Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Wed, 2013-05-01 at 19:18 -0400, Robinson Tryon wrote: I fully agree with this sentiment -- the dev-list should be taylored to be inviting to a wide audience of volunteer contributors and not only to those hardcore contributors who are full-time sponsored developers. ... So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: Speaking as a non-core dev, I would very much appreciate this change. Guys (not just you Robinson of course, Bjoern and others) - please lets not have this nonsense division between sponsored or not. I know of people who are not paid that contribute an incredible amount of work, and I know of people who are full-time but somehow don't do any significant amount of patch review via. gerrit or elsewhere at all. Lets have the discussion without this false and unhelpfully divisive distinction. I strongly suggest that if we need to weigh anything in this balance then the amount of time they spend, and the amount of reviewing work they do is what counts - not how they feed themselves :-) ATB, Michael. -- michael.me...@suse.com , Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 10:15:41AM +0200, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: Don't u consider sending nothing to report spam in a way? On May 2, 2013 9:42 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org wrote: Le 02/05/2013 07:49, Jonathan Aquilina a écrit : If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? Perhaps: if you do not receive anything, you do not know if there nothing to receive or if there is a problem on the sender side or on the receiver side or if the link between them is broken. Can we stop here, please? D. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hey all, so in my eyes the consensus here is the following: (1) we want to get informed about new stuff to - either react/ review it as a regular developer or - to keep up with a topic as sparetime contributor (2) too many automaticly sent mails blur the view for important messages and discussions I would be happy with a regular outline every 8 hours in the style of: These are the new submissions to gerrit of the last x hours. They have the following headlines: * fix a typo http://linktogerrit/123 * kill OUString::bla http://linktogerrit/124 * some important change http://linktogerrit/125 For more information or to get involved into a discussion please checkout the provided Gerrit links. In addition, the following changes were merged in the last time frame: * tricky bug fix http://linktogerrit/101 * simplify life http://linktogerrit/42 Did you know that you can configure Gerrit to send you individualized email overviews? Checkout http://linktowiki/howto My suggestion. Would reduce number of mails while still giving the option to get updates. A little bit like the ESC protocols... Philipp PS: I personally have a filter putting mails from Gerrit into a subfolder. So I do not get distracted while reading the dev-list. However, this leads to the fact, that I less often check for patch submission that are interesting to me. 2013/5/4 Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com Hi, On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 12:57:46AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: So removing those who are employed to work on LibreOffice -- which I expect to be capable to set up their mail filters with a second list or with a gerrit watch well not so fast with taking away the right to opine - I would rather like us to come to a consensus here, than arbitrarily excluding valid input. After all, the initial proposal came from a paid developer. ;) Oh, I of course welcome every kind of input, but I prefer to keep these two separated as having the dev mailing list manageable is a key factor in gaining more volunteer contributors, while gaining more salaried developers contributing to the project rather depends on other factors. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On 05/01/2013 09:33 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Opinions? My initial reaction to the gerrit web UI is it sucks. Take, e.g., comments made directly in the source code: On a change's overview page, you can see that there /are/ comments to certain files of a patch set, but to actually see those comments, you need to click on the individual files (and if you happen to be logged into gerrit, the file you looked at is automatically marked as reviewed when you hit the browser's back button; scary, even if that is reportedly only a private marker only seen by yourself). This does not make it easy at all to discover and contribute to a discussion. One major rationale for the current dev-list spamming is so that people like me get informed about pending changes, to ensure changes are reviewed in a timely way. Upon reflection, one could argue that people like me should adjust their working habits---instead of continually observing only the ML, we should also continually observe https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:open,n,z. And switch the dev-list spamming off again. But upon yet further reflection, it appears to me that mail does hit a sweet spot there. Like with git commits, where in principle one can stay informed via git fetch/git log. But, at least to me, it appears way more practical to instead do that via the automatically-fed commit ML: My mail reader keeps track of which commits I did not yet look at. I can flag commits as interesting to come back to them later when I have more time (though that typically means: never). I can easily compose a reply mail to comment on a commit, and if I include the general ML in that mail, this can start a useful discussion. In short, it is a format that makes it easy to consume the information and to contribute to it. A counter-example is your average bug-tracker, which is not mail-based, but still can give you the feeling that you are on top of the information (and I think an important part there is that the bug-tracker makes all the information about a single bug immediately visible on a single web page). None of that feels really true with gerrit, at least from my grumpy and skeptical position. Sure, I should try to adjust my habits, become more comfortable with that gerrit web UI (or any sort of CLI). But, to be honest, gerrit in its current form simply does not appear very usable to me. And all the discussion whether and how to replicate information from gerrit (a tool intended to let people discover and contribute) in an ML (so people can actually discover and contribute) is testament to that. Stephan ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Stephan Bergmann sberg...