Kudos

2011-08-18 Thread Mike McCarty
I want to express my appreciation for the people of the LFS
support echo, and especially for the support team. The quality
of folk, and the quality of support, are, in my experience,
unsurpassed.

I have, since about 2005 or so, used and admin'd a few free
distro's, the names of which would likely be recognized by
everyone here. The constant bickering, posturing, pouting,
flaming, and general disagreeableness manifest on the support
lists for them eventually drove me away for my own sanity's
sake, at the expense of not getting support and having to
make my own way in some cases.

Also, I found the That's the way we do things here; like it
or lump it! attitude from the support teams to be annoying,
to say the least. There was only cursory acceptance of the right
of the user to determine for himself what got installed and
configured on his machine.

I was told by one member of a certain support group that I
didn't _deserve_ to use their distro, because I didn't measure
up to their standards for a user, which seemingly included
having a certain world view, and didn't want to get involved
in changing society by means of promulgating an OS. I consider
an OS a way to manage my hardware, and load and execute applications,
not a means of social change, however much it may be needed.

I don't see that at LFS.

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Re: Problems with Grub

2011-08-17 Thread Mike McCarty
Giorgio Cittadini wrote:
 RESOLVED!!!

Congratulations!

And thanks for posting the fix.

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Re: lfs system

2011-08-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Frederick Muriithi wrote:
 I just finished building my lfs 6.8 system, and registered as a new
 lfs user. Just follow the rules for posting and you'll be surprised

Congratulations!

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Re: Problems with Grub

2011-08-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Andrew Benton wrote:

Giorgio gioci...@gmail.com wrote:

[...]

 What to do? Could you suggest where I mistook? What to do now: remove
 (but how?) Grub and reinstall it?

GRUB is not something to remove. If one no longer wants GRUB, then
one simply overwrites it with something else.

 You don't need to reinstall grub. If it's working Ok and you can boot
 into LFS then just edit grub.cfg to make an entry for windows,
 something like this:
 
 menuentry Windows {
set root=(hd0,1)
chainloader +1
 }

Back when I was making a dual boot system, this didn't work
for me. I had a machine which wanted the Windows Boot Manager
to be in control of boot. Fortunately, the Windows Boot Manager
is actually a reasonable piece of software, and I was able to
configure it to load GRUB for me.

What you suggest may work in most circumstances, and it's the
solution I usually see, but it is not a universal solution.

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Re: Problems with Grub

2011-08-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Andrew Benton wrote:
 On Tue, 16 Aug 2011 12:46:46 -0500
 Mike McCarty mike.mcca...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Andrew Benton wrote:
 You don't need to reinstall grub. If it's working Ok and you can boot
 into LFS then just edit grub.cfg to make an entry for windows,
 something like this:

 menuentry Windows {
set root=(hd0,1)
chainloader +1
 }
 Back when I was making a dual boot system, this didn't work
 for me. I had a machine which wanted the Windows Boot Manager
 to be in control of boot. Fortunately, the Windows Boot Manager
 is actually a reasonable piece of software, and I was able to
 configure it to load GRUB for me.

 What you suggest may work in most circumstances, and it's the
 solution I usually see, but it is not a universal solution.
 
 I didn't suggest it was a universal solution. Windows XP likes to be on

No, no, I didn't mean to imply that you did. It was intended just
to be a heads up that some computers don't like GRUB. Dell, Compaq,
and some HP are like that, for example. The BIOS is Windows-Centric.

 the first partition of the first disk. On this computer I've set the

This is also true, and something to watch for. Windows likes to be
in charge.

[...]

 However the original poster said he was using windows 7 which can be
 installed on any partition which is why I didn't put this in my
 original reply.

Not what I was referring to. I was referring to machines which have
a BIOS which doesn't like non-Windows boot loaders, and go into
recovery mode when they don't detect the Windows Boot Manager.

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Re: new error

2011-08-09 Thread Mike McCarty
Bill Cunningham wrote:
 I don't know if this would qualify as an error or not. whatever this is 
 I think it broke the compile. Does anyone know what this says?

I know what the immediate meaning is, but not the cause.

 In file included /mnt/lfs/gcc-4.5.2/gcc/gcc.c:8303: warning: cast discards 
 qualifiers from pointer target type

This is usually as a result of something like this:

voidsome_function(const void *some_pointer) {
char *my_copy_of_some_pointer;

my_copy_of_some_pointer = (char *)some_pointer;

[...]
}

The cast discards the const qualifier to the target type.
Why this may be occurring, I don't know.

 /mnt/lfs/gcc-4.5.2/libgcc/../gcc/config/soft-fp/divtf3.c: In function 
 '__divtf3':
 /mnt/lfs/gcc-4.5.2/libgcc/../gcc/config/soft-fp/divtf3.c:38:1: warning: 
 'R_e' may be used uninitialized in this function

This means that a variable is used in a function, seemingly without
being assigne a value first.

[...]

 /mnt/lfs/gcc-4.5.2/libgcc/../gcc/config/soft-fp/fixtfsi.c: In function 
 '__fixtfsi':
 /mnt/lfs/gcc-4.5.2/libgcc/../gcc/config/soft-fp/fixtfsi.c:42:3: warning: 
 left shift count = width of type

This is a complaint for something like

unsigned short int i, j;

j = i  24;

where an unsigned short int is 16 bits.

 
 What is this fixunstfsi.c file?
 
 Bill
 

Dunno

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Re: glibc

2011-07-29 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Thu, 2011-07-28 at 13:02 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:

[...]

 What is the issue? Does the GCC have special hooks into the
 kernel or sth like that?
 
 GCC doesn't - but glibc does. Not my area of expertise, but I assume a
 2.4 kernel simply doesn't provide the necessary syscall interfaces to
 build a modern glibc.

However, the one being _built_ is the one needing the hooks, not
the one running. As long as one has full source for everything
being built, and isn't relying upon the include files for the
one being run, it shouldn't matter.

So, I still don't get it.

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Re: glibc

2011-07-28 Thread Mike McCarty
William Immendorf wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 8:29 AM, Bill Cunningham bill...@suddenlink.net 
 wrote:
 Â  Â Ok. It's there. I have solved this problem. And another has arisen. I am
 running an old RH 9 32 bit OS on a AMD athelon 64 bit address bus processor.
 (FYI: It's spelled Athlon, not Athelon.)

Your CDO is showing :-)

CDO is like OCD, but the letters are in the right order.

 The OS that you are using is not adquadate for building LFS 6.8. The
 book recommends a host system that is like or newer than LFS 6.3,
 which is dated around late 2007. Redhat 9 was released around 2003 or
 so, and that tells me right there that your host system is way too old
 to build on.

Since the C programming language is built upon a virtual machine
concept, and the sources for the tools are all written in C, AFAIK,
then what is the problem. Any machine which supports the necessary
constructs should be able to emit the code necessary. One should be
able to build for the PC using a MAC, ISTM.

What is the issue? Does the GCC have special hooks into the
kernel or sth like that?

Mac
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Re: Browsing internet from LFS live cd

2011-07-18 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:

[...]

 It may not detect the network card.  The live CD is no longer supported.
 
 You can test a little more with `ifconfig -a`.  If eth0 does not show up 
 then, the card is probably more recent than the iso.
 
 Try using a more recent livecd from http://www.livecdlist.com/

Good advice as far as it goes, but many of those LiveCDs on the list
don't have a development environment on them. So, I'll add:

Eschew the small ones. I like Knoppix. The 6.4.4 version is nice,
It likes to boot Ariadne, which you probably won't want, unless you
are seeing impaired. So when you boot, specify knoppix. You get
a pretty good choice of window managers. If you use/like LXDE, then
one little gotcha is that by default it only has one workspace,
and no manager installed on the tool bar. Right click on the
tool bar near the right, and you'll get the option to add the
workspace manager:

Add/Remove Panel Items - +Add - Desktop Pager

Click +Add at the bottom to confirm, and you'll get four workspaces,
which I find nice. One for work, one for a copy of the book, one
for a browser.

If you can boot from a DVD, it's got more stuff on it, though it takes
a while to download. The CD is adequate, I believe. I just booted
up the CD version in a virtual machine, to check whether GCC is
installed, and it's there.

Anything else you need can be apt-get install ed, though it won't
persist between boots, of course. I used Knoppix to recover a crashed
disc recently, and while I can't say I enjoyed the experience, I was
very adequate.

Mike
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Re: Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(2, 0)

2011-07-18 Thread Mike McCarty
Tony Hartzell wrote:
 VFS: Cannot open root device hda2 or unknown-block(2,0)
 Please append a correct root= boot option; here are the available
 partitions:
 Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: unable to mount root fs on
 unknown-block(2,0)

Usually a result of a missing driver in the file system hierarchy.
Make sure you have the necessary drivers built into the kernel
and not as modules. You'll need

your file system driver (ext, reiser, whatever)
your bus interface driver (PCI bridge, usually)
standard ATA interface driver
your hard disc controller driver (chip specific)

A way to get some of that information about the hardware is to
boot to your development system and use lspci to show what you've
got. You can also query the actually used modules with lsmod and
find out what actually got used by the kernel. Real men open
up the case, locate the driver chips on the MB, and figure it
out that way. :-)

 I think my problem is that /dev isn't being populated. During the build,

You are not getting that far in the boot.

This is a common problem with first builds, don't be disheartened.

Mike
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Re: What happened if I stop the make check?

2011-07-12 Thread Mike McCarty
Webmaster wrote:
 Sometimes I don't have much time to wait it so I pressed Ctrl+C. Are
 there any side effects if I stop it?

It depends upon when it is done. If you simply

$ make

and then

$ make check

then likely there is no problem. If, however, the

$ make check

is the first command, then you may kill the initial build
in the middle.

Mike
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Re: Configure Error Received in Chpt. 6.9. Glibc-2.13

2011-07-11 Thread Mike McCarty
me,apporc wrote:
 Alright.
 In fact  i saw his name was in chinese so i used chinese . I thought maybe
 we can communicate with each other better with chinese.
 Don't worry, it won't happen again.
 By the way ,sorry for my poor english.

If I may make a comment and suggestion:

While the LIST discourages the use of languages other than English,
there is no reason why one cannot send an e-mail under separate cover
in any language, and make a public post on the list indicating that
one has done so, and give the content in English on the list, and then
report back on the results, if the responder permits.

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Re: following book

2011-07-05 Thread Mike McCarty
Bill Cunningham wrote:
Well I've pretty much follwed the book word for word up to the

What does pretty much mean?

 compilation of binutils and it breaks the enviornment can't find the ld.
 
 Bill


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Re: What should I choose while installing Linux Kernel?

2011-06-27 Thread Mike McCarty
Webmaster wrote:
 I've found that there are so many options... I don't know which one I
 should choose and which one shouldn't...
  What is the different between * built-in and M moudle?

You got some replies which may have helped. I'll give an explanation
of the difference in physical terms, and give you my opinion about
how to proceed.

If a device driver is built in then the code for it gets linked
as a physical part of the kernel, and becomes part of the image
on the boot device which gets loaded into memory at initial boot.

If a device driver is built as a module, then it is not physically
part of the kernel image, but information is included both in the
kernel and in the separate module containing the device driver, which
allows the device driver to be loaded and the final link done during
the boot process.

