Re: Base without HSQL support?
@Wol, Le 9/06/19 à 14:05, Wols Lists a écrit : On 09/06/19 11:32, Jean-Pierre Ledure wrote: The concept of "embedded" database is - at most - a nice-to-have feature. A Base application embedding in the same single file both the logic and the data is 1. unmaintainable (a. You cannot prepare a new version. b. You cannot use 3rd party database design or database management or database ... migration tools), 2. "undistributable" to other users and 3. definitively limited to serving a single user. In fact, it is a nice toy but it is also nonsense to build real (data)Base applications, the data being embedded. You're forgetting a large class of users ... the home user, who 1. tends to "write and forget", and doesn't know about 3rd-party tools, 2. has no desire to share, and 3. by definition is a single user. I do not want to forget anyone. I want to open doors, to give home and other (?) users new perspectives. A home user using an embedded Hsqldb database has NO BENEFIT in using an embedded Firebird database. (S)he has only a high risk to fail its migration. This is at least the current status. Jean-Pierre ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
On 09/06/19 11:32, Jean-Pierre Ledure wrote: > The concept of "embedded" database is - at most - a nice-to-have feature. > > A Base application embedding in the same single file both the logic and > the data is 1. unmaintainable (a. You cannot prepare a new version. b. > You cannot use 3rd party database design or database management or > database ... migration tools), 2. "undistributable" to other users and > 3. definitively limited to serving a single user. > > In fact, it is a nice toy but it is also nonsense to build real > (data)Base applications, the data being embedded. You're forgetting a large class of users ... the home user, who 1. tends to "write and forget", and doesn't know about 3rd-party tools, 2. has no desire to share, and 3. by definition is a single user. Personally, I agree with you that teaching users is a good idea (except that many have no desire to learn), and would love to migrate people off relational on to something that is simpler and better :-) Cheers, Wol ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
Hi, Le 6/06/19 à 00:00, Drew Jensen a écrit : I think that if the project really wants to be aggressive on ditching HSQL, as with 6.4, then right now and thru to the 6.4 release there should be a TDF emphasize on getting people to make the migration from HSQL odb files. Either to Firebird embedded or an external data base. The concept of "embedded" database is - at most - a nice-to-have feature. A Base application embedding in the same single file both the logic and the data is 1. unmaintainable (a. You cannot prepare a new version. b. You cannot use 3rd party database design or database management or database ... migration tools), 2. "undistributable" to other users and 3. definitively limited to serving a single user. In fact, it is a nice toy but it is also nonsense to build real (data)Base applications, the data being embedded. Many LO Base users have made the choice already for years to extract their embedded HSQLDB databases and run their apps on a newer version (> 2.X). Search on "https://forum.openoffice.org"; words like extract embedded hsqldb, freehsqldb, split databases. You will find there tons of tools and advices. It is as easy as (roughly) unzipping the odb file, storing the database files in one directory, replacing the hsqldb.jar driver with a newer version and adjusting the connection string. IMO the focus should be to teach users how to migrate to external databases. The Firebird embedded model should not be the preference. It will in no way improve the user experience. Thanks. Jean-Pierre Ledure PS: MSAccess has a one-click menu item "Split database" (i.e. between front-end = logic and back-end = data) since its version 97 (yes, 1997 !). ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
On Thu, Jun 6, 2019 at 11:41 AM Caolán McNamara wrote: > On Wed, 2019-06-05 at 18:00 -0400, Drew Jensen wrote: > > > > Should the Migration Assistant be enabled by default yes, but the > > default button on the Dialog box which opens when the connection to > > an HSQL datasource is created stays No. I would recommend an > > enhancement which is to include a URL to a TDF wiki page (with the > > page setup for translation/NL support) which covers Why it should be > > done now, and how to perform a migration both with the Migration > > Assistant and without. > > On this, my patch at https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/73610/ would > add such a link to the migration warning pointing provisionally to the > blank page > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/HowTo/MigrateFromHSQLDB > which someone else would have to fill in. Is that the sort of thing you > imagine here ? > > Howdy, Yes, and that page would be setup for native language support, hopefully drawing folks to translate it. I'll work with the documentation team to do that. Seems like the easiest way to go, to get details to the users as to what the Migration Assistant (MA) will handle, easily updated as the MA code is patched during the 6.3 minor release cycles. Thanks, drew ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
On Wed, 2019-06-05 at 18:00 -0400, Drew Jensen wrote: > Howdy, > > I'm just going to jump into it. > > If the question is; should Base not include the HSQL driver in the > 6.3 release I would say no. Fair enough, I imagine we'll still have hsqldb in 6.3 then. > Should Firebird Embedded SDBC be the default selection for new Base > files, I'm agnostic. Its the default for new base in 6.2 IIUC, so keeping it like that for 6.3 won't make things worse anyway I suppose. > > Should the Migration Assistant be enabled by default yes, but the > default button on the Dialog box which opens when the connection to > an HSQL datasource is created stays No. I would recommend an > enhancement which is to include a URL to a TDF wiki page (with the > page setup for translation/NL support) which covers Why it should be > done now, and how to perform a migration both with the Migration > Assistant and without. On this, my patch at https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/73610/ would add such a link to the migration warning pointing provisionally to the blank page https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/HowTo/MigrateFromHSQLDB which someone else would have to fill in. Is that the sort of thing you imagine here ? ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
Hello, IMHO, considering the number of bugs related to Firebird, I think Firebird should be put back to experimental. Indeed, here is the list of migration part only: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116968 Moreover, this interesting link shows there's some (not trivial) work to do in order to have a reliable conversion process: https://wastack.wordpress.com/2018/07/25/database-migration-in-libreoffice-bug-fixes-and-more/ The minimum would be to stop migration dialog for which we don't even know how to avoid it just after having created an HSQL embedded DB. Of course, I know the goal is to remove Java dependency (it's one of the reason HSQLDB part is quite obsolete and hasn't been updated) but the current situation is quite broken and there are too few Base experts (which know the internal of sdbc(x) and cache mechanisms for example) resources being able to work on it. Knowing that there are lot of parts of Base which must be polished (eg: reports), this lack of Base experts has a big impact. Julien -- Sent from: http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/Dev-f1639786.html ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Base without HSQL support?
