[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

--- Comment #35 from Turtle  ---
Created attachment 190096
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190096=edit
Open a .txt from open office calc on a mac os.

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--- Comment #34 from Turtle  ---
Created attachment 190095
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190095=edit
Opening a CSV from open office writer on mac os

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--- Comment #33 from Turtle  ---
Created attachment 190094
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190094=edit
Screen cast opeing a csv from msword on mac

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--- Comment #32 from Turtle  ---
Comment on attachment 190074
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190074
patch for 7.5.6.2

I have now tested the patch on linux and it works as expected.

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--- Comment #31 from Turtle  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #30)
> Created attachment 190080 [details]
> Opening a TXT in Excel
> 
> (In reply to Turtle from comment #27)
> > Also add:
> > 1.5 When in calc if one needs to open a .txt file and refer to it, the text
> > file should be opened with writer. As text/plain is not a spreadsheet 
> > format.
> 
> Same with Excel: opening a TXT from it, opens it in Excel, not in Word. This
> is what my point 2.1 in about; and no matter how hard you try, *many* (most
> - given how many are used to MS Office) users are accustomed to *this*
> (already existing) behavior implemented in LibreOffice currently.

I can't reproduce this behavior.
what would be an example work flow where this would be useful?

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

URL|http://nabble.documentfound |https://lists.freedesktop.o
   |ation.org/rtf-filter-detect |rg/archives/libreoffice/201
   |ion-order-tc4116952.html|4-July/062532.html

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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--- Comment #30 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Created attachment 190080
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190080=edit
Opening a TXT in Excel

(In reply to Turtle from comment #27)
> Also add:
> 1.5 When in calc if one needs to open a .txt file and refer to it, the text
> file should be opened with writer. As text/plain is not a spreadsheet format.

Same with Excel: opening a TXT from it, opens it in Excel, not in Word. This is
what my point 2.1 in about; and no matter how hard you try, *many* (most -
given how many are used to MS Office) users are accustomed to *this* (already
existing) behavior implemented in LibreOffice currently.

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--- Comment #29 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Created attachment 190079
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190079=edit
Screen cast opening a CSV in MS Word 2016

(In reply to Turtle from comment #27)
> (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #25)

Please do not overquote. My post is completely available just above. Only quote
what creates a specific context for the answer; or just mention that you answer
some specific comment as a whole. Thanks.

> While I have
> been exclusively a openoffice then libreoffice user since 2002 (21 years) so
> I can't say I have any experience with Microsoft word, I did just now try to
> reproduce 2.1 by signing up for a free trial version of word and opening a
> CSV file it opens with excel. 

No, it definitely opens in Word. See the attachment.

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--- Comment #28 from Turtle  ---
Created attachment 190074
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=190074=edit
patch for 7.5.6.2

Patch for testing, opens .txt files from calc with writer. Opens CSV and TAB
with calc always.

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--- Comment #27 from Turtle  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #25)
> (In reply to Turtle from comment #24)
> 
> Unfortunately, your post gives nothing new to the discussion already
> happened here. It is a common place that there's a RFC (which is, btw, just
> a memo to summarize some existing and most common elements of the huge
> variety of existing (and pre-existing) CSV flavors). It is known that some
> people open CSVs when already work with text files.
> 
> FTR: the correct code pointer is not comment 1, but comment 4 (so it is
> PlainTextFilterDetect::detect which needs to be changed, it this request is
> implemented).
> 
> Let me summarize the arguments.
> 
> 1. In favor of the change:
> 
> 1.1. CSV is a tabular format, and it is exceptionally rare to want to open
> it in Writer, in which case, there is a mechanism to explicitly choose the
> filter.
> 1.2. Opening it differently depending on the currently active document may
> be seen as unexpected and counter-intuitive- by people who are well-aware
> that LibreOffice is a monolithic application.
> 1.3. Writer is not a text editor anyway; so it not suited to edit plain text
> documents - if so wanted, users would use notepad/gedit for such a task.
> 1.4. The extensions like CSV, TSV, XLS (also often used in CSVs) is usually
> given explicitly to automatize opening in the spreadsheet application.
> 
> 2. In favor of the current behavior:
> 
> 2.1. Exactly contrary to 1.2, for people who are used to the concept that
> each module is "separate" (e.g., coming from MS Office), the behavior that
> when a file is opened using Writer menu, it would be opened in Calc, would
> be counter-intuitive; such people would rather open CSVs not from Writer
> menu, but e.g. from file browser. Current behavior is consistent with, say,
> what Word does. Opening a file depending on its extension is usually not
> done from another application's recent list or file open dialog. Again, file
> browser (or OS-provided recent files list) is used for such a task.
> 2.2. There is an "easy" way to customize behavior using extension provided
> in comment 18. (Only for those who reads this issue here.)
> 2.3. Current behavior allows to use command line's "--writer" together with
> the file name, to tell which module to use, and avoid specifying the exact
> filter name.
> 
> Personally I do not see a compelling reason for the change.