In order for this to take place, the device which contains the
actual physical image of the module must be mountable during
boot. This means that the device drivers necessary to access
the physical device where the module image is stored must be
present in the kernel at that time. Those may be modules, but
somewhere there must be an end to the regress of dependencies.

This means that at least some of the device drivers must be
built in.

One way to do this, usually followed by the standard distributions,
is to build in the device drivers which enable the kernel to mount
a RAM disc, and to specify the RAM disc as something to be loaded
at initial boot. Then, all the other device drivers necessary for
initial boot are built, but are built as modules, and placed in
the RAM disc image.

During boot, the initial RAM disc is loaded, and mounted by the
kernel. Then the startup code in the RAM disc probes the hardware,
and loads the device drivers (modules) necessary to access the
hardware present on the machine. After that, the physical disc
drives can be accessed, and mounted. Then, the device drivers
not necessary for boot get loaded as modules. These would
include such things as sound device drivers, display drivers,
etc. All the stuff not necessary to access the boot devices
on the system.

In order to do that, one must understand how the RAM disc
gets built, and what all must be present in it. This is
an unnecessary complication, when one is not building a
general purpose kernel which must boot with a wide variety
of physical configurations of hardware. You are not building
a kernel which can boot anywhere, you are building a kernel
for your machine.

So, it makes sense, with LFS, to build all device drivers
into the kernel, and make a custom kernel for the hardware
on which it is to be installed. It's not the only way, and
certainly if one is trying to build for a FLASH drive which
can be carried to a variety of machines it is necessary to
include many different drivers, but for a first build, it's
generally best to build only the drivers necessary for the
hardware present on the target machine, and to make them
all built in.

Mac
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Re: gcc (first pass) compilation error

2011-06-24 Thread Mike McCarty
William Immendorf wrote:
 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 11:08 AM, Frederick Muriithi
 fredmang...@gmail.com wrote:


[...]

 Have fun, don't panic, and don't forget to bring your towel!!! (on
 second thought, leave the towel behind)

Is that in large friendly letters? Then he'd better bring
his towel.

Mac
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Re: What is 21?

2011-06-21 Thread Mike McCarty
Webmaster wrote:
 For example:
 ls -l /usr/bin | more  redirect_test.log 21 (BLFS 6.3 Page 37) What does 
 21 mean?

You got two nice explanations; I thought perhaps a little more
detail would help. However, this is a basic UNIX shell type
question, and something someone embarking upon building
LFS is normally expected already to understand.

Suppose you have a program xyz. To redirect the standard output
you would use

$ xyz  redirected-ouput-file

Now programs have three standard files associated with fd 0,
fd 1, and fd 2 (file descriptor). 0 is stdin (standard input)
1 is stdout (standard output normal output) and 2 is
stderr (standard error error output). To redirect stdin one uses
the  symbol

$ xyz  redirected-input-file

causes redirected-input-file to be read rather than your keyboard.

One can specify which fd is being redirected by preceding the
symbol  with the fd, like this:

$ xyz 1 redirected-stdout-file 2 redirected-stderr-file

If one wants BOTH outputs to go to the stdout file, then one
uses the 1 as the redirected output, like this

$ xyz 21

this makes fd 2 point to the same file as fd 1. So,

$ xyz 1 redirected-combined-output 21

puts both fd 1 (stdout) and fd2 (stderr) in one combined output
file.

It is important that the redirections take place in the order
shown.

$ xyz 21 1 redirected-combined-output

does something different. It makes fd 2 (stderr) go to where
fd 1 goes (screen), and then makes fd 1 go somewhere else.

Mac
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Re: 6.9. Glibc-2.12.1

2011-06-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 11:12 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
 Webmaster wrote:
 I never check, because if the check passed it's useless but if the
 check failed you can do nothing.
 Then you do not understand the purpose of testing. I've heard
 many a manager say more or less the same thing.
 
 Harsh. Automated tests are primarily for developers to spot regressions

Possibly, but not intentionally so.

 in their own code - if they happen to be useful to spot problems in an
 LFS build, that's just a bonus for us.

I was addressing the purpose of testing. The purpose of testing is
NOT to detect errors. The purpose of testing is to verify proper
operation. Regression errors is one place where it's useful, again,
to verify proper operation, as you say.

Using testing to detect errors is a very inefficient and not very
useful technique. A more efficient and useful technique is to
use code inspections.

 Personally, I don't bother - they're critical when I'm writing code, but
 I rarely take the time to run them when simply installing someone else's
 work.

Interesting. I have more faith in my own code than I do in others'.
You apparently trust others' works more than you do your own.

Mac
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Re: Building a 32-bit LFS on a 64-bit host

2011-06-20 Thread Mike McCarty
lanas wrote:
 OK.  I already have a nicely-equipped Fedora 32-bit virtual machine in

That was going to be my suggestion. Not Fedora, abut a 32 bit virtual.

 which I alreay built several LFS some time ago (2 years), so I'll keep
 at it then.  I was kind of hoping for a 'instant recipe' that did not
 involve cross-compiling although by now it seems that indeed, compiling
 32-bit binaries using a 64-bit host is a cross compile in the same
 rights as compiling ppc binaries using a x86_64 system.  Both are cross
 compiles, no 'instant recipe' to be found for the former.

A 64 bit machine which is 32 bit capable, is a completely
different machine in 32 bit mode than it is in 64 bit mode.

I recall back in the bad old days when I had a little
S-100 bus machine with a processors which had two modes
of operation for the same chip. It could run as an 8085
look alike, or as an 8088 look alike. I ran it as an
8085 with CP/M.

For purposes of compiling, etc. the two modes were effectively
entirely different computers. The fact that they share silicon
is irrelevant. 64 bit mode and 32 bit mode are separate
machines from the standpoint of software builds.

Mac
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Re: 6.9. Glibc-2.12.1

2011-06-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Fri, 2011-06-17 at 11:12 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
 Webmaster wrote:
 I never check, because if the check passed it's useless but if the
 check failed you can do nothing.
 Then you do not understand the purpose of testing. I've heard
 many a manager say more or less the same thing.
 
 Harsh. Automated tests are primarily for developers to spot regressions

Oh, and if I didn't make it clear, I apologize for any offence I
may have given. Sorry if that was harsh. I didn't intend it so.

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Re: Have you tried building LFS with LFS-LiveCD?

2011-06-17 Thread Mike McCarty
Webmaster wrote:
 I think it's good to use LiveCD to build LFS. You don't need to
 install Host System (Ubuntu, etc.), just booting from the disk
 instead. And LiveCD also provides source codes, so you needn't
 download it.

To answer your question: I have successfully built an LFS
system from scratch (empty disc) using only the LFS LiveCD
as the host.

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Re: 6.9. Glibc-2.12.1

2011-06-17 Thread Mike McCarty
Webmaster wrote:
 I never check, because if the check passed it's useless but if the
 check failed you can do nothing.

Then you do not understand the purpose of testing. I've heard
many a manager say more or less the same thing.

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Re: Failure booting into LFS

2011-06-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Brian Dickens wrote:
 I recently finished working through the most recent LFS book, but
 when I try booting into the new OS, I see the following error: VFS:
 cannot open root device sda2 orq unknown-block(0,0)

It looks like you have a problem either in configuration of your boot or
in configuration of your kernel build. Be sure you have a physical
device at sda and that the second partition on it is the one you want
to boot from. Also be sure that you have the drivers for the disc
interface chips, and the type of disc you have (ATA, SATA, SCSI, etc.).

 I built everything using ubuntu as the host which might be the issue?

Unlikely.

 I built the ubuntu box and then tried installing everything on a new
 partition, so ubuntu called the partitions sdf. I recently
 repartitioned the drive and copied everything back down. Could ubuntu
 have messed thing up?

Please describe in detail the steps you followed.

 Not sure where to go from here. I could start over, but would prefer
 not to have to. Just not sure where the issue is.

Probably either your boot loader has been given bad instructions,
or your kernel needs a different build done.

 Oh. Pc is an up z600. It has an intel raid controller in it. When i
 compiled the kernel, I added in every raid and Sata/pata driver I
 could. Is it possible that I missed something?

Give a list.

 
 Thanks,
 Brian


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Re: 6.9. Glibc-2.12.1

2011-06-16 Thread Mike McCarty
robert wrote:
 cannot get beyond this:
 
 make[1]: Target `check' not remade because of errors.
 make[1]: Leaving directory `/sources/glibc-2.12.1'
 make: *** [check] Error 2
 make[2]: [/sources/glibc-build/posix/annexc.out] Error 1 (ignored)
 make[2]: *** [/sources/glibc-build/rt/tst-mqueue5.out] Error 1
 make[2]: *** [/sources/glibc-build/rt/tst-cpuclock2.out] Error 1
 make[1]: *** [rt/tests] Error 2
 make: *** [check] Error 2
 
 
 any suggestions?

Post more info. Did ./configure complain about anything?

Wait a minute. What chapter of the book are you working in?
If you are in Chapter 5, then you probably shouldn't be

make check

if that's what you did.

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Re: Kernel Panic Help

2011-06-01 Thread Mike McCarty
bsquared wrote:
 Hello,
 
 Can anyone recommend some resources for troubleshooting a kernel panic.
 
 I have been built LFS 6.8 on a USB stick, and moved it to a disk
 partition using 'dd'.  I modified the grub.cfg file and rebooted.
 Then got a kernel panic.

Usually, kernel panics have some explanatory text surrounding them.

One common cause of panics is not having a necessary driver built
into the kernel. When the kernel tries to look for files, and doesn't
have drivers enabling it to mount '/', it can't proceed.

It could be that you have the drivers necessary to read the USB
stick, but not the disc drive you have on your machine which
the kernel wants to be '/'.

Anyway, posting some information here about the panic is probably
a very good first step, because there are people here with
experience dealing with kernel boot panics and common causes.

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Re: The trouble with not following instructions (a problem with X.org)

2011-05-23 Thread Mike McCarty
William Immendorf wrote:

William, you have the patience of a saint.

Janu,

FBBG

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Re: how to install and remove the windows boot loader

2011-05-13 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Send this type of message to lfs-support
 
  Original Message 
 Subject: Re: lfs-support Digest, Vol 2302, Issue 2 (janu mam)
 Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 09:57:37 +0530
 From: janu mam janakiramulu.mt...@gmail.com
 To: Bruce Dubbs bruce.du...@gmail.com
 References: BANLkTi=v-FSv7De=mf67x+qhs_vl9v-...@mail.gmail.com 
 4dc01a28.1040...@gmail.com
 
   hi
 thanks for reply
 
 1)so how to install and remove the windows boot loader

It is not necessary to do that. When you set your system up
to boot, you simply overwrite it.

 2)now in my case how to wipe the windows partition,(means when i reboot  lfs
 shaout boot and return root}
 to do this
 can you tell me what i have to do

I'm afraid I don't understand the question. Are you trying to re use
the partition which currently has some version of Windows installed
in it? If so, then just use fdisk to change the partition type, and
use mkfs to format the partition the way you like.

 --
 3)here is different issue(general information)- in book they mentioned about
 hda but in my case sda's are there
 in book they mentioned to use hda
 if i start fresh lfs building how to put hda's instead of sda's(i used
 gparted(ubuntu) partition tool to make the partions my hard disk)
 what i have to do this

Do you understand what /dev/hda means? Do you understand what
/dev/sda means?