Le 06/06/2019 à 00:00, Drew Jensen a écrit : For my 2c : > Right now if the ODB file with HSQL does not have any of the following > data types, decimal, numeric, Image(Blob), Date, Time or TIMESTAMP, the > data transfer will succeed. How many odb files would have one or more of > those IDK but guessing it would be a fair percentage. > In other words, and this may seem harsh, the migration assistant is pretty much useless for the majority of embedded hsqldb ODBs out there in real-world actual daily use. I would also add that every single table bar three (Customers, Suppliers, Categories) we currently propose through the table creation wizard in the Business category, has at least one of those fields, which means that if people have used them in the past to create embedded hsqldb files, they are all pretty much likely to fail on migration in one way or another. I haven't checked the Personal category list of tables, but I imagine it is a similar story. > Here is the real problem though, imo, right now with 6.3 if you try to > import any external source into decimal and numeric fields with Firebird > there is an issue. If you drag drop a table from any Base file type or > from Calc or import a text file as CSV. The Date, time, TIMESTAMP and > Boolean fields in Firebird also have some issues with the those Import > Wizard functions, but less extreme in that the import function is more > restrictive on what is recognized as valid input compared to the Import > Wizard when using the HSQL sdbc. In addition to what Drew outlines above, correct UTF and collation support need to be guaranteed for all those who don't use ASCII English in their DBs. We too often have a habit of forgetting that there are DB users outside of the anglophone sphere, and their migration concerns are just as valid. Alex ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Base without HSQL support?
Howdy, I'm just going to jump into it. If the question is; should Base not include the HSQL driver in the 6.3 release I would say no. Should Firebird Embedded SDBC be the default selection for new Base files, I'm agnostic. But Yes to include it as an option (without needing experimental mode). Here is a 2:40 video of why. https://us.hostiso.cloud/index.php/s/HZLHLzeW4LBa5wi tl/dw; Some simple features still don't work with parts of firebird sdbc. Should the Migration Assistant be enabled by default yes, but the default button on the Dialog box which opens when the connection to an HSQL datasource is created stays No. I would recommend an enhancement which is to include a URL to a TDF wiki page (with the page setup for translation/NL support) which covers Why it should be done now, and how to perform a migration both with the Migration Assistant and without. Right now if the ODB file with HSQL does not have any of the following data types, decimal, numeric, Image(Blob), Date, Time or TIMESTAMP, the data transfer will succeed. How many odb files would have one or more of those IDK but guessing it would be a fair percentage. Here is the real problem though, imo, right now with 6.3 if you try to import any external source into decimal and numeric fields with Firebird there is an issue. If you drag drop a table from any Base file type or from Calc or import a text file as CSV. The Date, time, TIMESTAMP and Boolean fields in Firebird also have some issues with the those Import Wizard functions, but less extreme in that the import function is more restrictive on what is recognized as valid input compared to the Import Wizard when using the HSQL sdbc. More so however there are still prickly issues with Wizards and Designers (query, form, report) still not fully functional, or working properly, with Firebird sdbc. So what I really think should be considered is to focus any developer resources for the 6.3 release first on pushing the firebird sdbc much closer to feature parity with the HSQL regarding how much of the Base UI functions properly with the sdbc, even if that means there is no further work on Migration Assistant before the 6.3 release. I think that if the project really wants to be aggressive on ditching HSQL, as with 6.4, then right now and thru to the 6.4 release there should be a TDF emphasize on getting people to make the migration from HSQL odb files. Either to Firebird embedded or an external data base. This would require work from documentation folks (creating a tutorial, updating a wiki page or online help and marketing folks to generate awareness and urgency. There are advantages to actively pushing people to do this now while there is both HSQL and Firebird in the LibreOffice package. Those advantages however require that the current Import Wizard (drag drop of tables) would work, right now all data types can move via the IW routines from a Firebird sdbc file to a HSQLdb sdbc file BTW, but not back the other way. Anyway, that is my two cents worth of opinion on how it is at the moment. Thanks and best wishes, Drew ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
