Re: Help about Calc Functions
Hi all, Italo Vignoli schrieb: I have tried to figure out the thinking behind the Calc Functions Help, but after a couple of days I have given up because it looks impossible to understand. Basically, the problems are the following: 1. Functions are not listed alphabetically. Does it make sense? Does it make sense to swap them inside the file to create al alphabetical order (which is the usual order for human beings)? The help syntax has an element sort.../sort. A help viewer could be able to interpret this element. I don't know whether it had worked sometime. It seems it had been disabled with https://issues.apache.org/ooo/show_bug.cgi?id=70462 The correct solution for getting functions alphabetic would be to make the Help viewer able to interpret this element. But unfortunately I don't know how to do that. Kind regards Regina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
Hi Andras, On Tuesday, 2012-04-24 12:05:35 +0200, Andras Timar wrote: BTW I can imagine that function names are in the original German alphabetical order, but I haven't checked it. :) I could imagine you might be right ;) Though in practice it looks more like it was sorted in German alphabetical order at some time but then functions were added whereever it seemed they might fit when they were implemented. Eike -- LibreOffice Calc developer. Number formatter stricken i18n transpositionizer. GnuPG key 0x293C05FD : 997A 4C60 CE41 0149 0DB3 9E96 2F1A D073 293C 05FD pgpiGA1uvzxzi.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
Hi Italo, On Mon, 2012-04-23 at 19:13 +0200, Italo Vignoli wrote: No, I do not want to write documentation, I am trying to figure out how to hack the help to improve it, because most users still refer to the help when they do not know how to do something. :-) I have already started cleaning useless comments, and while doing this I stumbled upon the see also... comments on Calc, and from these to the rest of the story. Good stuff. LibreOffice Help is really bad, and should be rebuilt from scratch, but this is really impossible. So, I am working at improving it, starting from the easiest stuff. So - one thing that is prolly worth doing, is adding a few easy hacks; we could add a SkillHelp to: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Easy_Hacks_Bugzilla_Whiteboard_Status And then file some of the worst areas that you see in passing but don't have time to fix as bugs with: EasyHack,DifficultyBeginner,SkillHelp,TopicCleanup in their whiteboard status ? (then again Bjoern is the expert here). You have answered to the alphabetical order, and to the part one, part two stuff. They seem both improvements over the actual situation. Of course, large changes to the help such as re-ordering may hurt translators - but no idea. HTH, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
2012/4/24 Michael Meeks michael.me...@suse.com: Of course, large changes to the help such as re-ordering may hurt translators - but no idea. Re-ordering is not necessarily a problem, but English alphabetical order is. Function names are localizable, and localized names need a different alphabetical order. BTW I can imagine that function names are in the original German alphabetical order, but I haven't checked it. :) Of course we can over-engineer it, each function description can be in an XML snippet, and those can be sorted compile time. Or something better navigation should be invented. Best regards, Andras ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Help about Calc Functions
I have tried to figure out the thinking behind the Calc Functions Help, but after a couple of days I have given up because it looks impossible to understand. Basically, the problems are the following: 1. Functions are not listed alphabetically. Does it make sense? Does it make sense to swap them inside the file to create al alphabetical order (which is the usual order for human beings)? 2. Size of files is wildly different. There are huge files like Math Functions and small files like Financial Functions which are even split in sections (where the contents do not follow any order, while it would be more useful to have - for instance - Financial Functions A-L instead of Financial Functions Part One). Does it make sense to split large files to make them more manageable? Does it make sense to rename sections to make them like these: A-L and M-Z? (Of course, this does not mean that I already know how to split help files or to create new help files... but it might be worth studying it if it makes sense to improve the overall usability of the help, which is now almost useless in several areas). 3. There are comments like see also TANG. Does it make sense to make these comments, which might sometimes be useful, be visible to end users? In my opinion, having this kind of stuff buried into XML and invisible to the end user does not make sense, so either I uncomment it making it visible to end user or I delete it (I feel that the first option is the best one). Sorry for the length. Ciao, Italo -- Italo Vignoli - it...@italovignoli.com mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