Mike
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Re: FYI: using jhbuild to install X

2011-05-13 Thread Mike McCarty
bsquared wrote:
 In case anyone has interest.  I was able to use jhbuild to install xorg 
 7.6 on LFS 6.8 w/ package users fairly easily.

Perhaps a hint is in order?

Mike
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Re: Slightly OT: Building with a VM

2011-05-02 Thread Mike McCarty
me,apporc wrote:
 Hi
 Is there a book or someting like which i can refer to for these knowledge
 about disks , images files and partitions .

I use the man pages a lot.

 I don't know how to mount a partition in a image file with offset .I want to
 know detailed knowledge about this . I hope you can give me an advice.

Mike
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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Yes, it,s a little touchy.  You can get that when it's creating /tools, etc.
 too.
 Just delete the old stuff and start over.  The program is not very tolerant
 of errors and variations, but once you get it work the way you want, it's
 handy.

I looked a little farther, and the problem occurs in LFS/master.sh
inside of build_Makefile(), which tries to cd to the directory
JHALFSDIR/${PROGNAME}-commands. This gets called from jhalfs
when Rebuild the Makefile is selected. If that is not selected,
the tool complains that /media/lfs was not previously populated
by a run of jhalfs.

So, the FIRST time jhalfs is run, it isn't doing something it needs
to do in the way of populating the directory. As I stated, it's
broken, and people who regularly run it won't notice, b/c the
directory structure is present and populated.

As a kludgy work around I have, in times past, extracted the
tarball twice.

Instead, I'd like to suggest that whoever maintains jhalfs figure
out what's wrong and fix it.

Mike
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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Yes, it,s a little touchy.  You can get that when it's creating /tools, etc.
 too.

Ok, I've read the source, Luke, and I've got it going.
For the FIRST run one must have

Rebuild Files set to FALSE (not checked)
Rebuild Makefile set to FALSE (not checked)

It now appears to be extracting commands and running ok.

Mike
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Re: V 6.8 wget-list

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
bsquared wrote:
 On Wed, Apr 20, 2011 at 9:16 PM, Mike McCarty
 mike.mcca...@sbcglobal.net wrote:
 Is the version 6.8 wget-list not yet available?
 
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/6.8/wget-list

Thanks! Got it.

It would make sense to put a copy or link in the
download area as well.

Mike
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Re: V 6.8 MD5SUM file

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 
 Update: The 6.8 sources is now on the master and will be on the mirrors 
 when they sync in the next day or so.  I put a MD5SUM file in the tarball.

Thanks!

Mike
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Slightly OT: Building with a VM

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
I've started in building 6.8 using a VM (qemu).

I built the pseudo disc file using the raw disc image creator supplied
with the VM. I set up an ISO image of the LFS LiveCD as the boot
disc, attached the raw disc image to /dev/hda, and booted up. I then
ran cfdisk to create volumes, and formatted them as ext3.

Now, I'd like to transfer some files I created in the true hose system
into the disc image. I used fdisk to list the volumes (partitions)
in the disc image, and tried to use the offsets it gave me in order
to do loop mounts. Some of the mounts work, and some do not, and I'm
a little confused.

Here's what fdisk thinks about the disc image I created:

$ ls -l disc.img
-rw-r--r--  1 jmccarty jmccarty 42949672960 Apr 21 18:52 disc.img

$ /sbin/fdisk -ul disc.img
You must set cylinders.
You can do this from the extra functions menu.

Disk disc.img: 0 MB, 0 bytes
255 heads, 63 sectors/track, 0 cylinders, total 0 sectors
Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes

Device Boot  Start End  Blocks   Id  System
disc.img1   *  63  192779   96358+  83  Linux
disc.img2  19278019727819 9767520   83  Linux
Partition 2 has different physical/logical endings:
  phys=(1023, 254, 63) logical=(1227, 254, 63)
disc.img31972782039262859 9767520   83  Linux
Partition 3 has different physical/logical beginnings (non-Linux?):
  phys=(1023, 254, 63) logical=(1228, 0, 1)
Partition 3 has different physical/logical endings:
  phys=(1023, 254, 63) logical=(2443, 254, 63)
disc.img4392628608387536422306252+   5  Extended
Partition 4 has different physical/logical beginnings (non-Linux?):
  phys=(1023, 254, 63) logical=(2444, 0, 1)
Partition 4 has different physical/logical endings:
  phys=(1023, 254, 63) logical=(5220, 254, 63)
disc.img5392629238387536422306221   83  Linux
You must set cylinders.
You can do this from the extra functions menu.

As you can see, fdisk is not exactly happy with the volumes.
I can mount 1, and 2, but I cannot mount 3 or 5 using the
listed offsets. The listed offsets correspond to the
logical (C,H,S) listed, and I tried the offsets corresponding
to the physical (C,H,S), but with no luck.

Does anyone have a suggestion?

This is not much of an issue, since I'm really only using partition
2. I intended 1 as /boot, 2 as /, 3 as / (alternate for trying new
versions), and 5 as /home. At present, only 2 is mounted
(as /media/lfs) for purposes of build, and I've successfully transferred
some files into there, so not a problem.

However, I'd like to understand just what is going on.

Mike
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Re: Slightly OT: Building with a VM

2011-04-21 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:
 Bother! Clicked the wrong button!

[nice stuff snipped]

I very much appreciate the suggestions for PT editors. Thanks!

However, I'd like to get an answer to the question about the
offsets within the file to get to the starts of the file systems.

Am I missing something, like I need to allow for the BPB at the
beginning of some of the partitions? Something like that? If so,
then why does volume 2 mount w/o problem, based upon the computed
offsets. What does fdisk mean when it says that the physical and
logical start/end of a volume are not the same? I understand the
usual layout of an MBR and the PT, and I'm not sure what
inconsistency there can be, unless the BPB and the PT disagree
in some way.

Mike
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Re: Compiling grub-1.98 fails

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Karthik Bhuvanagiri wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I'm following LFS-Book-6.7. I followed everything in the book successfully
 until section 6.44.1-Installation of Grub. Compiling grub-1.98 fails after
 issuing make command.
 Please suggest me in resolving the issue.
 
 *Output of ./configure --prefix=/usr --sysconfdir=/etc
 --disable-grub-emu-usb --disable-grub-fstest --disable-efiemu:*
[...]
 grub_mkelfimage-gnulib_progname.o:(.bss+0x0): multiple definition of
 `program_name'
 grub_mkelfimage-gnulib_progname.o:(.bss+0x0): first defined here
 grub_mkelfimage-gnulib_progname.o: In function `set_program_name':
 progname.c:(.text+0x0): multiple definition of `set_program_name'

[...]

Did this ever get resolved? I see that the .o files got included
in the link more than once, but I didn't see a resolution.

Mike
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Re: Compiling grub-1.98 fails

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Mike McCarty wrote:
 Did this ever get resolved? I see that the .o files got included
 in the link more than once, but I didn't see a resolution.
 
 In a fresh svn build yesterday, I get no errors at all.  You've cut down 
 the output to where I can't see what the Makefile was trying to do.  I have:

I was making reference to an earlier message by Karthik Bhuvanagiri.
I'm not having the problem, and was just putting enough in to be a
memory jogger, not something to diagnose.

The problem happened during the link, when the same .o files got
listed more than once. That, of course, resulted in multiple
definitions of all symbols they export.

Mike
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Re: gcc test failures

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Alex Bosworth wrote:
 I don't know a lot about linux scheduler, but I believe that it would make a 
 difference as, setting a lower priority means less time slice allocated to 
 the 
 process thus, in turn reduces the frequency the process is scheduled. On the 

No, it means that if there are other (higher priority) processes waiting
for the CPU, it'll give it up. If there aren't other such processes,
then it makes no difference.

[...]

[...]

 First, I am gonna try recompile manually to see if jhalfs setting some 
 unfavorable flags and thus making the test fail (I doubt that!). If that 
 fails, 
 I'm gonna download and run prime95 to see how the hardware fares.

You might also consider memtest, though prime95 is a good choice
to check for heat problems.

Mike
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Re: compiling packages in sec 5

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Lorenzo Trojan wrote:
 Hi all, I hope this isn't a silly question...
 
 it's not quite clear to me one thing: why the the gcc cross compiler
 created in sec 5.5 isn't used for the compilation of the packages in
 section 5 (something like ./configure CC=$LFS_TGT-gcc)? Since the
 path is set to /tools/bin:/bin:/usr/bin the gcc and cc executables
 used during compilation is the one created during the second pass,
 wouldn't this break if the build and the host system aren't the same?

The entire set of tools built in Chapter 5 need to be built
by one and the same set of dev tools, in order to ensure that
they all work together and agree on what formats are, etc.

Just like horses, one shouldn't change compilers in mid stream.

Mike
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JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
I'm using a VM (qemu) to build LFS v 6.8. I'm using the LFS LiveCD
as my build system. I've partitioned and formatted my disc,
and successfully booted the LiveCD. I've downloaded jhalfs-2.3.2
(I understand the one on the LiveCD jhalfs-2.3.1 is broken) and
started setting up my directory structure. Here it is:

/media/lfsbuild directory
/media/BOOK   book, v 6.8 XML extracted
/media/jhalfs jhalfs-2.3.2 extracted
/media/archiveplace to put the archived downloads
/media/sourcesplace to put the sources for build

All the directories are writable by the jhalfs user.

I've gone into jhalfs and and done a make, and tried to
set up the configuration. However, when I do a make, I go
through the menu, and upon exit, jhalfs mostly likes it,
but complains that the jhalfs directory and the build directory
conflict. I've given /media/lfs as the build directory, and
used the directory structure mentioned in README. However,
jhalfs doesn't like it. If I rename jhalfs to jhalfs-2.3.2
and create another directory jhalfs, then the tool complains
that other necessary directores underneath jhalfs don't
exist. They appear to be directories in the jhalfs-2.3.2
directory, and appear to contain support scripts.

What I've done before is extract the tarball twice, once
into jhalfs-2.3.2 and once into jhalfs. This doesn't seem
right.

What clue am I missing?

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V 6.8 wget-list

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Is the version 6.8 wget-list not yet available?

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Mike McCarty wrote:
 I'm using a VM (qemu) to build LFS v 6.8. I'm using the LFS LiveCD
 as my build system. I've partitioned and formatted my disc,
 and successfully booted the LiveCD. I've downloaded jhalfs-2.3.2
 (I understand the one on the LiveCD jhalfs-2.3.1 is broken) and
 started setting up my directory structure. Here it is:

 /media/lfsbuild directory
 /media/BOOK   book, v 6.8 XML extracted
 /media/jhalfs jhalfs-2.3.2 extracted
 /media/archiveplace to put the archived downloads
 /media/sourcesplace to put the sources for build

 All the directories are writable by the jhalfs user.

 I've gone into jhalfs and and done a make, and tried to
 set up the configuration. However, when I do a make, I go
 through the menu, and upon exit, jhalfs mostly likes it,
 but complains that the jhalfs directory and the build directory
 conflict. I've given /media/lfs as the build directory, and
 used the directory structure mentioned in README. However,
 jhalfs doesn't like it. If I rename jhalfs to jhalfs-2.3.2
 and create another directory jhalfs, then the tool complains
 that other necessary directores underneath jhalfs don't
 exist. They appear to be directories in the jhalfs-2.3.2
 directory, and appear to contain support scripts.