Thanks for the summary, I agree with all points other than 2.1. While I have
been exclusively a openoffice then libreoffice user since 2002 (21 years) so I
can't say I have any experience with Microsoft word, I did just now try to
reproduce 2.1 by signing up for a free trial version of word and opening a CSV
file it opens with excel. 
I would  also change 1.1 to
Opening a CSV into calc from writer would be part of a normal supported work
flow. In the work flow scenario where a user opens writer and is typing a
document such as a letter, it would be logical for a user to refer to a CSV
spreadsheet, such as to copy and paste a few numbers from a downloaded data
file, then close the csv and continue composing in writer. 
It makes no logical sense to open a CSV into writer and use it as a text editor
and should not be a supported work flow, other than with an extension. 
Also add:
1.5 When in calc if one needs to open a .txt file and refer to it, the text
file should be opened with writer. As text/plain is not a spreadsheet format.
Thanks again for your consideration.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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--- Comment #26 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #25)
> FTR: the correct code pointer is not comment 1, but comment 4 (so it is
> PlainTextFilterDetect::detect which needs to be changed, it this request is
> implemented).

Sorry, a thinko while preparing the previous comment. Please ignore this part.

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--- Comment #25 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Turtle from comment #24)

Unfortunately, your post gives nothing new to the discussion already happened
here. It is a common place that there's a RFC (which is, btw, just a memo to
summarize some existing and most common elements of the huge variety of
existing (and pre-existing) CSV flavors). It is known that some people open
CSVs when already work with text files.

FTR: the correct code pointer is not comment 1, but comment 4 (so it is
PlainTextFilterDetect::detect which needs to be changed, it this request is
implemented).

Let me summarize the arguments.

1. In favor of the change:

1.1. CSV is a tabular format, and it is exceptionally rare to want to open it
in Writer, in which case, there is a mechanism to explicitly choose the filter.
1.2. Opening it differently depending on the currently active document may be
seen as unexpected and counter-intuitive- by people who are well-aware that
LibreOffice is a monolithic application.
1.3. Writer is not a text editor anyway; so it not suited to edit plain text
documents - if so wanted, users would use notepad/gedit for such a task.
1.4. The extensions like CSV, TSV, XLS (also often used in CSVs) is usually
given explicitly to automatize opening in the spreadsheet application.

2. In favor of the current behavior:

2.1. Exactly contrary to 1.2, for people who are used to the concept that each
module is "separate" (e.g., coming from MS Office), the behavior that when a
file is opened using Writer menu, it would be opened in Calc, would be
counter-intuitive; such people would rather open CSVs not from Writer menu, but
e.g. from file browser. Current behavior is consistent with, say, what Word
does. Opening a file depending on its extension is usually not done from
another application's recent list or file open dialog. Again, file browser (or
OS-provided recent files list) is used for such a task.
2.2. There is an "easy" way to customize behavior using extension provided in
comment 18. (Only for those who reads this issue here.)
2.3. Current behavior allows to use command line's "--writer" together with the
file name, to tell which module to use, and avoid specifying the exact filter
name.

Personally I do not see a compelling reason for the change.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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Turtle  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 OS|Windows (All)   |All

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Turtle  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|WONTFIX |---

--- Comment #24 from Turtle  ---
CSV is a spreadsheet file format defined in rfc 4180. It is counter productive
to have to modify libreoffice to get the files to open with the correct
application, text files also should be opened with writer by default. 

Opening a .csv with calc will bring liberoffice in line with rfc 4180
See the definition of a CSV format:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc4180#page-2

It is a common work flow use case to be working in a text document then needing
to open a CSV for reference. 
I would say if a user has a need to open CSV files in writer then they should
use an extension for that.

