significant part of the OSM community in France would consider deleting the FFRP hiking routes completely (and not only the trademarks mentionned in Q1). On what basis do they claim ownership of the routes, exactly? As I understand it, many of these routes link up lots of little trails that had been around for decades. How did copyright get transferred from the people who created the trails to the FFRP? Or do they claim ownership only over new sections? Or only over a particular representation? Are they aware that all the data has been created independently, by surveying the trail - not by actually copying their data? I wonder where the exact line would be drawn - what if we didn't have routes, but just the trails marked. But then, how would you label such a trail - often they have no other name other than the GR number, plus the name of the next landmark. Presumably someone has sought French legal advice? What was it? Steve ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
