[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #13 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Luke from comment #10)

> This alone would solve my use case and the use case described by the bug
> reporter. Making the UI easier to change these 2 classes is fine, but I'm
> opposed to modifying the UI without first addressing this underlying issue.
Looks as a useful idea to me.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #12 from Luke  ---
Created attachment 147252
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=147252=edit
Line Width should be in points here

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #11 from Luke  ---
Created attachment 147251
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=147251=edit
Indent should be in inches/cm - Spacing should be in point

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #10 from Luke  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #9)
> And those individual units would have to be stored anyway. Plus we need an
> option to switch from point to something else, in to cm was only one example.

Agreed, which is why I proposed that we have 2 classes, a general measurement
unit  of in. or cm.(page, margin, ruler dimensions etc.) And a typography class
where point is commonly used(line spacing, font, line width etc.). 

This alone would solve my use case and the use case described by the bug
reporter. Making the UI easier to change these 2 classes is fine, but I'm
opposed to modifying the UI without first addressing this underlying issue.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Luke from comment #8)
> If we used the same, sane defaults as Word and WordPerfect, then users would
> not need to change units often. 

And those individual units would have to be stored anyway. Plus we need an
option to switch from point to something else, in to cm was only one example.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #8 from Luke  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #7)
> Maybe from your POV. But take into consideration that your default is not
> mine, inch vs. cm, points vs. pixel, expert vs. layman. So yes to the
> default but plus easy ways to switch.

I am not talking about switching from cm to in and neither is the bug reporter.
We now have to switch units often because LibreOffice is not using the natural
units for many items. 

> “Natural units for page properties are not usually the same as for line 
> properties.”

Your proposed solution of making it easier to switch default units completely
misses the underlying problem while making more complex UI.  We are using the
wrong units in many places.

If we used the same, sane defaults as Word and WordPerfect, then users would
not need to change units often. This bug report would have never been filed.
Your proposed fix doesn't address this. Instead it leaves the user to still
having to toggle units that shouldn't have to be toggled in the first place. 

>From the Wikipedia article on the unit 'point'. 

"In typography, the point is the smallest unit of measure. It is used for
measuring font size, leading, and other items on a printed page. "

WordPerfect and Word correctly use this natural unit of measure for leading.
LibreOffice does not. This is the problem.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Luke from comment #6)
> It sounds to me like the proposed solution is over
> engineered and over complicated.

Maybe from your POV. But take into consideration that your default is not mine,
inch vs. cm, points vs. pixel, expert vs. layman. So yes to the default but
plus easy ways to switch.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #6 from Luke  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> Removing needUX. The idea is to introduce a numerical stepper control which
> holds the values as well as the corresponding units. 

Not sure that I understand what you are proposing. I am a user who needs this
feature. I have literally toggled the sole "measurement unit" option between
'point' and 'inch' hundreds of times in my life. There is no reason that I
should know this feature by heart. The solution is simple: we need sane
defaults. I just check Word Perfect and MS Word. As expected, both of them
measure line widths and spacing in points. We measure them in our default unit,
inches. This is illogical and wrong.

There very well established industry standards. Fonts and line spacing are
measured in points. This is typography 101. The whole point of units is to
interact with others, and this is an established standard for the field. 

The primary fix should not be to clutter the UI with more options. We just need
sane defaults. If we must allow customizing of units normally measured in
points, then have 2 measurement options. A primary for your ruler and object
lengths. A secondary for more specialized typography uses such as fonts width,
line spacing, and line width. 

But sane defaults would have prevents me from toggling the "measurement unit"
99% of the time. It sounds to me like the proposed solution is over engineered
and over complicated.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||1008

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||109311


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109311
[Bug 109311] [META] Measurement unit bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
  Component|LibreOffice |UI

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Removing needUX. The idea is to introduce a numerical stepper control which
holds the values as well as the corresponding units. On click at the unit a
dropdown allows to change it from px, for instance, to cm.

Fine-tuning is needed in respect to how the configuration is stored (we have
the global setting in Tools > Options but need a way to remember per control),
and also in respect to the precision (10px = 0.008km, bug 44267).

Could be a good project for GSoC.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|unspecified |Inherited From OOo

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

--- Comment #4 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 130628
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=130628=edit
Mockup for unit selection at numerical inputs

(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #3)
> Would suggest we use a units drop down list next to the spinboxes like other
> apps do.

Definitely yes. This would replace Tools > Options > LibO X > General:
Settings, Measurement unit with Millimeter, Centimeter, Inch, Pica, Point for
Writer and Draw plus Meter, Kilometer, Foot, Miles, Char, Line in Draw/Impress.
I'd suggest to add the SI unit and to show the current value converted. The
attachment shows how it could work.

Ideally, we define a default unit per input, depending on the localization, and
allow the user to change it - and store what he or she selects. That means we
have centimeter for page settings when the system language is not EN otherwise
it would be inch. And we have points for the paragraph distances. If Benjamin
changes the unit for 'spacing above' to pica, he will still have points for
spacing below and indentations.

The conversion table can be found at
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/vcl/source/control/field.cxx#1114.
While it contains Char and Line for Draw/Impress those units are not known in
the ODF specs
(http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1419774_253892949)
neither I found any other reference. @Regina, Cor: Any thoughts?
If no one remembers why those units have been implemented I suggest to kick
them out. Likewise mile and kilometer as they clutter the list too much.

We could also consider to switch from the hard coded conversion list to the
more general UCUM (http://unitsofmeasure.org/trac) standard, which would
provide the conversion formula with the (extendable list of) unit.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10
   ||5176

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=44
   ||267

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
Created attachment 127367
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=127367=edit
screenshot from gimp and inkscape

Would suggest we use a units drop down list next to the spinboxes like other
apps do.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Robinson Tryon (qubit) qu...@runcibility.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||qu...@runcibility.com
  Component|Writer  |ux-advise
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #1 from Robinson Tryon (qubit) qu...@runcibility.com ---
Jingle UX, Jingle UX, Jingle all the way...

Another one for y'all!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Beluga todven...@suomi24.fi changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |NEEDINFO
 CC||todven...@suomi24.fi
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

Beluga todven...@suomi24.fi changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 72662] Be able to see different measurement units for line versus page properties (e.g. pt and in)

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=72662

hollan...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

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