@redhat.com wrote: On 05/01/2013 09:33 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Opinions? if you happen to be logged into gerrit, the file you looked at is automatically marked as reviewed You can turn that off on a 'diff' view, click on 'preferences' then check 'manual review' and save that will prevent diff to be automatically marked as 'reviewed' as you look at them use '?' to get the list of keyboard shortcuts... here 'm' is the shortcut to manually toggle the reviewed flag. Norbert ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 05:13:53PM +0200, Stephan Bergmann wrote: But upon yet further reflection, it appears to me that mail does hit a sweet spot there. Like with git commits, where in principle one can stay informed via git fetch/git log. But, at least to me, it appears way more practical to instead do that via the automatically-fed commit ML: My mail reader keeps track of which commits I did not yet look at. I can flag commits as interesting to come back to them later when I have more time (though that typically means: never). I can easily compose a reply mail to comment on a commit, and if I include the general ML in that mail, this can start a useful discussion. In short, it is a format that makes it easy to consume the information and to contribute to it. A counter-example is your average bug-tracker, which is not mail-based, but still can give you the feeling that you are on top of the information (and I think an important part there is that the bug-tracker makes all the information about a single bug immediately visible on a single web page). I agree that gerrit doesnt give much added value for a full-time employed LibreOffice dev over the mails it churns out, except for that it reliably tracks if a patch is in or not. However, for a casual contributor, its website provides a good way to consume and contribute as much as you want or need (even as the UI could indeed be improved with lots of tweaks) -- and grow with that. So gerrit allows casual contributors to pull information as needed, while its output to a dedicated ML allows staying on top for highly involved contributors (like the commits ML or bugzilla status mails do). While there is much room for improvement, currently no alternative that accomodates both scenarios in a decent way. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Thu, 2 May 2013 18:49:30 +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: so collecting the feedback so far, here is a proposal: - move the gerrit mails to a separate list - since we now have an opt-in channel, we also mail about comments to changes on that list, not only if there is a new proposal - in addition, aim for a daily digest to the dev-list Can we take into account that some people read the dev mailing list via the digest? I'm not sure why discussing patches would be precluded from the dev ML, surely someone just says In relation to gerrit change xxx, I would like to mention etc. etc. Those who watch the gerrit changes will subscribe to the ML for that, and then bring forward discussion to the dev list for patches, etc. Incidentally, I don't really mind either way myself, but I'm really a newbie to the list and to LO code anyway. Chris ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 12:16:51AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: And then people will cross-post, Why? I dont see anyone posting to the gerrit list directly at all. If you want you comment on that do it in a comment on gerrit (send via email or whatever). This is what people are doing right now -- I rarely see someone to reply on a a gerrit mail on the dev-list (and that is a Good Thing as replying on the dev-list keeps the stuff invisible on gerrit). Ok - but then I see even less reason for another list, if it is read-only. Gerrit already lets me get email for any number of events, with filters all. So if additional action is necessary anyway - which subscribing to a 2nd list is - why not suggest to everyone interested to customize his or her own private gerrit firehose? The folks on the dev-list are already missing more than half of the discussion as as Lionel notes the mailing list does not get the comments -- which it where almost ~all the interesting stuff happens. So the firehose we have right now is sprinkling you enough to get wet, but not enough to get clean. Sure. But it seems people appreciate the occasional email poke about new patches - why else was there the suggestion to have a daily digest from the gerrit list? Subscribing a second list is not a lot of effort -- probably a lot less effort than the custom filtering ~everyone is doing right now, while still having to poll gerrit to see the comments (which are the relevant bits). I'm with you that the current situation leaves something to be desired. I just disagree with the proposed solution, which in my mind does not help anyone with deeper interest in LibreOffice hacking - they'd have to subscribe to two lists, get even more email, and need even more filtering to stay afloat. To keep this constructive, my alternative proposal would be: - cut down current gerrit email somewhat, to an acceptable level * it seems there is ~consensus that at least new patches should be notified to the list - educate folks on how to make use of gerrit's Watch / Notification feature - it should be possible to get the equivalent of the proposed new list setup individually, no? - encourage to have larger discussions on the dev list - hackers watching such a discussion on gerrit could simply fwd the notification email to the dev-list. That hopefully prevents the 'oh, decision $foo happened on that other list' argument, and ghettoization into pro-hackers and volunteer hackers lists. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Thorsten I think as well you forgot a useful feature being able to reply to the patch sets through an email as I had previously mentioned. On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 12:16:51AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: And then people will cross-post, Why? I dont see anyone posting to the gerrit list directly at all. If you want you comment on that do it in a comment on gerrit (send via email or whatever). This is what people are doing right now -- I rarely see someone to reply on a a gerrit mail on the dev-list (and that is a Good Thing as replying on the dev-list keeps the stuff invisible on gerrit). Ok - but then I see even less reason for another list, if it is read-only. Gerrit already lets me get email for any number of events, with filters all. So if additional action is necessary anyway - which subscribing to a 2nd list is - why not suggest to everyone interested to customize his or her own private gerrit firehose? The folks on the dev-list are already missing more than half of the discussion as as Lionel notes the mailing list does not get the comments -- which it where almost ~all the interesting stuff happens. So the firehose we have right now is sprinkling you enough to get wet, but not enough to get clean. Sure. But it seems people appreciate the occasional email poke about new patches - why else was there the suggestion to have a daily digest from the gerrit list? Subscribing a second list is not a lot of effort -- probably a lot less effort than the custom filtering ~everyone is doing right now, while still having to poll gerrit to see the comments (which are the relevant