 What I've done before is extract the tarball twice, once
 into jhalfs-2.3.2 and once into jhalfs. This doesn't seem
 right.

 What clue am I missing?
 
 When you go into the VM, extract jhalfs to your /home directory (the 
 name doesn't matter).  Run from there.  jhalfs should create 
 /mnt/lfs/{jhalfs,sources}.  I tell it not to mess with sources and then 

What's the difference between that and running it from
/mnt/lfs/jhalfs-3.2.2? It's a different directory, yet
the tool complains. (BTW, I'm using /media, not /mnt, but
that's not a problem).

 just copy them manually to /mnt/lfs/sources, because I sometimes make 
 changes there.
 
 Another easy way is to get the lfs-wget file and do:
 
 cd /mnt/lfs/sources; wget -i ~/lfs-wget

I just posted (soon to appear, I guess) wondering where wget-list
is for 6.8, since I didn't find it.

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 
 When you go into the VM, extract jhalfs to your /home directory (the 
 name doesn't matter).  Run from there.  jhalfs should create 
 /mnt/lfs/{jhalfs,sources}.  I tell it not to mess with sources and then 
 just copy them manually to /mnt/lfs/sources, because I sometimes make 
 changes there.

I described what happens. It complains that the directory
structure of jhalfs, and that below, with the helper
scripts, doesn't exist. It does not create them.

Here's the exact error message when I did just what you describe:

LFS/master.sh: line 382: cd: /media/lfs/jhalfs/lfs-commands: No such 
file or directory.

THAT'S the problem I was reporting. The directory structure does not
get created, and jhalfs expects it to exist, and to contain the
support scripts which come from the tarball.

In past, a couple of times, I've extracted the tarball twice
to overcome this problem.

 Another easy way is to get the lfs-wget file and do:
 
 cd /mnt/lfs/sources; wget -i ~/lfs-wget

Where is the wget-list for 6.8? I haven't found it.

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Mike McCarty wrote:
 Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 When you go into the VM, extract jhalfs to your /home directory (the 
 name doesn't matter).  Run from there.  jhalfs should create 
 /mnt/lfs/{jhalfs,sources}.  I tell it not to mess with sources and then 
 just copy them manually to /mnt/lfs/sources, because I sometimes make 
 changes there.
 
 I described what happens. It complains that the directory
 structure of jhalfs, and that below, with the helper
 scripts, doesn't exist. It does not create them.
 
 Here's the exact error message when I did just what you describe:
 
 LFS/master.sh: line 382: cd: /media/lfs/jhalfs/lfs-commands: No such 
 file or directory.

So, I ran make again, and accepted everything the way it was,
no changes, and it got farther. This time it's mentioning
that it can't find /media/lfs/jhalfs/pkg_tarball_list for
Chapter5, and again for Chapter6,

grep: /media/lfs/jhalfs/pkg_tarball_list: No such file or directory.

When I do another make, it complains

mkdir: cannot create directory `chapter06-build_2': File exists.

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Don't know.  I'd have to look at the code.  I've always used ~/jhalfs 
 (with the current svn version).

Doesn't work for me, and hasn't worked for me, ever.

I just repeated a trial, and got the same result. It complains that
/media/jhalfs/lfs-commands does not exist.

 
 If you build the book, you get it automatically, but it's at
 
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/development/wget-list
 
 or
 
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/6.8/wget-list
 
 (they are different).

I can believe it. However, I didn't use VIEW, I used DOWNLOAD,
and it's not there. Is it supposed to be?

http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/download/6.8/wget-list

does not exist.

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Yes, it,s a little touchy.  You can get that when it's creating /tools, etc.
 too.
 Just delete the old stuff and start over.  The program is not very tolerant
 of errors and variations, but once you get it work the way you want, it's
 handy.

Are you familiar with the term finite state deterministic machine?

If run again, with no other changes, it produces the same results.

I believe that jhalfs-2.3.2 is -broken- and does not work. Perhaps
the one in svn does? Which one do you use?

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Re: JHALFS Incompatibilities

2011-04-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Yes, it,s a little touchy.  You can get that when it's creating /tools, etc.
 too.
 Just delete the old stuff and start over.  The program is not very tolerant
 of errors and variations, but once you get it work the way you want, it's
 handy.

I did what you suggest five times, and each time I got the
same error in the same place. I then downloaded using svn,
and ran that one, and got the same error in the same place.

svn said I checked out version 3535, whatever that means.

In any case, jhalfs is broken.

Mike
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Re: Incompatibility of udev and /usr

2011-04-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:

[...]

 While not universal, there seems to be a growing feeling that having a
 separate /usr partition serves no useful purpose these days. The third
 of those links gives a pretty good summary of that viewpoint.

Well, I also have read this argument, and it cuts no water
with me.

 As to compatibility with the FHS, distros seem inclined to ignore the
 spec, on the basis that it's not being updated, and no longer reflects
 reality (e.g no mention of /sys). Another discussion on that subject:
 
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2009/02/msg00395.html

Interesting. I was unaware of that. Thanks!

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Incompatibility of udev and /usr

2011-04-13 Thread Mike McCarty
There is an incompatibility with using udev and /usr being a
separate file system, which users of LFS need to be aware of.
It is presently not possible, in general, to use udev and have
/usr be a separately mounted file system. This is something to
consider when planning the layout of the disc drives. The current
implementation of udev is incompatible with the File System Hierarchy
Standard.

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Re: lfslivecd

2011-03-22 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 janu mam wrote:
 i am using lfs livex86-r2160 as host for building lfs book 6.7,
 in lfs6.7 book the following msg was there

 The LFS LiveCD might not work on newer hardware configurations,
 failing to boot or failing to detect
 some devices such as some SATA hard drives.

 shall i use for lfslivecd as host or use any linux destro
 
 Really you can use any distro, but you may have to ensure the 
 prerequisite packages are installed.  The lfs live CD is already set up 
 for you if it boots OK.
 
 Note that building off any live CD is relatively slow.

Why do you say that? IME, most of the time is spent in the
compiler, not reading the CD-ROM. It takes a few seconds to
read the CD-ROM to get the compiler going, and then it runs.
Usually, most of it gets cached.

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Re: Ruminations on Udev, null and console

2011-03-22 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 Not meaning to start an argument on that basis. But by 'modern'
 desktops, I meant recent versions of Gnome or KDE, compared to more
 lightweight setups.
 
 As to the relevance to the thread, I know I didn't make that clear, but
 my thinking was that device names really aren't very important to
 someone using one of those desktops. My DVD drive may be called 'sr0',

Erm?

 but more importantly, it's called CD/DVD drive on my desktop. And if I
 plug in a USB drive, I really have no idea what the device node is
 called - all that matters is that it's automatically mounted to
 somewhere under /media and a file manager window opened on it.

I have a cordial dislike for such interfaces, and never use them.
I always open up a terminal window, and then cd to the relevant
mount point and browse around with a CLI. I really don't like
to use those GUI things. So, actually knowing where the mount
took place means quite a bit more to me than to you, I suspect.

Frankly, I dislike having things automatically mount. How does
the system know what I want to do with a rewritable CD-ROM I
just stuck in? Hmm?

 For the same reason, recent kernel announcements about changing the
 network device naming don't exactly bother me - as far as I'm concerned,
 I have two network devices, called Wired and Wireless in Network
 Manager. The kernel calls them eth0 and wlan0, but if a patch were to
 rename them 'frog' and 'fish', I'd be unlikely to notice.

See, that's a significant difference in what one might call user
style. If you grew up with Windows 95, and love using a GUI interface,
then that may suit you. I don't know. I grew up with CP/M and really
do not like that style at all. So, it's useful to be able to know
what's going on.

Also, when things fail to work, it's hard to figure out what went
wrong with your GUI if you don't know where anything is.

 As to the rest, it may be I've misunderstood your original post - the
 confusion was over the claim that people are unaware they they have
 those nodes on the metal /dev. Given these nodes are explicitly
 created with a clear explanation as to why, it seemed to me that you
 must have overlooked this section in the book.

I installed udev on my main machine several years back, and found that
I didn't like it much, if at all, and removed it. However, since that's
the way of all future Linux progress (if one may characterize it
thusly) I've just accepted it as something my LFS machines have on them.

Unfortunately, My Machine, My Rules only goes so far.

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Re: Binutils Problem

2011-02-02 Thread Mike McCarty
J Falcetti wrote:
 How do would I know when I'm inside the directory?

Perhaps you need to re read the general instructions section.
Are you familiar with the cd and pwd commands?

First, you untar the tarball, then you cd to the directory
extracted from the tarball. For this particular build, you
then create a new directory and cd to that. The commands
would look something like this...

$ tar xzf binutils-2.20.1.tgz (or whatever the tarball is named)
$ cd binutils-2.20.1
$ mkdir –v ../binutils-build
$ cd ../binutils-build
$ ../binutils-2.20.1/configure \
--target=$LFS_TGT –prefix=/tools \
--disable-nls –disable-werror

This should work.

The commands given in the book all presume you've done something
like the first two commands above, before executing any other
commands peculiar to that package.

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Re: GCC Error chap-5.5

2011-01-31 Thread Mike McCarty
Martin Zajíc ZAJCA wrote:

[...]

 checking for suffix of object files... configure: error: in
 `/mnt/LFS/build/gcc-4.5.1-BUILD/x86_64-lfs-linux-gnu/libgcc':
 configure: error: cannot compute suffix of object files: cannot compile
 See `config.log' for more details.

Did you see `config.log' for details?

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Re: UnionFS Package Management

2011-01-27 Thread Mike McCarty
Smartboy wrote:
 I've been pursuing the UnionFS hint quite a bit over the past couple 
 years, though each attempt has either failed or I just never had time to 
 finish it. The biggest problem is that I don't know how to get 
 UnionFS/AUFS available during the Chapter 6 build, though I may have 

It would need to be present in the development system. During Chapter
6 we still aren't booting the system being built, we are still booting
the development system.

 founda  way aruond it if I install each package twice, once to its 
 location in /pkgs and once normally, then delete everything outside of 
 /pkgs (with /dev probably being an exception) when done. However, as my 
 university studies keep me busy, I don't actually have time to test this 
 and see if it would work.

That sounds more like the fake root approach. I've used the fake root
approach in serious (read: professional) development, and it has
very real advantages.

 As for AUFS vs UnionFS, I think AUFS is far superior to UnionFS to the 
 point where in some distros UnionFS isn't even provided (Arch offers 
 AUFS instead of UnionFS). I don't see any features in UnionFS that it 
 isn't in AUFS.

Well, that's the rumor, but I haven't seen any real data.

Thanks!

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Re: UnionFS Package Management

2011-01-27 Thread Mike McCarty
Smartboy wrote:
 It isn't enough just to install AUFS or UnionFS within the development 
 environment. I think it also needs something else, like being installed 
 in the host's kernel, though even after that I couldn't get AUFS to work 
 within a chroot.

Yes, that's part of installed. It must be present in the host's
kernel. I wonder what the problem was with a chroot? Were the support
mount etc. part of the chroot environment?

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UnionFS Package Management

2011-01-25 Thread Mike McCarty
Pursuing the subject of package management, I've been considering
the use more than one of the hints. One hint I've explored somewhat
is the Package User hint. I must admit, that while it's simple,
and attractive, I don't like burdening something which isn't intended
to track packages, namely user names, with that task. However, I do
like the additional security provided by having more or less normal
users rather than root doing maintenance.