I attached a untested patch in my closed bug report 157601 that restores the
correct behavior. 
Thank you for your consideration

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--- Comment #23 from Mike Kaganski  ---
*** Bug 157601 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=62
   ||824

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||tur...@think-electric.com

--- Comment #22 from Mike Kaganski  ---
*** Bug 157601 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||0378

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

--- Comment #21 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We had a hot discussion during the design meeting. There are arguments for both
options and people are split. The safest way is to keep the current behavior,
so WF.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #19 from Cor Nouws  ---
I think Stuart explains clear why the current behavior is not a bug, designed
and consistent.
One would expect that users working with csv files will understand this fast
enough and do what is needed to open such files in the module they prefer.
Using the extension that Maxim kindly attached, can be done too of course.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

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Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||109238


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=109238
[Bug 109238] [META] CSV bugs and enhancements
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--- Comment #18 from Maxim Monastirsky  ---
Created attachment 130066
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=130066=edit
extension to open csv always in calc

Following my last comment, attached a simple extension that will make csv open
always in Calc.

In addition, I forgot that the current behavior is actually controlled by the
special .uno:OpenFromWriter command. Making csv open always in Calc is only a
matter of customizing the toolbar/menubar and swapping .uno:OpenFromWriter with
a plain .uno:Open.

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|preBibisect, regression |
URL||http://nabble.documentfound
   ||ation.org/rtf-filter-detect
   ||ion-order-tc4116952.html
 CC||dennisfrancis...@gmail.com,
   ||kohei.yosh...@collabora.com
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=65
   ||017

--- Comment #17 from V Stuart Foote  ---
These fall through generic_Text filter behaviors are as designed [1], and
current order of CALC_DOCSERVICE -> WRITER_DOCSERVICE -> file "extension", or
fall through to Writer is intentional [2].  

As in the see also bug 65017 for RTF handling it is a feature introduced at
3.6, removing "regression".

Again, if you want a CSV (of any flavor delimiter (comma, tab, space, etc.) to
open into Calc--do not have a Writer session open with canvas focus! Writer can
be open, but not have focus--and the Text Import dialog for import to Calc will
launch.

**And if you want to open CSV into Writer--open it from a Writer session**

This is the way the generic_Text filter was implemented. Again see no need to
change our handling--no need to change filter order--and there is nothing
incorrect as implemented!

The otherwise valid enhancement of adding missing filter(s) to the Writer
module and Calc module type lists (e.g. bug 89685) is not bound to generic_Text
filter handling of the CSVs.

If UX needs to drive this a different direction (the Writer_DOCSERVICE filter
could be removed)--please just be aware that what we have was intentional and
well reasoned and works. 

=-refs-=

[1] Kohei's initial PlainTextFilterDetect for CSV & TXT by DOC_SERVICE first
and then by extension, subsequently expanded to more formats... 
https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=8b8e24544793f4ec6f61edb7ce8ac10bf6bb0981

[2] Current support for open into Calc for file extensions "csv", "tsv", "tab",
"xls" and ".csv.gz" file extensions when Writer service is not active.
http://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/filter/source/textfilterdetect/filterdetect.cxx?a=true#181

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--- Comment #16 from Maxim Monastirsky  ---
It's worth mentioning that the behavior can be changed via extensions. Just
override the "DetectService" property of the "generic_Text" type with your own
service, and implement it the way you want (with a possible fallback to the
default one for cases you don't want to handle). I tried it, and it seems to
work. So there is no real need for additional config in LO core.

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--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #14)
> I don't agree to a change from current behavior. It is not necessary.  

Looks like I misunderstood:

(Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #9)
> Harald stated in comment 3 that the issue was a regression, so it used to
> work in 3.3.0 and is broken presently. So i would be in favour of returning
> the old behaviour of it always opening in calc and not reply on what module
> is currently open.

(V Stuart Foote from comment #10)
> OK, but the filter for being able to open in Writer will need to be added or
> we actually will end up with issue of bug 89684.

And as you say with

> Placement of configuration setting to modify behavior of the
> WRITER_DOCSERVICE could be either the Options dialog, or as and Expert
> configuration stanza. Or alternatively do what was suggested (comment 6)
> eliminate/override the document service and open CSV by default to Calc, but
> provide specific filter entry to open in Writer.

you accept to open Calc by default but provide specific filter in Writer. As a
side note many confusion comes from the module agnostic approach to open files
with the module that is linked with the extension.

What do you expect from UX now? Where a configuration should be stored? My take
on this is

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #13)
> ... I disagree with Maxim's suggestion in comment 11 to have an option, 
> at least not in the configuration dialog.

Tickets will not go into production unless UX is removed, that's what has been
agreed lately in the ESC.

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval

--- Comment #14 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #13)
> Removing needsUXEval since we have more or less an agreement to load CSV by
> default into Calc regardless of where it is being opened. But I disagree
> with Maxim's suggestion in comment 11 to have an option, at least not in the
> configuration dialog.