bits). I'm with you that the current situation leaves something to be desired. I just disagree with the proposed solution, which in my mind does not help anyone with deeper interest in LibreOffice hacking - they'd have to subscribe to two lists, get even more email, and need even more filtering to stay afloat. To keep this constructive, my alternative proposal would be: - cut down current gerrit email somewhat, to an acceptable level * it seems there is ~consensus that at least new patches should be notified to the list - educate folks on how to make use of gerrit's Watch / Notification feature - it should be possible to get the equivalent of the proposed new list setup individually, no? - encourage to have larger discussions on the dev list - hackers watching such a discussion on gerrit could simply fwd the notification email to the dev-list. That hopefully prevents the 'oh, decision $foo happened on that other list' argument, and ghettoization into pro-hackers and volunteer hackers lists. Cheers, -- Thorsten ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Jonathan Aquilina wrote: Thorsten I think as well you forgot a useful feature being able to reply to the patch sets through an email as I had previously mentioned. No. I think that's a distraction, and in any case not core to the decision. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Fri, May 3, 2013 at 6:40 AM, Thorsten Behrens t...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Ok - but then I see even less reason for another list, if it is read-only. Gerrit already lets me get email for any number of events, with filters all. So if additional action is necessary anyway - which subscribing to a 2nd list is - why not suggest to everyone interested to customize his or her own private gerrit firehose? As an alternative, we could start by providing easy instructions on how to filter mail from gerrit. If I just point all mail from ger...@gerrit.tdf-server-blah to /read/me/later, does that cover it all? Is there a good, consistent naming convention that I can use to filter mail from gerrit into separate categories? Cheers, --R ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi Bjoern, Bjoern Michaelsen píše v St 01. 05. 2013 v 21:33 +0200: So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? Before we go ahead with any actions here, let me explain why I think it is good to have some sort of mails going to the ML, and what I think is broken at the moments. The reason why we should have the mails going to the ML is simple - we want to integrate the patches as quickly as possible, and for many, the mailing list is the primary way of operation - see Lionel's workflow. I use something similar too - I read the ML so that first I kill threads ending with [PUSHED], and then check the not yet merged patches; and when it is something that I know something about, I go to gerrit integrate it. What seems to be broken (to me) though are 2 things: - the mails for the stable branches - no need for announcements there, as people usually know whom to CC to get a review, and it is later to be scanned by the person doing tags before the tagging - the mails when LibreOffice gerrit bot is explicitly in the CC - for those, not only [PATCH] and [PUSHED] go to the ML, but all the discussion etc. So before we do any radical action, what about to fix those 2 above [if we can agree that the above is bug, and not a feature], and then see how much the situation improves? I can imagine 3rd thing to improve later, and that is to mail the initial [PATCH] mail to the ML only if it does not get merged in eg. 1/2 day after submission ;-) - but that would probably need a patch to gerrit, or something. Regards, Kendy ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi Robinson, Robinson Tryon píše v Pá 03. 05. 2013 v 10:31 -0400: As an alternative, we could start by providing easy instructions on how to filter mail from gerrit. If I just point all mail from ger...@gerrit.tdf-server-blah to /read/me/later, does that cover it all? Is there a good, consistent naming convention that I can use to filter mail from gerrit into separate categories? Yes, check the gerrit message headers; I'd suggest to filter on X-Gerrit-MessageType: - any message that contains it can go to your 'gerrit-only' (or whatever you call it) folder. I'd combine it with 'List-Id:' contains 'libreoffice.lists.freedesktop.org', and you are done. Hope that helps, Kendy ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 12:40:42PM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Ok - but then I see even less reason for another list, if it is read-only. Gerrit already lets me get email for any number of events, with filters all. So if additional action is necessary anyway - which subscribing to a 2nd list is - why not suggest to everyone interested to customize his or her own private gerrit firehose? That is mostly true, but having a list has some additional advantages: - Its an archive - Its searchable and discoverable in google - Some people dont wanna learn about gerrit and a mailing list is something that they easily know and understand (there are also people who know gerrit and dont like mailing lists, but there is no issue with that here) Sure. But it seems people appreciate the occasional email poke about new patches - why else was there the suggestion to have a daily digest from the gerrit list? Well, yeah an occasional poke is fine. But having more than 50% of threads on the list to be automatic notification -- that then dont follow up with the content (the discussion), is not helpful. I'm with you that the current situation leaves something to be desired. I just disagree with the proposed solution, which in my mind does not help anyone with deeper interest in LibreOffice hacking - they'd have to subscribe to two lists, get even more email, and need even more filtering to stay afloat. The majority of those not employed to work on LibreOffice seems to have a different opinion though. Also note that you dont _have_ to subscribe the second list: as you said gerrits watch feature should be just fine for most things. - cut down current gerrit email somewhat, to an acceptable level * it seems there is ~consensus that at least new patches should be notified to the list I dont know if that is the consensus here, but I am certain its not my position. ;) The volume of mails is one issue, but the number of started threads is another -- esp. considering how this represents the development of LibreOffice to the outside world -- almost all representations, archives, mail and news readers of the list show a threaded view, and number of started threads is just as important as the total number of mails. - encourage to have larger discussions on the dev list - hackers watching such a discussion on gerrit could simply fwd the notification email to the dev-list. That hopefully prevents the 'oh, decision $foo happened on that other list' argument, and ghettoization into pro-hackers and volunteer hackers lists. Agreed. Having visibility is