Another idea I like quite a bit, having used it with similar version
control systems and package managers, is using a fake root build,
that is, installing to a destination other than the final one for
test before final install.

I've been pondering the adavantages of combining the Package User
with the Fake Root, and it appeals to me.
hints/downloads/files/more_control_and_pkg_man.txt
hints/downloads/files/fakeroot.txt
(possibly also crab)

However, after giving some consideration to the UnionFS Hint, I
wonder whether it might not go one step beyond the Fake Root.
hints/downloads/files/pkg_unionfs.txt

I see that it's not quite as simple as the author presents, since it
requires kernel patches and significant modifications to the
initialization process. However, it doesn't look all that difficult,
and fairly straightforward. It does require some holding one's tongue
just right.

However, I've heard rumors about UnionFS not being quite robust,
and wonder about that. I also note that it hasn't been put in
upstream, nor has its competitor AUFS.

I'd like to open discussion of relative merits and demerits. I like
the ability to load and unload packages live, and give things
a test drive before commiting to them.

I'd like others who have spent some reasonable amount of time thinking
about using the UnionFS approach to comment, both advantages and
disadvantages, and whether AUFS might be better and why.

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Re: Recommended LiveCD?

2011-01-20 Thread Mike McCarty
Someone Somebody wrote:
 I'm doing it inside VirtualBox and I want a LiveCD that supports
 VirtualBox's absoulute pointing device that is a feature that allows you

I'm not familiar with that feature.

 to use mouse pointer integration even without the guest additions installed
 which is quite useful when working from a LiveCD.
 
 The LFS LiveCD glitches with this feature (Position desync) so if there is a
 different LiveCD that won't require a lot of modification to build LFS with
 it that this feature works fine with will be quite helpful.

I've used QEMU to build LFS, and didn't experience any problem
with the mouse.

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Re: Recommended LiveCD?

2011-01-19 Thread Mike McCarty
Someone Somebody wrote:
 Since the LFS LiveCD is quite outdated, what would you recommend to use for
 building an LFS system with as minimal/no tweaking to the LiveCD required?

In what sense is it outdated? Does the current build require
something not on the LFS LiveCD?

If not, then unless the LiveCD just won't boot on your machine
for some reason, I see no reason not to use it.

Knoppix is one I would try, but I'd try the LFS LiveCD first.

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Re: Who uses package users?

2010-08-02 Thread Mike McCarty
Timothy Rice wrote:
 The graph is not acyclic.
 
 Hi Mac,
 
 That is true. The scripts would need to check for cycles and either bail
 out to admit manual treatment, or automagically call upon special cases.
 Ideally, the latter, once the basic idea is admitted as feasible. This
 could be implemented as follows:

Let me know when you get it working :-)

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Re: Who uses package users?

2010-08-02 Thread Mike McCarty
Timothy Rice wrote:
 Hey Dan,

[...]

 After I rebuild manually, I'd be more than happy to work with you and
 update the hint.
 
 Sounds good :-)

If ya'll really get something working, I'd sure love to see
it.

I understand why LFS is the way it is. However, I'd like to
be able to build a list of What I Want on My Machine, and
let it go, and some time later, have a system ready for me
to build a kernel and boot.

That's the major stopper for me actually abandoning my current
in-use distro and going with LFS. I have built LFS a few times
(like perhaps five) and made a system boot, but it's just too
boring to keep cutting and pasting, and checking when it's done,
to do on any regular basis, and I haven't attempted BLFS, b/c
it's just too much manual work.

I wouldn't want LFS to become another Gentoo, since it doesn't
give one the control LFS does over what gets installed and how.

OTOH, LFS really _really_ needs some sort of package manager
and version control, and so if you want that, then you can't use
JHALFS (as is, anyway).

I'd like to see some dependency management stuff in the package
manager and revision control systems. However, that's not really
what LFS is about.

So, if you get some stuff working, or partly working, please do let
us know here, and write some hints or sth similar.

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Re: Who uses package users?

2010-07-30 Thread Mike McCarty
Timothy Rice wrote:

[...]

 these other systems for dead. An example of what can be accomplished is to
 have scripts that parse the (B)LFS books for source locations and
 dependency information, and automatically download required files and
 install any dependencies, recursively. I know this sort of thing is
 possible because I've seen a java program that will scan the BLFS xml for
 dependencies and generate a dependency graph. It is just a matter of
 having the people with time, interest, and expertise to implement such
 ideas.

The graph is not acyclic.

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Re: LFS (Version SVN-20100529) - 5.9. Binutils-2.20.1 - Pass 2

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:

[...]

 That's experience talking, I might add. My LFS builds are almost always
 scripted, and more than once, I've investigated a compile problem that's

Is there a reason you prefer a script to an automated package like
JHALFS?

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OT: Search Engines

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Download locations may not always be accessible. If a download location 
 has changed since this book was published, Google 
 (http://www.google.com/) provides a useful search engine for most 
 packages. If this search is unsuccessful, try one of the alternative 

May I suggest that one use http://www.ixquick.com/ instead?
They have a much better privacy policy than Google, which
sells and guarantees governments that they'll cooperate
with surrendering info about you. Google also likes to plant
lots of cookies for enhancing your web experience, (i.e.
tracking where you go and how you get there).

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OT: Unix Backup Recovery CD-ROM

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
I was at a used book store and selected a copy of O'Reilly's
Unix Backup and Recovery nutshell series book for purchase.
One of our party became ill, and I left early to take her home.
When I retuned, the others had already made the purchase, and
I wound up with the book, but no companion CD-ROM, since they
didn't know to ask at the desk. I called the store, and they
don't know where the CD-ROM is now.

AFAIK, all the stuff on that CD-ROM is free stuff, except for
what is in the book, which I'd have to type in if I want to
use it. Does anyone have one of those, and could make an ISO
image of it available to me? It would sure save a lot of typing
and downloading and mistakes. I do have a legitimate copy of
the book.

Mike
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Re: OT: Unix Backup Recovery CD-ROM

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Danny Engelbarts wrote:
 
 That book mentions the site http://backupcentral.com/ i had a quick look and 

Thanks. I'll look there. I did do a search, and found the O'Reilly book
for sale from them, but no downloadable content.

 the site appears closely related and offers downloads of various free 
 stuff. 
 It also appears to have some additional/updated information.
 
 I do not have a copy of the book nor CD-ROM but using Google i found a pdf 
 copy which mentions the site. You could of course download such a pdf copy 
 and 
 copy and paste the larger script parts from that.

Well, the larger parts are actually not in the book. It simply
refers one to the CD-ROM. At least, the paper version of the book
does. However, I'll reasearch what you suggest.

Thanks again.

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Re: Ch. 6 GlibC Install Failure from Package Management--Which headers to use

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Dan McGhee wrote:
 You are absolutely right, but I would not characterize it as a problem, 
 but something to be considered and about which to make a decision.  In 
 fact, it's the reason I posted.  Using only the instructions in the LFS 
 book, this header file would be replaced three times--which may be the 
 answer to the questions.  It's first installed by the linux ABI headers 
 in Ch. 6 and then by GlibC in Ch. 6.  Then it would be replaced again 
 when the kernel was compiled and installed.  So maybe the answer is just 
 to use the kernel version.

I don't think so. The header needs to describe the API actually
implemented, which is the one provided by GLIBC. I would not install
the stuff the kernel uses, since that's not what your applications
(when you build some later) will be linked against. They'll link
against GLIBC, and that's what I'd use.

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Re: OT: Unix Backup Recovery CD-ROM

2010-07-14 Thread Mike McCarty
Tony Sauri wrote:
 On Thu, 15 Jul 2010 11:45, Mike McCarty wrote:
 Well, the larger parts are actually not in the book. It simply
 refers one to the CD-ROM. At least, the paper version of the book
 does. However, I'll reasearch what you suggest.
 
 Are these the scripts you are looking for?

I'm sure they are part of what is on the disc. Thanks for the link!

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Re: Problem installing the nouveau driver

2010-07-02 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Thu, 2010-07-01 at 17:59 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
 Apparently, it's the stated non-goal to support switching back
 by the authors (or at least owners) of the driver.
 So, unless he's willing to get the source for the driver, and
 rewrite portions of it himself, there's not going to be a way
 to go back.
 
 I don't think it's a matter of Nouveau specifically, as the kernel
 graphics infrastructure in general. Having any such driver loaded means
 using the graphics-mode console. That's the impression I got from
 Stephane's comments to Alex, and it makes sense to me that things work
 that way.

If the driver supports changing modes, and there is an app which
can make an ioctl() call, then the change can be made. The kernel
probably won't notice the change, and it may get confused if,
while the mode is selected, some other app (like the window manager)
tries to make a call to display something. OTOH, my version (with
X and GNOME) seems to switch to 80x25 very easily when I press
CTRL-ALT-F1 through CTRL-ALT-F6, so the kernel must support
_something_ along those lines.

I'm not an expert in what the kernel does to manage the display.

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Re: Compilation problem for binutils

2010-07-02 Thread Mike McCarty
$reeHari wrote:
 *This is the note on http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/livecd :
 Note:* The LiveCD is no longer being maintained. However, it still works
 well for many purposes, including as a vehicle to build LFS. The packages
 and the rendered LFS book on the CD are quite out of date. To use the CD to
 build LFS, download the current book and all packages from one of the
 mirrors. **
 
 I missed this note . So i guess i've to download the packages one by one to
 be used with version 6.6 of the book . nyway thnx everyone for the support

Good luck with the build. Let us know how things come out.

Mike
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Re: LFS (Version SVN-20100529) - 5.9. Binutils-2.20.1 - Pass 2

2010-07-02 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:
 On Friday 02 July 2010 07:53:19 Ken Moffat wrote:
 
  ... but people can make the same error each time.
 
 And that's really OK: it's a mere reflection of their computer skills and we 
 can help them with that. But expecting different results every time is a sure 
 sign of insanity, or so I'm told. :) :)

Nah, just a symptom of running on old unmaintained hardware. :-)
Makes life interesting, though!

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Re: If SBU measure include test time?

2010-07-01 Thread Mike McCarty
littlebat wrote:

[...]

 I sugguest adding a note in SBU section such as: the test time should
 be included into SBU measure in Chapter 6 if the package has a testsuite
 and shouldn't be included into SBU measure in Chapter 5 anyway.
 Although it will not affect us to make a working LFS without the
 changing on wording.

The SBU measure is a very rough'n'ready type thing. One should not
expect that one can run the build on something which takes 2 SBU and
from that know how long, to the minute, another package taking 2 SBU
will take. It depends on how much swapping takes place, how much RAM
you have, how fast your discs are relative to your processor, what
bus speeds you have, etc., and two packages with identical SBU measures
are not going to take identical amounts of time.

 Until today, I haven't reached the jhalfs. But thanks your information
 anyway.

JHALFS is not part of LFS, it's part of meta-LFS.

Mike
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Re: Problem installing the nouveau driver

2010-07-01 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Wed, 2010-06-30 at 13:25 -0500, Mike McCarty wrote:
 Simon Geard wrote:
 On Tue, 2010-06-29 at 10:25 -0500, al...@verizon.net wrote:
 You were ok up to here...
 