I don't agree to a change from current behavior. It is not necessary.  

Placement of configuration setting to modify behavior of the WRITER_DOCSERVICE
could be either the Options dialog, or as and Expert configuration stanza. Or
alternatively do what was suggested (comment 6) eliminate/override the document
service and open CSV by default to Calc, but provide specific filter entry to
open in Writer.

It all depends on what we see as correct default behavior for opening a CSV
when a Writer session is open and has focus. To me, and as currently
implemented we have the correct defaults in place and honoring the document
service.

Deciding a default, and where to place configuration needed to change it,
remains a UX issue.

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |

--- Comment #13 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Removing needsUXEval since we have more or less an agreement to load CSV by
default into Calc regardless of where it is being opened. But I disagree with
Maxim's suggestion in comment 11 to have an option, at least not in the
configuration dialog.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|Writer  |filters and storage

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|filters and storage |Writer

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||preBibisect
 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
Version|4.4.0.3 release |3.6.0.4 release

--- Comment #12 from Xisco Faulí  ---
According to comment 3, it was first reproduced in 3.6.0.4, thus updating
version accordently.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

--- Comment #11 from Maxim Monastirsky  ---
Formats that can be opened by more than one app, such as html rtf and plain
text (which is what a csv file is, as there is no way to "detect" csv files by
content) are opened in the currently active app. That's an intentional change
made in LO, as noted by Kohei at
https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/libreoffice/2014-July/062540.html

To me it is understandable and consistent behavior, as if you open a .csv file
from inside gedit, you don't expect it to open in Calc, because that's a
separate app. So the same should apply to Writer (which isn't exactly a
separate app technically, but it is for the end user). That's a way to open the
file in Writer for someone who need it, instead of telling him to scroll a long
list of formats. And open Calc to be able to open the file from there is just
one click away.

I however do understand why some people prefer that a plain text files with a
.csv extension would always open in Calc. But instead of fighting endlessly on
what the default behavior should be, I suggest to make this configurable, so
hopefully everyone will be happy.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

--- Comment #10 from V Stuart Foote  ---
OK, but the filter for being able to open in Writer will need to be added or we
actually will end up with issue of bug 89684.

Also if doing this, as in bug 89685 for "Spreadsheets", the filter group for
"Text documents" as well as the Writer and Calc filter segments will need
entries.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||regression

--- Comment #9 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #8)
> Believe that's the point of OP, it can't. Internally if the Writer module is
> running the WRITER_DOCSERVICE takes precedence over the file extension in
> selecting the text filter to open the comma separated value .CSV file (a.k.a
> "character" separated value).

Harald stated in comment 3 that the issue was a regression, so it used to work
in 3.3.0 and is broken presently. So i would be in favour of returning the old
behaviour of it always opening in calc and not reply on what module is
currently open.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

--- Comment #8 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #7)
> As .csv files arent displayed when "Text document" is selected, not sure how
> it can be opened in writer in that manner.
> 
> But back to the point, i would have .csv file exclusively open in calc, as
> users who want to edit it otherwise would open it in gedit rather than
> writer.

Believe that's the point of OP, it can't. Internally if the Writer module is
running the WRITER_DOCSERVICE takes precedence over the file extension in
selecting the text filter to open the comma separated value .CSV file (a.k.a
"character" separated value).

With WRITER_DOCSERVICE set (because the call to open comes from a Writer
session) the document is not passed to the Text import filter for opening into
Calc.

Meaning--if you want to open it in Writer, launch Writer and open it
there--regardless of handling for the file extension. Otherwise the file
extension will trigger the text import filter from any other launch scenario.
And why I don't see much need to change anything.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com

--- Comment #7 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
As .csv files arent displayed when "Text document" is selected, not sure how it
can be opened in writer in that manner.

But back to the point, i would have .csv file exclusively open in calc, as
users who want to edit it otherwise would open it in gedit rather than writer.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 89683] delimited text files ('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are opened as text documents if Writer is the active window

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89683

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org
Summary|'csv' Files are Opened as   |delimited text files
   |Text Documents if Writer is |('csv', 'tsv', etc.) are
   |the Active Window   |opened as text documents if
   ||Writer is the active window
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #6 from V Stuart Foote  ---
The textfilterdetect source could be reworked to eliminate WRITER_DOCSERVICE
from the filter process--and adding specific filter type for opening with
Writer on occasion a user really prefers that. 

But not clear there is much demand for adjusting what is presently a consistent
and rational default behavior.

UX-advise, and see if any dev has an interest.

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