good. ;) Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 04:58:13PM +0200, Jan Holesovsky wrote: Before we go ahead with any actions here, let me explain why I think it is good to have some sort of mails going to the ML, and what I think is broken at the moments. No worries, Im drowned with work and will not suddenly change everything tommorrow. ;) The reason why we should have the mails going to the ML is simple - we want to integrate the patches as quickly as possible, and for many, the mailing list is the primary way of operation - see Lionel's workflow. I use something similar too - I read the ML so that first I kill threads ending with [PUSHED], and then check the not yet merged patches; and when it is something that I know something about, I go to gerrit integrate it. For those using such a workflow, both a second list of gerrit watches can keep the flow of information. What seems to be broken (to me) though are 2 things: - the mails for the stable branches - no need for announcements there, as people usually know whom to CC to get a review, and it is later to be scanned by the person doing tags before the tagging That should be easy to fix. - the mails when LibreOffice gerrit bot is explicitly in the CC - for those, not only [PATCH] and [PUSHED] go to the ML, but all the discussion etc. Hmmm, that _could_ be a feature though to bring a discussion to the dev-list (see Thorstens mail). Maybe we just need to clarify how to use this. So before we do any radical action, what about to fix those 2 above [if we can agree that the above is bug, and not a feature], and then see how much the situation improves? The first should be a technical fix, the second is a social one and thus harder. But overall both will not help anything at all with the huge number of threads started by automated mails. I can imagine 3rd thing to improve later, and that is to mail the initial [PATCH] mail to the ML only if it does not get merged in eg. 1/2 day after submission ;-) - but that would probably need a patch to gerrit, or something. Well, yeah. And when we wait half a day, we could also collect all the unpushed fixes in _one_ mail and not start one thread for each. We could go fancy and call this mail digest. ;) I dont see the need to track the status of patches via flaky PUSHED PATCH subjects of emails -- at least for patches on gerrit, gerrit has a much better way of keeping track of things as it tracks and watches the repository directly. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi Bjoern, Bjoern Michaelsen píše v Pá 03. 05. 2013 v 18:19 +0200: Well, yeah. And when we wait half a day, we could also collect all the unpushed fixes in _one_ mail and not start one thread for each. We could go fancy and call this mail digest. ;) Digest with N patches in a lump kills the possibility to scan the content quickly, so wouldn't work for anybody, and would be just a waste. I dont see the need to track the status of patches via flaky PUSHED PATCH subjects of emails -- at least for patches on gerrit, gerrit has a much better way of keeping track of things as it tracks and watches the repository directly. Those who merge most of the patches should decide what works for them best I believe. Definitely it is not me, so I actually apologize for promoting my workflow, but it's easy to find out using OLD= ; COUNT=0 ; git log | grep 'Reviewed-by:' | sort | while read NAME ; do if [ $OLD != $NAME ] ; then echo $COUNT $OLD ; OLD=$NAME ; COUNT=0 ; fi ; COUNT=$(($COUNT+1)) ; done | sort -r -n that the 10 most active are Caolán, Fridrich, Thomas, Michael S., Norbert, Miklos, David T., Tor, Andras, Olivier. Also consider the long tail here - how do you want to grow the amount of people who merge patches, when it will be hidden in gerrit only or a different / not default mailing list? All the best, Kendy ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 08:28:47PM +0200, Jan Holesovsky wrote: Digest with N patches in a lump kills the possibility to scan the content quickly, so wouldn't work for anybody, and would be just a waste. Hmm, it certainly would work for me, so I dont assume that to be a general statement. Those who merge most of the patches should decide what works for them best I believe. Not quite -- you just as well have to accomodate for new blood as for the old residents. that the 10 most active are Caolán, Fridrich, Thomas, Michael S., Norbert, Miklos, David T., Tor, Andras, Olivier. So removing those who are employed to work on LibreOffice -- which I expect to be capable to set up their mail filters with a second list or with a gerrit watch -- that leaves Thomas, Norbert and Olivier. Of those, at least Thomas already stated: I would prefer splitting it to a gerrit list where the mails come as usual. Like libreoffice-commits... Also consider the long tail here - how do you want to grow the amount of people who merge patches, when it will be hidden in gerrit only or a different / not default mailing list? Yes, I am absolutely considering them here. And I heard repeated statements from non-corporate contributors that the dev-list is too noisy to subscribe for a casual contributor(*). According to the archive, the dev-list had 2288 messages last month, if you dont see how that is a HUGE barrier to entry and a huge discrete step to dump 75 additional mails per day on your inbox for a casual contributor in the long tail, I challenge you to seriously consider to carefully reevaluate that. We have little problem gaining new contributors, but retaining them is more tricky. Please consider how people not being able/willing to invest in a monolithic 75 mails per day subscription plays into that. Best, Bjoern (*) And that was both before and after we had gerrit (lots of manually generated patches before instead). Note also, that gerrit did not seem to have a huge impact in changing the total message volume on the dev-list: 2288 mails in 2013-04, 1796 mails in 2012-04 which is in line with the general project growth in this timeframe ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: So removing those who are employed to work on LibreOffice -- which I expect to be capable to set up their mail filters with a second list or with a gerrit watch Hi Bjoern, well not so fast with taking away the right to opine - I would rather like us to come to a consensus here, than arbitrarily excluding valid input. After all, the initial proposal came from a paid developer. ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hey Bjoern, you write: That is mostly true, but having a list has some additional advantages: - Its an archive - Its searchable and discoverable in google I would hope this is true also for gerrit? ;) - Some people dont wanna learn about gerrit and a mailing list is something that they easily know and understand As in, they'd be in the set intersection of - have trouble coping with mail volume today - would be willing to get even more mail tomorrow, but in different list - don't want to learn about gerrit That should be precious few people, I'd think? ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Sat, May 04, 2013 at 12:57:46AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: So removing those who are employed to work on LibreOffice -- which I expect to be capable to set up their mail filters with a second list or with a gerrit watch well not so fast with taking away the right to opine - I would rather like us to come to a consensus here, than arbitrarily excluding valid input. After all, the initial proposal came from a paid developer. ;) Oh, I of course welcome every kind of input, but I prefer to keep these two separated as having the dev mailing list manageable is a key factor in gaining more volunteer contributors, while gaining more salaried developers contributing to the project rather depends on other factors. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