 A combination of trying to simplify, and trying to remember stuff I last
 played with in college, back when accelerated graphics add-on cards were
 a rarity... :)

Yes, it's been a while, hasn't it :-)

 That font is implemented in ROM inside the graphics controller, not
 the BIOS. To get access to it, one simply has to command the controller
 to use it. If one does that, the boot screen content usually magically
 reappears, unless one also switches to a different RAM page for display,
 or if some frame buffer mode was used during boot.
 
 Ok, so that stuff is on the video card, not the motherboard?

It's inside the video processor itself, usually. Whether that be mounted
on the MB or on a separate card it's not part of the BIOS (EE)ROM.

 Nevertheless, the point was more to do with the two ways of talking to
 that controller - either by treating it as an modern NVidia card (as
 Nouveau does), or as an antique VGA chip (as the BIOS does). And the
 latter isn't consistent with Nouveau's purpose in providing the former.

Apparently, it's the stated non-goal to support switching back
by the authors (or at least owners) of the driver.
So, unless he's willing to get the source for the driver, and
rewrite portions of it himself, there's not going to be a way
to go back.

The kinds of technique of installing special fonts is the only
reasonably easy way forward toward his goal. Even then, the
boot messages aren't going to come back, unless he writes some
special driver code to read the RAM for the text page(s) which
contain them, and then issue commands to redraw the active
graphics page that content using the appropriate font.

None of this seems worth the effort, to me. However, it's not
my system nor my time.

Mike
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Re: Compilation problem for binutils

2010-07-01 Thread Mike McCarty
$reeHari wrote:
 Hi , thanks 4 the replies . I used version 6.3 of the book coz the livecds
 of lfs contained only packages for version 6.3 of the book . since version
 6.6 uses newer versions of packages and livecd with all the required
 packages are not available , i would have to download each package
 separately . dats y i opted ver 6.3 . If there is a livecd compatible with

What is the problem with that? You already took the time to download
the LiveCD, I presume.

 version 6.6 of the book , pls let me know . I didn't find one in

The 6.3 LiveCD should be compatible with building version 6.6.

 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/livecd/download.html however . all the
 images in there were for ver 6.3 of de book .

That's true. It won't prevent you from using the LiveCD to do
the build.

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Re: Problem installing the nouveau driver

2010-06-30 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 On Tue, 2010-06-29 at 10:25 -0500, al...@verizon.net wrote:

You were ok up to here...

 The 80x25 mode you boot in is special in that regard, because that
 combination of pixels and fonts is implemented in the BIOS itself, as a
 standard feature going back 20 years. And being provided by the BIOS,
 it's not available if something else is driving the hardware.

That font is implemented in ROM inside the graphics controller, not
the BIOS. To get access to it, one simply has to command the controller
to use it. If one does that, the boot screen content usually magically
reappears, unless one also switches to a different RAM page for display,
or if some frame buffer mode was used during boot.

 An aside: One thing you might have noticed under the NVIDIA binaries. If
 you switch from X to a console, it switches back to 80x25, since those
 drivers are X only. When you switch back to X, they take over again, and
 have to work out what state the hardware is in - occasionally you see

Actually, they need to remember what state the controller was in.

 corruption (usually in OpenGL apps), where the drivers haven't gotten it
 right. I've once seen black and white patterns reminiscent of a text
 console appearing in textures, for example, as if the BIOS had put
 something into video memory, and NVIDIA hadn't cleared it out again.

That's certainly possible, and can be caused by the video processor
being in the right mode, but using the wrong RAM page.

 It's a driver bug when it happens, of course, but I mention it to
 illustrate the conflict between BIOS and OS driving the hardware.

Yep.

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Re: Problem installing the nouveau driver

2010-06-29 Thread Mike McCarty
al...@verizon.net wrote:
 On Jun 29, 07:40:18 AM, Simon wrote:
 
 I'm confused.  So before we go to the _exact_ steps of

Yes. You are conflating almost unrelated things.
I'm not a specialist on that particular video processor,
so take what I write here with a little grain of salt
here and there. However, I've written video drivers for
MSDOS which handled many of the same kinds of modes
for (no longer produced) video boards.

 how to set a font in kernel which would take effect after
 nouveau is up, I want to establish a common ground.
 
 With nouveau, my boot-up goes through these basic steps:
 
 1. The original/regular console sequence (80x25)

Yes, if that's what you have selected. Some BIOS used to
allow boot in different modes. I haven't seen that in modern
ones, however.

 2. Nouveau is loaded by UDEV

This I don't know about, but it makes sense.

 3. At this point, the console goes blank for a sec or so.
  The preceding messages are wiped out.

Not quite. The video processor has been commanded to switch
to a graphics mode, and is now using different RAM. Usually,
the previous messages are still held in the character mode RAM.
If you issue a command to the video processor to switch back
to character mode, then the original text will probably reappear.

 4. The remainder of the boot-up sequence proceeds and stays
 in 240x67 all the way to the prompt (and beyond).
 
 5. I can never change the 240x67 resolution of the console
 text mode.

That's a very strong statement. If your driver permits it,
then there's nothing I can think of about the hardware
which wouldn't do exactly what you seem to want. Temper my
statement, because I'm not expert in that exact hardware.

As a test, try booting up KNOPPIX, and then shutting down.
I trow you'll see the original text boot stuff reappear
on your screen after X shuts down.

 QUESTION
 Does anybody have/see a different behavior?
 
 NOTE
 I can imagine people going directly to X (graphics mode).

X and graphics mode have nothing to do with each other,
except that X expects the video driver to be able to
execute graphics commands. IOW, one can have graphics
mode without X, but not the other way 'round. The BIOS
is capable of displaying text on the screen, even when
the display is in (certain) graphics modes.

One could presumably boot to MSDOS, select a graphics mode,
and then use loadlin to boot Linux with an initial graphics
mode. X requires a boatload of other stuff to be loaded
and running before it can go. That's why you don't see
X used during boot. It sits on top of the kernel, so the
kernel can't use it during bootstrap. X also wants a video
driver installed. So, X can't be loaded until boot is
actually over, and init is running, I think. Someone may
want to correct me on that; I'm not an expert in Linux
boot sequence. Howver, believe I've not seen X started until after
init was running, and boot is, technically, over, and all
we're doing is loading applications. Some may want to
niggle about precisely when boot is over, but in my mind,
once the kernel is running, and we could now produce a
login prompt, then boot is over, and we're just loading
apps and initializing optional peripherals used by them.

This is somewhat happens when one uses a frame buffer mode
during boot. There is an initial graphics mode selected
for the display, which is then used pretty much just to
display text (though some use a little splash at the
start with a graphic in it, which then gets scrolled
off).

 In that case, to stay with me on step 4 above, just come
 down in console text mode for a moment or so
 (Ctrl-Alt-Backspace or whatever) and check the ensuing
 text resolution.

Again, you seem to be conflating X with graphics mode.
Graphics mode is a hardware setting. X is a software
package. The driver sits under X and on top of the
hardware. When X wants to issue a command to the hardware,
it does so by making calls to the driver, via an API.
The driver interprets the request, and issues actual
hardware commands to the video processor. The exact commands
to the hardware are hardware specific, which is why
you need different drivers for different video processors.

 BTW, I'm interesting in the answer to my question above
 more than in comments to this note :)

I don't understand that statement. I've tried to address
misconceptions on your part in this reply.

 BTW, the _exact_ steps of how to set a font in kernel which
 would take effect after nouveau is up, will be highly
 appreciated.
 
 Thanks,
 -- Alex


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Re: Help with Glib-c 2.11.1 Pass 1 (ch 5.7) in LFS 6.6

2010-06-29 Thread Mike McCarty
Andrew Benton wrote:
 On 29/06/10 11:50, Saxon Landers wrote:
 Hi there, im new to the mailing list, so please correct me if i make any
 mistakes.

 I have used linux for some time, and wanted to make my own, so ive gone
 for LFS.
 I am compiling onto a SanDisk Cruzer 4gb portable USB flash drive, so i
 am using /dev/sdb (without a specific partition) to save space.
 
 Is that even possible? How are you going to mount it if it doesn't have 
 a partition?

The mount command should be able to mount anything with a file system
in it. CD-ROMS don't have partitions, nor do native USB sticks,
nor floppies, nor ISO images, nor other files with file systems
in them. AFAIK, there's no file system type defined for tapes,
but with the proper definitions and driver, one would be able
to mount a tape. I've done so with other operating systems
which have that capability.

If mount can't do it, then mount is broken.

Mike
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Re: Help with Glib-c 2.11.1 Pass 1 (ch 5.7) in LFS 6.6

2010-06-29 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:
 On Tuesday 29 June 2010 12:57:21 Mike McCarty wrote:

[about partitions]

 The mount command should be able to mount anything with a file system
 in it. CD-ROMS don't have partitions, nor do native USB sticks,

[...]

 An explicit example: 'mount -t ext3 /dev/sdb /mnt'. Oh, some USB sticks have 
 partitions, but perhaps they aren't 'native'?

I used that term for lack of knowledge of a better one. Perhaps raw
would have been better. I was trying to convey the idea that some,
though not all, USB sticks don't have PTs in them. Some USB sticks have
PTs in them with just one entry, which seems a waste of ROM to me,
unless one also puts boot code in there and intends to boot from it.

Mike
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Re: Weird issue with Texlive 2010

2010-06-28 Thread Mike McCarty
William Immendorf wrote:
 When I try to convert a Texinfo document into a DVI/PS file or an PDF
 file, texi2dvi complains that texinfo.tex is broken, despite it being

That's the exact full error message? texinfo.tex is broken?

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Re: A sed syntax

2010-06-23 Thread Mike McCarty
littlebat wrote:
 Hi,
 I am learning LFS BOOK:
 http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/lfs/view/6.6/chapter05/adjusting.html
 
 Below is a sed syntax I can't understand and haven't found a place to
 learn it. 
 code
 sed -e /^\*cpp:$/{n;s,$, -isystem /tools/include,}
 /code

You already got a good answer, perhaps a little more detail helps...
I'm no sed expert, but this is the way I read that command.

sed the command

-e  means execute this little program which follows

   the quotes are necessary to keep the shell from
trying to do stuff with what's here, and to make
what follows all one argument to the program

/   sed looks at the first character, and takes that
to be the delimeter. So, everything from here to
the next / is the address sed will use to select
lines from the file; the program gets executed on lines
which match this pattern, all other lines pass through
unchanged

^   this indicates that the pattern must start at
the beginning of the line

\*  we have to escape the *, or the shell will try to
put file names in there, hence the \ to make this
a literal *

cpp:more string to look for

$   this says that when we've matched what went before,
we must next find end of line, so, the entire line
must be *cpp:, so the command gets executed only
on lines which contain *cpp: and nothing else

/   here's the other delimeter / which ends the address

{   this tells sed that what is contained is the script to
execute, when we find a matching line; we do so up to
the closing }

n   Read/append the next line of input into the pattern space
IOW, print what has been matched so far (*cpp:) and
then work on the next line

;   end of n command, so all we print is just *cpp:
we use ; to put multiple commands together, so this
separates the n command from the s command

s   now we start a substitute command

,   this is taken by sed to be the delimter of the string
to substitute for; this could be any character, like
the / above; the s command wants

sdelimstring to finddelimstring to subdelim

where delim may be any character you like, but all three
must be the same. In this case, ,

$   the pattern we are going to substitute for is end of line...