Hi Italo, please have a look at http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_Functions_listed_by_category and http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_Functions_listed_alphabetically Those indexes are needed in the help. Italo Vignoli schrieb: I have tried to figure out the thinking behind the Calc Functions Help, but after a couple of days I have given up because it looks impossible to understand. Basically, the problems are the following: 1. Functions are not listed alphabetically. Does it make sense? Does it make sense to swap them inside the file to create al alphabetical order (which is the usual order for human beings)? Both kind of indexes are needed, see the above mentioned Wiki-pages. In the help an alphabetic index of spreadsheet functions is missing. 2. Size of files is wildly different. There are huge files like Math Functions and small files like Financial Functions which are even split in sections (where the contents do not follow any order, while it would be more useful to have - for instance - Financial Functions A-L instead of Financial Functions Part One). Does it make sense to split large files to make them more manageable? Does it make sense to rename sections to make them like these: A-L and M-Z? I find the splitting in Part One, Part Two ... very unhandy, because I always need to look in all parts to find a function, when searching inside the help. Grouping of functions are meaningful, when they are easily confused, for example LOOKUP and MATCH. But in most cases I prefer a one function - one file structure together with an index. But unfortunately that would end up in more then 400 files. So some grouping seems to be necessary. I personally would prefer to have an alphabetic order inside the statistical functions. But a thematic order might be useful too, if the topic is mentioned in the header. Part One, Part Two... are useless. For an example of a thematic structure look at the violet part on bottom of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics. (Of course, this does not mean that I already know how to split help files or to create new help files... but it might be worth studying it if it makes sense to improve the overall usability of the help, which is now almost useless in several areas). I agree. But even a more precise description like those linked in http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_Functions_listed_alphabetically does not help all users. There are examples missing, from which the user can decide, whether that function is useful in his case. The problem is, that such a help with useful examples would be to large to be provided as in-build help. Such help needs to go to the Wiki. Even the pure description might be to complex to be shown in the in-build help. For example see my description in http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Documentation/How_Tos/Calc:_CHISQDIST_function 3. There arecomments like see also TANG. Does it make sense to make these comments, which might sometimes be useful, be visible to end users? In my opinion, having this kind of stuff buried into XML and invisible to the end user does not make sense, so either I uncomment it making it visible to end user or I delete it (I feel that the first option is the best one). Are those comments inserted to help translators to get a consistent translation for cognate functions? Sorry for the length. Ciao, Italo Perhaps more a topic for documentat...@global.libreoffice.org than for libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org Kind regards Regina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
Hi Italo, On 23/04/2012 16:55, Italo Vignoli wrote: I have tried to figure out the thinking behind the Calc Functions Help, but after a couple of days I have given up because it looks impossible to understand. Basically, the problems are the following: 1. Functions are not listed alphabetically. Does it make sense? Does it make sense to swap them inside the file to create al alphabetical order (which is the usual order for human beings)? 2. Size of files is wildly different. There are huge files like Math Functions and small files like Financial Functions which are even split in sections (where the contents do not follow any order, while it would be more useful to have - for instance - Financial Functions A-L instead of Financial Functions Part One). Does it make sense to split large files to make them more manageable? Does it make sense to rename sections to make them like these: A-L and M-Z? (Of course, this does not mean that I already know how to split help files or to create new help files... but it might be worth studying it if it makes sense to improve the overall usability of the help, which is now almost useless in several areas). 3. There arecomments like see also TANG. Does it make sense to make these comments, which might sometimes be useful, be visible to end users? In my opinion, having this kind of stuff buried into XML and invisible to the end user does not make sense, so either I uncomment it making it visible to end user or I delete it (I feel that the first option is the best one). For information, because the Help file was not so helpful, we wrote a wiki page some (long) time ago, this page was referenced in the HC2 file and was maintained more that the HC2 file. I've ported it on LibreOffice, but it's in French however I know you read it and may be it can help you to figure out how it could look better. http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/FR/Calc/Fonctions_listees_par_categories Kind regards Sophie Sorry for the length. Ciao, Italo -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org Tel:+33683901545 Membership Committee Member - Co-founder The Document Foundation ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Help about Calc Functions
Regina Henschel wrote: Perhaps more a topic for documentat...@global.libreoffice.org than for libreoffice@lists.freedesktop.org No, I do not want to write documentation, I am trying to figure out how to hack the help to improve it, because most users still refer to the help when they do not know how to do something. I have already started cleaning useless comments, and while doing this I stumbled upon the see also... comments on Calc, and from these to the rest of the story. LibreOffice Help is really bad, and should be rebuilt from scratch, but this is really impossible. So, I am working at improving it, starting from the easiest stuff. You have answered to the alphabetical order, and to the part one, part two stuff. They seem both improvements over the actual situation. -- Italo Vignoli - it...@italovignoli.com mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP 5316...@messagenet.it skype italovignoli - gtalk italo.vign...@gmail.com ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