I would be happy with a daily digest. Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? would they be sent out every hour every few hours once to twice a day? I had once a day in my mind, but every 8 hours might be better, given the world wide community. Except when there's nothing to report, of course. Winfried ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Le 02/05/2013 07:49, Jonathan Aquilina a écrit : If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? Perhaps: if you do not receive anything, you do not know if there nothing to receive or if there is a problem on the sender side or on the receiver side or if the link between them is broken. JBF On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Tor Lillqvist t...@iki.fi mailto:t...@iki.fi wrote: Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? Every few hours definitely, except on Mondays of odd-numbered weeks when the daily digest should be sent just twice. And if there is nothing to digest, they should say so, Nothing to report. --tml -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:33 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I vote to have a daily digest with just the newly subbmitted patches. I think it is important with some sort of visibility of the patch flow on the dev-list, for general heads-up on what is going on, and more importantly as an instrument to reduce risk of duplication of work. I'm against having a separate mailinglist for this.i wouldn't subscribe to this list, and I guess newcomers will simply miss out on this. In this case pointing to those summaries ought to be enough https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:open,n,z https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:merged,n,z https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/q/status:abandoned,n,z http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/log Maybe these links could be inluded into the daily digest as part of some standard introduction. /Albert ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Don't u consider sending nothing to report spam in a way? On May 2, 2013 9:42 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org wrote: Le 02/05/2013 07:49, Jonathan Aquilina a écrit : If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? Perhaps: if you do not receive anything, you do not know if there nothing to receive or if there is a problem on the sender side or on the receiver side or if the link between them is broken. JBF On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Tor Lillqvist t...@iki.fi mailto:t...@iki.fi wrote: Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? Every few hours definitely, except on Mondays of odd-numbered weeks when the daily digest should be sent just twice. And if there is nothing to digest, they should say so, Nothing to report. --tml -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:33:49PM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: Looking at: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Dev-f1639786.html depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. I fully agree with this sentiment (...) So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? I'm unhappy about the current situation, but in the *other* direction. The most important part of gerrit is the *discussion* on patches, and that's absent from the current mails; having to constantly go to a browser is disruptive; Mail / mailing lists have all kind of tools that I can use to manage what I'm interested in and what not, from e.g. ignore this thread, watch this thread, etc, which gerrit only imperfectly has. Even more basically: when it is a mailing list, my MUA keeps track for me of what I have read and what I have not read yet, which gerrit does not do at all. (Never mind that the tools I have to manage mailing list mails are under my control and choice: I can patch my MUA locally, but I'm dependent on what the centrally installed gerrit offers as services.) So, that's IMO; obviously a ML is a shared resource, so if the others disagree... - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? Yes. I would call it patch-discuss or code-discuss rather than gerrit-patches; gerrit is just *one* technical way to submit / discuss patches, there is AFAIK no reason to separate gerrit patches from sent to Mailing List patches. Actually, separating: 1) discussion on exact code (a concrete patch) on the one hand, and 2) general design discussions, process discussions, hi I'm a new developer mail, etc. into two different mailing lists could make sense. That is generalising a bit your proposal, but to me it makes sense :) - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? If I can undigest it automatically on my side, I don't mind. - could this be mitigated by other means? Probably. Not that this does: - not mean that it is evil to send a patch to the list (although its a bit misguided given how gerrit simplifies and enables things ;) ) It would make more sense to me that a patch manually sent to the list goes to the same list as the gerrit patches. -- Lionel ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On 01.05.2013 21:33, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I would prefer splitting it to a gerrit list where the mails come as usual. Like libreoffice-commits... Thomas ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 10:01:12PM +0200, Mat M wrote: Yes, IMO, the goal is to have an overview of what was commited, IMO, no, it is not. It is about seeing what is proposed to come in *before* it does. To see stuff after the fact we have *another* mailing list, namely http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-commits -- Lionel ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Thu, 02 May 2013 06:58:50 +0200 Jean-Baptiste Faure jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org wrote: Hi, Le 01/05/2013 21:33, Bjoern Michaelsen a écrit : [...] So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: [...] Opinions? Even if I am able to filter gerrit mails, I agree that a separate gerrit-patches mailing list would be better. I also use filtering provided by my email service provider (previously, by my client) and I find this sufficient, so I would just suggest people to proceed this way. If we feel it is better to switch to digest or separate mailing list, I would prefer the latter: I think it should be easier to implement (the guys working on Gerrit already did a great work!) but, most of all, I would still be able to see all of mail organized in a thread per issue way, which is very useful and provide a quick overview of what is going on. Cheers Matteo Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