,   ... and nothing else, the second , matches the one above
and ends the search string

  -isystem /tools/include
this is the string to substitute at end of line

,   here's the third delimeter

}   this marks end-of-command

   this is the matching quote for the shell to see

HTH

Mike
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Re: Can't compile hsfmodem driver in LFS 6.6.

2010-06-23 Thread Mike McCarty
rhubarb...@poetworld.net wrote:

[...]

 Unfortunately, linuxant support has been less than helpful.  Apparently 
 they view the problem as incorrectly behaving low-level OS tools on my 
 box.  Huh?  I realize I'm not incapable of error, but I've run LFS and 
 their driver on my box for several years.  Other than my linuxant 
 problem everything seems to be working quite well.  What might 
 incorrectly behaving low-level OS tools on my box mean?  What should I 
 check.

They are suggesting that your compiler/assembler/linker tool chain
may have a fault, I think.

[...]

 So, perhaps the problem IS on my side, but everything else seems to be 
 working quite well.  I'm at a loss.  What should I check?  What 
 information should I provide?

You'd need to ask them what they want.

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Re: Can't compile hsfmodem driver in LFS 6.6.

2010-06-23 Thread Mike McCarty
rhubarb...@poetworld.net wrote:
 They are suggesting that your compiler/assembler/linker tool chain
 may have a fault, I think.

 
 I checked the messages during my build carefully and believe all were 
 correct.  Is there a post-build test?

Apparently, yes. You try to build hsfmodem driver :-)

 You'd need to ask them what they want.


 
 Unfortunately it's a Catch-22.  They want an error log, which I would 
 gladly provide.  Unfortunately, their new driver package produces no 
 log, although their older package does (on my LFS 6.6 build).

Hmm. It might be possible to modify the Makefile so an error log is
created, by diffing the new with the old Makefile, and putting in
a few mods.

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Re: stripping down lfs

2010-06-23 Thread Mike McCarty
Eric Miller wrote:
 hey all...haven't been here since 2002 lolz.
 
 I'm hoping to build a stripped down LFS to use on a livecd that will do one
 thing only:  present the user with a simple scripted text menu, and then
 (based on the menu input) .dd an image to a usb thumb drive.

You might consider using busybox.
You could unmaster the LiveCD, and then strip the image down to
just what you need, install busybox, then remaster it.

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Re: A typo in the wget-list

2010-06-22 Thread Mike McCarty
Philippe Delavalade wrote:
 Hello.
 
 There is a typo (imho) in the wget-list of the svn-20100622 ;
 line 11 is
 http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net//expect/expect-5.44.1.15.tar.bz2
 and should be
 http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/expect/expect-5.44.1.15.tar.bz2
 with one '/' and not two.

That may be a typo, but it shouldn't affect the download. URLs are
permitted repeated slashes.

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Re: Urgent

2010-06-22 Thread Mike McCarty
prakhar gaur wrote:
 
 Dear Jai,
 
 Instead  of buying books and all.
 Just start working with LFS.  If you got the mail-list id, then I am
 sure that you know the place to download the book(LFS-6.6)
 But be sure to go through the pre-requisite reading list though. 

Building LFS will not teach OS concepts. What constitutes an
OS is also not well defined. A small RTOS may comprise not much
more than a scheduler or task switcher.

I suggest the book uC/OS which leads one through the construction
of a small RTOS which is fairly easily portable to multiple
architectures, and describes how the OS works internally.

http://www.amazon.com/Performance-Preemptive-Multitasking-Microprocessors-Microcontrollers/dp/0982337531

Simply building and installing a kernel and support apps like
ls, find etc. won't teach much about how they work.

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Re: A typo in the wget-list

2010-06-22 Thread Mike McCarty
Danny Engelbarts wrote:
 
 Sourceforge is probably doing some url rewrite magic that doesn't account for 
 repeated slashes.

Then it is violating the Standard, I believe. This should be
reported to them, I think.

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Re: priority in install of packages

2010-06-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Paul Rogers wrote:
 I think there is an assumption being made that everybody around the
 world would automagically relate to books the way we native English
 speakers do.  There are people who read books back to front.

Not by me. My presumption was that he did have a problem knowing
what the different entries in the appendix exactly meant. That's
why I provided an explanation for one of them. I speak three languages
tolerably, myself, and English is not my first language (though my
first language is a european one, so left-to-right). At one time
I could somewhat get by in Arabic.

In any case, everyone who reads English has access to a dictionary,
and so can look up the word appendix. Be that as it may, he's
specifically mentioned that he knows he's deviating from the established
order.

 moh...@pahlevanzadeh.org  It's clear Mohsen is not a native English
 speaker, and a minimal knowledge of world history suggests (without

Yes.

 doing a host lookup) that pahlevanzadeh.org is a Persian/Iranian
 site.  Obviously, because he asked the question, the book isn't clear
 enough to non-English speakers about the sequence of building.  Saying

That I don't grasp. Anyone who reads English knows what direction
to read a book.

 Follow book, book good isn't helpful when one doesn't grasp, for
 cultural or linguistic reasons, what you mean by follow.

Agreed. That's why I presented an analysis of one of the appendix
entries.

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Re: priority in install of packages

2010-06-16 Thread Mike McCarty
Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
 On Wed, 2010-06-16 at 22:54 +1200, Simon Geard wrote:
 On Tue, 2010-06-15 at 21:45 +0430, Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
 In appendex (Dependency section), we have 2 part for each package:
 The appendix is for information only. When it comes to installing
 packages, follow the *exact* instructions in the main book, in the
 *exact* order they're in.

 Simon.
 Dear Simon,
 Do you mean i follow exact same book 5-1 5-2 and 5-end ?

You need to download a copy of the book from the web site,
so it doesn't change as you read it. You need to start at
the beginning of the book, and follow each instruction as
you encounter it. I'm reluctant to say follow it exactly
since some of them are not exact instructions. For example,
the instruction to partition the disc drive. No one can
put _exact_ instructions on how to partition your disc,
and different people have different ideas about how exactly
a disc should be set up.

That said, you need to start at the beginning, and perform
each step in the order you encounter it as you read,
and conform as closely as possible to the literal content
you read.

You need to do this each time you build, until you become
familiar enough with the process to know where, and by
how much, it is safe to deviate from the instructions
as they are written.

If you don't do that, then you are almost surely going to
encounter a problem somewhere along the way, likely requiring
you to start over from the beginning.

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Re: priority in install of packages

2010-06-15 Thread Mike McCarty
Mohsen Pahlevanzadeh wrote:
 
 In appendex (Dependency section), we have 2 part for each package:
 1.Must be installed before 2.Installation depend on.
 now i don't know when i want to install package x, see 1 or 2 and
 install packages before compile package x.please guide me

If you ask a concrete question, you'll get a concrete answer.

I pulled this from the book

[QUOTE]
Every package built in LFS relies on one or more other packages
in order to build and install properly. Some packages even
participate in circular dependencies, that is, the first package
depends on the second which in turn depends on the first. Because
of these dependencies, the order in which packages are built in
LFS is very important.
[END QUOTE]

For most people, this is enough of an answer. The relationships
between the packages are complex. The dev team has worked out
a build order which works. Don't tinker with it.

Here's some more:

[QUOTE]

Autoconf
Installation depends on: Bash, Coreutils, Grep, M4, Make, Perl, Sed, and 
Texinfo
Test suite depends on: Automake, Diffutils, Findutils, GCC, and Libtool
Must be installed before: Automake
Optional dependencies: Emacs

[END QUOTE]

This means that you can't build and install Autoconf unless you have
already built and installed Bash, Coreutils, Grep, M4, Make, Perl, Sed, 
and Texinfo.

You can't test Autoconf unless you have already built and installed
Automake, Diffutils, Findutils, GCC, and Libtool.

You can't build and install Automake unless you have already built
and installed Autoconf.

If later you build and install Emacs, it is recommended that you
go back and build and reinstall Autoconf.

Does that answer your question?

Mike
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Re: live and learn

2010-06-11 Thread Mike McCarty
piper.guy1 wrote:
 Thanks for all your tips, advice, lectures, opinions, etc. Very
 positive community. I think I'm going to enjoy my LFS experience. I

That's one thing I really like here, unlike the user support lists
for standard distros, which are full of bickering and posturing.

[...]

 Now if one makes the same mistake more than once then that's a
 differnt story. :-)

Depends on how long between same mistakes. Be sure to do
as few activities as you can with root authorization. Don't
log in as root. Use sudo or su - to change to root temporarily,
and then immediately exit back. Use a red colored prompt
when running with root authorization.

 So until my next learning experience, Ciao for now.
 /carl h.

Hope you keep learning for a long time.

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Config Guidelies

2010-06-11 Thread Mike McCarty
Since, with LFS, we are much more in the driver's seat when it
comes to system config, I thought perhaps a pointer to some
guidelines might be appropriate.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080119033620/www.cert.org/tech_tips/unix_configuration_guidelines.html

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Re: live and learn

2010-06-10 Thread Mike McCarty
Simon Geard wrote:
 I quite like an idea Fedora are working on - if installed to a btrfs
 partition, use it's snapshot support to provide an easy rollback option
 when installing updates.
 
 I've been meaning to try that approach myself, since I've trashed more
 than a few systems while trying to update them.

Hey, if you find out more, please do post information here!
That sounds like a very attractive possibility.

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Re: live and learn

2010-06-09 Thread Mike McCarty
Andrew Benton wrote:
 On 08/06/10 21:54, Mike McCarty wrote:
 piper.guy1 wrote:
 Sooo...before I do something else that I'm not suppose to do, I
 thought I'd get advise first. My thinking is that I need to get a
 Linux rescue or recovery CD, mount the file system on the hard drive,
 and then add a symlink to bash. Make sense or is there an easier way?
 That seems like the most obvious way to put the system back the
 way it was. If you want to get the system more prepared for
 the future, you could change the entry in /etc/passwd for your
 login to point to /bin/dash or whatever for all users you actually
 need to use, like root, yourself, and lfs or whoever.
 
 Safer than editing /etc/passwd by hand is to use the command usermod 
 (read man usermod). Eg (as root)
 usermod -s /bin/bash $USERNAME

Yes, that's the recommended procedure. I wasn't intending to suggest
using an editor.

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Re: live and learn

2010-06-09 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:
 Mike McCarty wrote:
 
 Yeah, deleting the link without changing your /etc/passwd entry
 to point to a valid shell would do that.
 
 Changing the /etc/password file won't do much.  The bootscripts need 
 /bin/sh.

I'm talking about his host, not LFS. I have no idea what his
boot scripts need on his host machine.

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Re: live and learn

2010-06-09 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:

[...]

 mid-nineties. And just a couple weeks ago, I overwrote a disk that contained 
 half of a couple striped MD filesystems. Lost nearly 10 years of pics and 
 history. Another time, while redesigning the Smoothwall build system, I 

Of course, you've got it all on backup.

[...]

 So if all you did was wipe out a link to a shell, you haven't tried hard 
 enough. :) Almost any Linux distro that has a rescue mode (even Debian's 

I agree with this assessment. One of the reasons I _never_ log in as
root, and my normal user has no special priviledges at all.

[...]

 And, yes, I have done 'rm -rf *' when in the root directory on my old ATT 
 UNIXPC. I've since learned to be more careful. But, clearly, not careful 
 enough. :) 

I recall an old DEC system which ran Mt.Xinu (which is Unix tm
backwards). The sysadmin for that machine was absolutely clueless
about hierarchical file systems, and system integrity and security,
and put all the directories in /, and all users were just aliases
for user number 0 (root). About once a month they had to rebuild
the system from scratch because someone would fat finger an rm,
like

# rm -rf /fred

typed as

# rm -rf / fred

which would run for quite a while, then say it couldn't
find fred, after which ls wouldn't work, etc.

[...]

 As Mike says, LFS is not for newbies. Though I might allow that it is not for 
 newbies who have only one computer. Keep a computer, any computer, handy for 
 internet access to search for the mistakes you make and how others have 
 recovered. At least technically, we humans learn from our mistakes and are 

I recommend that the build be done on the spare and the main machine
not be poked around with. If you absolutely only have one machine,
then put an empty disc in it. Until you have a good amount of experience
doing builds, anyway. I've worked as a professional programmer since
1982, and been doing systems support building various kernels (even
wrote a few RTOS kernels) since about 1984 or so, and I've porked
my main system once.

[...]

 A possible future enhancement to 'the book' might be to incorporate 
 checkboxes 
 that a newbie would check off as she performs each step. Extra work? Yes. But 
 worth it to make each step clearer? Yes again.

Possibly. However, who prints the book? Mostly, I was cut'n'pasting
the commands.

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Re: live and learn

2010-06-09 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:

[...]

 But you are right. I had no backups and no excuses. I have an empty 400GB 
 drive that would have held most of that data. And there's no reason I could 
 not have saved all the pics to DVDs. I didn't. I lost. Oh, well. No one died, 
 and no critters or humans were harmed, so no foul. :) Too bad I didn't wipe 
 out my ripped CDs. I could've re-ripped them. Sigh.

My backups are stored about 13 miles from my machine so I can have
a fire burn it up and destroy the discs, and not lose much. BTW, making
a good backup which is consistent is not as easy as it sounds. I
always drop to single user mode, unmount everything, run fscks on
it all, then remount read only, and then do the backup.

Mike
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Re: live and learn

2010-06-08 Thread Mike McCarty
piper.guy1 wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Started reading and doing what the book says (6.6). Didn't take too
 long before I got myself into trouble. :-(

Hee hee! Aren't we having fun! Before starting in on something
like this, be sure your backup and recovery procedure works well.

So, join the explicitly non exclusive club of those who have
porked their systems. One time when I was building LFS using the
alongside hint, I decided to start over, and after exiting the
chroot environment, but with the chroot environment mounts still in
place, as root, I

# cd LFS/6.3
# rm -rf build

and deleted /dev from my host system! No discs, no printers, no
terminals, etc. I rebooted with a Knoppix disc, let it populate
/dev, and then mounted my hard drive, and copied (yes copied
using cp) /dev onto my hard drive. That got my system up enough
to find out how /dev got built on my distro from a helpful
distro e-mail support group, and get it back again. No udev on
this machine, so it was definitely a little adventure.

 In  Host system Requirements, the instructions explicitly wants
 '/bin/sh' to be pointing to bash. Mine was pointing to dash. So I
 endeavoured to change it by deleting the symlink and then create
 another symlink to point to bash. However, being a naive newbie all
 hell broke loose when I deleted the symlink, and everything was
 misbehaving. So, before I realized what I had done I logged out
 rebooted and then couldn't log back in anymore.

Yeah, deleting the link without changing your /etc/passwd entry
to point to a valid shell would do that.

 Sooo...before I do something else that I'm not suppose to do, I
 thought I'd get advise first. My thinking is that I need to get a
 Linux rescue or recovery CD, mount the file system on the hard drive,
 and then add a symlink to bash. Make sense or is there an easier way?

That seems like the most obvious way to put the system back the
way it was. If you want to get the system more prepared for
the future, you could change the entry in /etc/passwd for your
login to point to /bin/dash or whatever for all users you actually
need to use, like root, yourself, and lfs or whoever. You could
then install /bin/bash and make the symlink point to that.

Another way would be to put in the symlink to /bin/dash, build
and install /bin/bash, and then repoint the symlink. Then try
logging out and back in, and see if you get some traction.

This can be done with another login still active, so you can
do some test, without porking your machine, having another
login to put things back.

 Any recommendations on a rescue disk?

I like Knoppix Vers 5.x So far, I'm not so impressed with Knoppix
Vers 6. Kanotix is another which is pretty good. I've also used
sysrescuecd, which has another set of tools. Almost anything which
can boot, recognize your disc, and make a symlink is enough. That'll
be any LiveCD version of Linux. You can have a look here

http://www.livecdlist.com/

and find one which suits your fancy. I like Puppy Linux for some stuff.
Feather Linux is pretty good, though I don't like it as much. I
like DSL a lot, and it should be capable of doing what you want.
The small distros like that have the advantage of not taking so long
to download. I've run DSL on an AMD 586 (486 class machine) with
only 16Meg of RAM, and no capability to boot from a CD-ROM, by using
SMB (smart boot manager) on a floppy.

So, nearly anything can get DSL up and running. It's a nice lean system.

 One more thing. Seeing that this is a very risky thing to be advising
 in LFS 6.6, can I suggest that the authour(s) add some caveats around
 this instruction?

Hmm. LFS is not for newbies. It would be difficult to put in
explicit enough instructions for a newbie to follow, without
making the instructions somewhat distro dependent. It's not
my call, anyway, since I'm just another LFS booster, not on
the support team.

Besides, porking your main machine to the point where it won't
boot, and figuring out how to get it back is half the fun, isn't
it? :-)

Mike
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Re: LFS-6.6, Stage2, glibc, nscd.c:442

2010-06-07 Thread Mike McCarty
Bruce Dubbs wrote:

[...]

 After configure:
 
 #ifdef TARGET_LIBC_PROVIDES_SSP
 #undef TARGET_LIBC_PROVIDES_SSP
 #endif
 
 #define TARGET_LIBC_PROVIDES_SSP 1

Modern C compilers do not require that little idiom to prevent
a warning. #undefine-ing something which is not defined is not
supposed to gen a warning.

$ cat undef.c
#undef FRED
#undef FRED

int main(void) {
 return 0;
}

$ gcc -o undef undef.c
$

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Re: perl, gdbm and perl's obsequious help

2010-06-03 Thread Mike McCarty
Neal Murphy wrote:
 On Thursday 03 June 2010 04:08:33 Simon Geard wrote:
 Can you be more specific about the problems you're seeing? Does the perl
 executable fail to run at all, unable to link to libgdbm.so? Or is it
 something less obvious?

 Simon.
 

[...]

 
 That's when I dug into perl's configure script and eventually discovered that 
 LFS' standard two config options are not enough to adequately shield the 
 toolchain build from the host system. Given the scant documentation, you'd 

That's very interesting. Back in the past when I worked on a compiler
I helped develop, we often ran into places where we couldn't test a
fix unless we compiled, then compiled with the new object, then
compiled again, etc. IIRC, at one time it took four recompiles to
expunge the problem. I recall several times when we'd argue (there were
two of us on the dev team) about whether we had done it enough, because
it was so difficult to figure out exactly what wound up in the
executable.

 think '-Dstatic_ext='Data/Dumper Fcntl IO POSIX' would be enough. It isn't. 
 You also have to tell it to build ONLY those extensions, to look ONLY 
 in /tools/lib for libraries, and to look ONLY in /tools/include for headers. 
 (Alas, a year later, I don't remember why the inc_version_list is necessary.)
 
 If you don't add these four options, perl's configure will spelunk through 
 the 
 HOST's tree looking for features it should support. This behaviour is EXACTLY 
 what most people want when they build and install perl on their running 
 system. Alas, it is exactly what you do NOT want when building a bootstrap 
 toolchain.

Sounds like a difficult find, and an easy fix. Thanks for reporting
back. I wonder how it escapes the chroot environment. Ah, I see,
when the /tools/* stuff gets built, Perl puts it into there, and
then when building in the chroot, it's in /tools, so it puts it in, and
then there's a problem after reboot.

Mike
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Re: LFS-6.6, Stage2, glibc, nscd.c:442

2010-06-02 Thread Mike McCarty
Danny Engelbarts wrote:
 On Wednesday 02 June 2010 21:22:07 Mike McCarty wrote:
 Paul Rogers wrote:
 have one system that trails, i.e. has exactly the package versions
 specified in the HSR, and verifies that each version of LFS does in
 fact  install flawlessly with those prerequisites.
 Volunteers welcomed.
 I reported it doesn't work with 6.1, that's as close as I had. And the
 response I got was, paraphrasing, use 6.3, it's known to work.  There
 seemed to be a complete lack of recognition of it being a problem with
 the book.  Frankly, the resistance I experienced getting general
 recognition the problem should be taken seriously hasn't engendered much
 desire to volunteer.  I don't care for this sort of welcome.
 I haven't followed this thread very closely, so perhaps that explains
 my confusion. What, precisely, is the problem with the book? Do you
 want the authors to add a check for the running kernel version? That
 would fix the book.
 
 My understanding is that Paul came upon an error while building 6.6 from 6.1. 
 When he reported this error here the overall reply was that he should try a 
 more recent build to start with. Paul objects because the 6.6 book stated 6.1 
 would suffice.
 
 IMO The whole discussion on wether Paul did or did not follow the book to the 
 letter does not matter one bit ... until someone proofs otherwise (i.e. is 
 able to build 6.6 from 6.1) Pauls claim that the book is wrong is correct. 
 
 I think Paul does have a point. I'm not suggesting the book should be tested 
 against every possible running kernel version but if the general consensus is 
 that a 6.3 system is required than the book should state 6.3 until proven 
 otherwise.

Well, that would make sense. I'm not sure it would satisfy him,
however.

Mike
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Re: LFS-6.6, Stage2, glibc, nscd.c:442

2010-06-02 Thread Mike McCarty
linux fan wrote:
 On 6/2/10, Danny Engelbarts d.engelba...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 ...  a 6.3 system is required than the book should state 6.3 until proven
 otherwise.
 
 That is just exactly what the DEV book now requires.
 
 Unfortunately, now we don't get to find out exactly why the original problem
 undefined reference to __stack_chk_guard
 surfaces from time to time.

I don't see why. It simply has to do with whether gcc provides the
stack clobber check. It's not like there isn't any way to find
information on it. I turned these up immediately...

http://wiki.osdev.org/GCC_Stack_Smashing_Protector
https://patchwork.kernel.org/patch/6657/
http://sources.redhat.com/ml/libc-alpha/2005-07/msg00046.html

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Re: LFS-6.6, Stage2, glibc, nscd.c:442

2010-06-02 Thread Mike McCarty
linux fan wrote:
 On 6/2/10, Danny Engelbarts d.engelba...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 ...  a 6.3 system is required than the book should state 6.3 until proven
 otherwise.
 
 That is just exactly what the DEV book now requires.
 
 Unfortunately, now we don't get to find out exactly why the original problem
 undefined reference to __stack_chk_guard
 surfaces from time to time.

This may be a better discussion of the problem, if such it be.

http://www.ecos.sourceware.org/ml/libc-alpha/2006-04/msg9.html

Mike
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