The dev-ML is to discuss code. code come as patch, and preferably as gerrit patch... so seing the patch that are proposed via gerrit is the core function of the ML, just like before gerrit they where posted to the ML . and yes I agree with Bjoern that the 'pos-facto' email are the less interesting part... but the 'heads-up' part _is_ the interesting part for the dev-ML... If we remove all the [PATCH] from the ML, what is left ? a dev-discuss list ? Norbert PS: if you really do not care about [PATCH] it is really not that hard to set-up filter on your client side ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Norbert Thiebaud wrote: The dev-ML is to discuss code. code come as patch, and preferably as gerrit patch... so seing the patch that are proposed via gerrit is the core function of the ML, just like before gerrit they where posted to the ML . Yup. If we remove all the [PATCH] from the ML, what is left ? a dev-discuss list ? It is already now the case that there is a disconnect between discussing code, or a concrete problem, and the subsequent gerrit patch submission (case in point: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3699, https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3698 and Noel Grandin's conversion operators for UNO thread), I'm very hesitant to widen that gap. Devil's advocate question: with that two-list proposal, where to discuss a given patch? ;) Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On 02.05.2013 17:39, Thorsten Behrens wrote: If we remove all the [PATCH] from the ML, what is left ? a dev-discuss list ? It is already now the case that there is a disconnect between discussing code, or a concrete problem, and the subsequent gerrit patch submission (case in point: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3699, https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3698 and Noel Grandin's conversion operators for UNO thread), I'm very hesitant to widen that gap. Devil's advocate question: with that two-list proposal, where to discuss a given patch? ;) Hm right. Given the current state that gerrit patches are only dumped on the ML a second list seems reasonable. But Norberts and Lionels arguments are right, there is a need for discussion of that patches which is not possible at the moment. Thomas ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
What would be nice i think is being able to respond to the patch set which is on gerrit via email, like you can do with bugzilla no? On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:31 PM, Thomas Arnhold thomas-l...@arnhold.orgwrote: On 02.05.2013 17:39, Thorsten Behrens wrote: If we remove all the [PATCH] from the ML, what is left ? a dev-discuss list ? It is already now the case that there is a disconnect between discussing code, or a concrete problem, and the subsequent gerrit patch submission (case in point: https://gerrit.libreoffice.**org/3699https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3699 , https://gerrit.libreoffice.**org/3698https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/3698and Noel Grandin's conversion operators for UNO thread), I'm very hesitant to widen that gap. Devil's advocate question: with that two-list proposal, where to discuss a given patch? ;) Hm right. Given the current state that gerrit patches are only dumped on the ML a second list seems reasonable. But Norberts and Lionels arguments are right, there is a need for discussion of that patches which is not possible at the moment. Thomas __**_ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.**org LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/**mailman/listinfo/libreofficehttp://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:33:49PM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. so collecting the feedback so far, here is a proposal: - move the gerrit mails to a separate list - since we now have an opt-in channel, we also mail about comments to changes on that list, not only if there is a new proposal - in addition, aim for a daily digest to the dev-list The separate list would then be even more verbose, but gerrit has already very good headers to filter upon. Personally, I dont think it makes sense to have manually generated patches go to the separated list: - they require a different workflow - they might get lost in the gerrit mails, while the wont be missed on the -dev list - most of these will be by firsttime contributors: - good to have these patches very visible and with a quick response - firsttimers will mostly ignore our fancy thoughts on different lists anyway and most likely send to the dev-list, we should welcome them (and not start their experience with you send this to the wrong list) I will try to set up the separate list in the next two week and move stuff there. For the digest, I will use the stuff of: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51159 http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/contrib/dev-tools/tree/scripts/gerrit_daily_digest.py as base and turn it on when moving the other gerrit mails to the separate list. If you want the digest to look different, just improve on that script in the meantime. ;) The situation in the end will be: - a casual observer will see the dev list with a daily digest - a more involved dev can subscribe the gerrit patches mailing list and can then filter it to his hearts delight - since that list is more verbose and also contains the comments, it will be more complete and also solve Lionels change media and context/current mails are just enough to be painful, but not enough to really help issue Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 05:39:56PM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Devil's advocate question: with that two-list proposal, where to discuss a given patch? ;) IMHO wherever the patch was proposed: - If proposed on gerrit, it should be discussed on gerrit - If proposed on the dev-ML, it should be discussed on the dev-ML Part of the trouble is, that right now comments on gerrit dont get pumped to the ML -- only the initial proposed change. So on a separate list we could fix that and also forwards comments (modulo buildbot spam, I guess). In that case the separate list would be a complete read-only representation of activity on gerrit. A possiblity to add a comment to a change via email is possible in theory, if someone wants to invest the time to make that reality, Im not directly opposed to it. Given the annoying experiences with bugzilla mail replies, I would require such a thing to do some testing on the reply and e.g. reject it, if it does fullquotes or somesuch (or mercilessly reformats the message, cutting quotes etc.) Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hello all, Le Thu, 02 May 2013 10:28:57 +0200, Lionel Elie Mamane lio...@mamane.lu a écrit: On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 10:01:12PM +0200, Mat M wrote: Yes, IMO, the goal is to have an overview of what was commited, IMO, no, it is not. It is about seeing what is proposed to come in Well, actually, IMO meant from my side... Sorry for misspelling *before* it does. To see stuff after the fact we have *another* mailing list, namely http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-commits I always forget it. TY for the reminder :) gerrit ML (if done) and lo-commits should be mentioned, maybe in ESC reports and/ or in tags branches announcements. Regards -- Mat M ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 11:49 AM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, May 01, 2013 at 09:33:49PM +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. so collecting the feedback so far, here is a proposal: - move the gerrit mails to a separate list And I re-iterate my earlier question: what is left on the dev ML ? chatter without patches ? - since we now have an opt-in channel, we also mail about comments to changes on that list, not only if there is a new proposal I would suggest to find a way to filter-put auto generated comment, due to gerrit (like 'has been rebased'... and most of the gerrit buildbot generated one... except the final 'result' one) - in addition, aim for a daily digest to the dev-list If one want a daily digest of a list, one can subscribe in that mode to that list.. no need to inflict one on everybody by default. Norbert PS: the idea of being able to post a comment in gerrit via the ML seems interesting. Not sure how to do that best and spam-free... but still that would be a nice improvement to the ML workflow (and make the [PATCH] message generated by gerrit more relevant... and in turn make it compeling to keep them in the regular dev ML ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 02:31:21PM -0500, Norbert Thiebaud wrote: And I re-iterate my earlier question: what is left on the dev ML ? chatter without patches ? Everything but gerrit-patches. I e.g. filter out the gerrit-mails and there stays enough on the list: Manual patches, ESC discussions, 1-feet view code insight (the stuff that later leads to concrete patches). As a side-effect it will make the digest of the dev-list something that is sensible. I would suggest to find a way to filter-put auto generated comment, due to gerrit (like 'has been rebased'... and most of the gerrit buildbot generated one... except the final 'result' one) filter-put? Sorry, I dont understand what you are aiming for here. If one want a daily digest of a list, one can subscribe in that mode to that list.. no need to inflict one on everybody by default. True. But a digest keeps some visibility of the gerrit activity on the dev list without drowning it and I assume we can generate a far better custom digest showing what is going on gerrit than a default mailman digest. PS: the idea of being able to post a comment in gerrit via the ML seems interesting. Not sure how to do that best and spam-free... but still that would be a nice improvement to the ML workflow (and make the [PATCH] message generated by gerrit more relevant... and in turn make it compeling to keep them in the regular dev ML I agree that it is an interesting idea, although I dont know how much people would actually be doing it. I dont see how it is an argument for not having a separate ML for gerrit though -- people who love to work via email will subscribe that list anyway, those how do not prefer to do everything via email will not care about the ability to reply to a gerrit change being tied to a changes-list. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Bjoern Michaelsen wrote: On Thu, May 02, 2013 at 05:39:56PM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: Devil's advocate question: with that two-list proposal, where to discuss a given patch? ;) IMHO wherever the patch was proposed: - If proposed on gerrit, it should be discussed on gerrit - If proposed on the dev-ML, it should be discussed on the dev-ML That means, for everyone not wanting to miss on relevant development, to subscribe to two lists? And then people will cross-post, and subsequent posters will partially forget to Cc the other list - and folks previously only subscribed to the dev-list will either miss half of the discussion, or are forced to subscribe to the firehose. What is the actual advantage then, except causing disruption and pain, and having everyone and her grandma subscribe two lists instead of one? ;) I'm _entirely_ unconvinced this is a good idea. And if in doubt, I'd always prefer *not* creating more silos. Cheers, -- Thorsten signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, On Fri, May 03, 2013 at 12:16:51AM +0200, Thorsten Behrens wrote: That means, for everyone not wanting to miss on relevant development, to subscribe to two lists? It depends. You would need to subscribe to both lists, if you do not want to miss out relevant development _by_ _mail_. You can of course also use gerrit via web interface or whatever. And then people will cross-post, Why? I dont see anyone posting to the gerrit list directly at all. If you want you comment on that do it in a comment on gerrit (send via email or whatever). This is what people are doing right now -- I rarely see someone to reply on a a gerrit mail on the dev-list (and that is a Good Thing as replying on the dev-list keeps the stuff invisible on gerrit). and folks previously only subscribed to the dev-list will either miss half of the discussion, or are forced to subscribe to the firehose. The folks on the dev-list are already missing more than half of the discussion as as Lionel notes the mailing list does not get the comments -- which it where almost ~all the interesting stuff happens. So the firehose we have right now is sprinkling you enough to get wet, but not enough to get clean. What is the actual advantage then, except causing disruption and pain, and having everyone and her grandma subscribe two lists instead of one? ;) Subscribing a second list is not a lot of effort -- probably a lot less effort than the custom filtering ~everyone is doing right now, while still having to poll gerrit to see the comments (which are the relevant bits). Not having to subscribe the firehose right from the start to keep in contact with what is going on however might lower the barrier to entry quite a bit. Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, Looking at: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Dev-f1639786.html depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. I fully agree with this sentiment -- the dev-list should be taylored to be inviting to a wide audience of volunteer contributors and not only to those hardcore contributors who are full-time sponsored developers. I dont think the ESC is the right place to decide this as it is overwhelmingly filled with the second. So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I think the drowning of the list with automated patch mail is really hurting us (as did the patch mails before). Note that this does: - not mean we should weaken the requirements for the list to be clearly about development and related to code only - not mean that it is evil to send a patch to the list (although its a bit misguided given how gerrit simplifies and enables things ;) ) I was forced to do the mail forward thingie to accomodate migration of antiquiated workflows -- I was never very happy with it and really embarrased to defend it when I would have never done it like that myself. Opinions? Best, Bjoern ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hello, Le Wed, 01 May 2013 21:33:49 +0200, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com a écrit: Hi, Looking at: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Dev-f1639786.html depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. I fully agree with this sentiment -- the dev-list should be taylored to be inviting to a wide audience of volunteer contributors and not only to those hardcore contributors who are full-time sponsored developers. I dont think the ESC is the right place to decide this as it is overwhelmingly filled with the second. So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: As a non-sponsored(!) developer (?), I am not opposed to kill the gerrit mail flow. - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? Yes, IMO, the goal is to have an overview of what was commited, so a daily digest of *pushed* patches should be enough. Although this kind of thing will narrow the reviewers list to commiters aked-for-review, which is almost the ESC sponsored developers list. So after small thinking, a daily digest with 2 parts: pushed patches and yet-to-review patches, trying to increase peer reviewing by other devs. I think the drowning of the list with automated patch mail is really hurting us (as did the patch mails before). Note that this does: [SNIP] +1, note included :) I was forced to do the mail forward thingie to accomodate migration of antiquiated workflows -- I was never very happy with it and really embarrased to defend it when I would have never done it like that myself. Opinions? Done Best, Not sur these are the best opnions, but, well, YMMV ;-) Regards Bjoern -- Mat M ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi Björn, Bjoern Michaelsen schrieb: Hi, Looking at: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Dev-f1639786.html depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on there. As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. I fully agree with this sentiment -- the dev-list should be taylored to be inviting to a wide audience of volunteer contributors and not only to those hardcore contributors who are full-time sponsored developers. I dont think the ESC is the right place to decide this as it is overwhelmingly filled with the second. So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I have some areas of interest, where I want to be informed about ongoing development. (And sometimes I'm able to point to problems.) A separate mailing list would be fine me. Kind regards Regina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Bjoern Michaelsen bjoern.michael...@canonical.com wrote: depending on time of day you find 50-90% patch mails on [the dev list] As the writer of mail forward I have been repeatedly asked if we can kill this spam. I fully agree with this sentiment -- the dev-list should be taylored to be inviting to a wide audience of volunteer contributors and not only to those hardcore contributors who are full-time sponsored developers. ... So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: +1 Speaking as a non-core dev, I would very much appreciate this change. I try to keep track of what's happening on the dev list, and mail from gerrit drowns out the rest of the messages. Splitting the mail from gerrit off into a separate list sounds like a reasonable solution. --R ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Hi, Le 01/05/2013 21:33, Bjoern Michaelsen a écrit : [...] So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: [...] Opinions? Even if I am able to filter gerrit mails, I agree that a separate gerrit-patches mailing list would be better. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
+1 to JBF's suggestion usualy when i get these emails I instantly delete them. On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 6:58 AM, Jean-Baptiste Faure jbf.fa...@sud-ouest.org wrote: Hi, Le 01/05/2013 21:33, Bjoern Michaelsen a écrit : [...] So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: [...] Opinions? Even if I am able to filter gerrit mails, I agree that a separate gerrit-patches mailing list would be better. Best regards. JBF -- Seuls des formats ouverts peuvent assurer la pérennité de vos documents. ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
RE: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I would be happy with a daily digest. Winfried ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? would they be sent out every hour every few hours once to twice a day? On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Winfried Donkers w.donk...@dci-electronics.nl wrote: So, is there anyone who is _not_ a sponsored developer opposing to kill the mail spammage? If so: - could this be mitigated by a separate gerrit-patches mailing list? - could this be mitigated by a daily digest of gerrit news? - could this be mitigated by other means? I would be happy with a daily digest. Winfried ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? Every few hours definitely, except on Mondays of odd-numbered weeks when the daily digest should be sent just twice. And if there is nothing to digest, they should say so, Nothing to report. --tml ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:48 AM, Tor Lillqvist t...@iki.fi wrote: Next question to ask though with daily digests how many times a day will they be sent out? Every few hours definitely, except on Mondays of odd-numbered weeks when the daily digest should be sent just twice. And if there is nothing to digest, they should say so, Nothing to report. --tml -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? Ah. Good point, I would never have thought of that! --tml ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
Re: Killing the gerrit to dev-list spam ...
What is the overall concensus here. Daily digests of a given frequency and if there is nothing dont send out anything? On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 7:51 AM, Tor Lillqvist t...@iki.fi wrote: If there is nothing to report is it necessary to send anything out at all? Ah. Good point, I would never have thought of that! --tml -- Jonathan Aquilina ___ LibreOffice mailing list LibreOffice@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice
