[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 148153, which changed state.

Bug 148153 Summary: Frame should respect page margins
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148153

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||148153


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=148153
[Bug 148153] Frame should respect page margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||144654


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=144654
[Bug 144654] Switching LO draw from any visible page margin to None and undoing
the change does not restore the side margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||126009


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=126009
[Bug 126009] Increasing margin size does not reflect new constraints for header
values without closing and reopening the Page Style dialog
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

--- Comment #3 from Regina Henschel  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> Regina, what do you think about Eyal's comment 1?

I agree with Eyal, that the current wording in the UI in page style and in
print dialog is already inconsistent and confusing and it becomes worse with
introducing gutter.
In addition to Eyal's remarks on print processing and writing direction, there
exists the problem of import/export with docx and rtf formats.

It might help to try to write an extensive guide about the features currently
available in LO 7.2 for page layout and printing. That would uncover all the
wording problems and usability shortcomings. But is there someone interested to
investigate and fix all the problems?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   ||tion.org,
   ||rb.hensc...@t-online.de

--- Comment #2 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Regina, what do you think about Eyal's comment 1?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

--- Comment #1 from Eyal Rozenberg  ---
With the introduction of the Gutter option, LO has taken another step into the
complex space of catering to the preparation of printed products.

I believe we are currently having a bit of a fractured discussion on and off of
Bugzilla on this configuration/setting space, and in more than one: 140568 and
140561 at least. So as not to further fracture the discussion, I'm making a
somewhat general comment here. I'll use the terms "LO page" for the pages we
see and edit within LO Writer; "leaf" (a.k.a. "folium") for a sheet of physical
paper onto which matter is printed; and "final page" as what the reader of the
folded and bound physical document thinks of as a page (e.g. a page in a bound
book).

So, we're talking about what we do with multiple pages we print. Relevant
factors/considerations:

* Will the printed leaves be attached to each other somehow, or kept loose?
* Do printed leaves get folded before use (binding or no binding)? And in which
pattern? And do all leaves get folded together, on in bunches? (if you're
wondering why we might fold bunches of pages separately - see this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiCRx1_Ovok)?
* Will the leaves (after any potential folding) be bound at: A corner (e.g.
with a stapler), or along one of the axes? 
* Will content be printed onto both sides of each leaf?
* Do we intend to have multiple LO pages be contained in each final page? (For
no folding and no binding, this reduces to "do we print multiple LO pages onto
each side of a leaf")
* How do we call the two axes of an LO page? A leaf? A final page? What do they
signify? Is it "short" vs "long"? "Left/Right" vs "Top/Bottom"? "Along-line
progression" vs "perpendicular-to-line progression"? "printer head moves
across" vs "printer scrolls along"? This is a particularly sticky point,
because depending on our conceptual choice, the axes may be flipped by one or
more of the following changes:
  * Increasing page "width" beyond page "height"
  * Switching between portrait and landscape (terms which relate to the
printer's axes)
  * Switching document/section direction LTR/RTL
  * Switching page direction LTR/RTL
  * Using a LTR vs RTL language
  * Using a language in which glyphs are "naturally" inserted top-to-bottom,
then RTL or LTR as the case may be
  * Maybe other actions
* For axis-bound final pages - which axis has the binding (considering the
reference conundrum mentioned above)? And which "side" is the bound one?
* If document pages have different roles/placement on final pages (e.g. front
and back side with binding and no folding) - what role does the first document
page have? In what order do consecutive pages cycle through the roles (in the
example 

Now, you might be saying: "What's with all that complex nitpicking? LO Writer
is not a print-publishing/typesetting application, it's just a word processor!
Let's keep this simple!"  - well, the thing is, once you have the features we
already have - we can't quite keep it simple; we have take more things into
consideration to avoid inconsistencies. Otherwise, we will be in a constant
state of buginess - for some of our users, some of the time.

Thus, for example, you can't say "Put the gutter on Left". Left of what? And if
I'm switching from, say, writing English to Arabic - what will the "Left" now
mean? Careful with your answer... remember that RTL language documents start
with a final-page that's to the left of the axis; are you sure you want the
Gutter on the left of that page? And what if I want 4 LO-pages per sheet for a
book fold; where is "Left" now?

Or the request in bug 140561: "Call it Inner gutter, not Left gutter" - If we
print one LO page per leaf, and only print on one side of the leaves, and with
the leaves facing up we bind on the left of the page, then - the gutter can
legitimately be said to be "Left". If we do the same, except that we print on
both sides of each leaf, then the Gutter is sometimes on the left, sometimes on
the right; so we can't just call it a "Left" gutter. And what about "inner",
then? Well, actually, a gutter is _always_ inner - since the gutter is near the
binding, and a book opens around the binding axis. There are _only_ inner
gutters. 

These issues regard not only gutters, but other items on the Page dialog. For
example: "Right" and "Left" margins are not really on the right and on the left
when we have leaf folding. Thus, Microsoft Word changes the margin field labels
when the user chooses "Mirrored Pages" or "Book Fold". 

Having said all that - I'm not suggesting that we necessarily support complex
fold-patterns or otherwise go overboard with features. Just that we keep the
physical process in mind, and also be mindful of every situation that
legitimately comes up when using existing LO features. The UI needs to cater to
all of those consistently.




PS - Some explanations-with-screenshots of parts of MS 

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on|91920   |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91920
[Bug 91920] No support for gutter margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||140575


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140575
[Bug 140575] [META] Gutter margin bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 91920, which changed state.

Bug 91920 Summary: No support for gutter margins
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91920

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|ASSIGNED|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 125232, which changed state.

Bug 125232 Summary: FORMATTING - Cannot change margins of oversized document 
without catastrophic change to formatting
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125232

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||5572

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||125232


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125232
[Bug 125232] FORMATTING - Cannot change margins of oversized document without
catastrophic change to formatting
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||125169


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125169
[Bug 125169] DRAW. Page number doesn't show in margin if page number was
inserted in master view mode
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 124510, which changed state.

Bug 124510 Summary: OPTION DIALOG: Add option to show page margins
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=124510

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||124510


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=124510
[Bug 124510] OPTION DIALOG: Add option to show page margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||90588


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90588
[Bug 90588] PRINTING: Zero margin right doesn't work
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Roman Kuznetsov <79045_79...@mail.ru> changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||91920


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=91920
[Bug 91920] No support for gutter margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||119395


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=119395
[Bug 119395] Default Page Margins - Revisited
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 117855, which changed state.

Bug 117855 Summary: EDITING: Impossible to locate a rotated image to left or 
right page margin
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117855

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||117855


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117855
[Bug 117855] EDITING: Writer Image Location
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 112118, which changed state.

Bug 112118 Summary: When using page-border, size of margins increases every 
time file is saved as DOC(X) (see comment 3)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112118

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|ASSIGNED|RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||112118


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112118
[Bug 112118] When using page-border, size of margins increases every time file
is saved as DOC(X) (see comment 3)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 116247, which changed state.

Bug 116247 Summary: Margin changes when page with borders is saved in DOC(X) 
format
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116247

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Aron Budea  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||116247


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116247
[Bug 116247] Margin changes when page with borders is saved in DOC(X) format
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||112888


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112888
[Bug 112888] Option to set Draw's default page size and margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 87902, which changed state.

Bug 87902 Summary: Default page margins
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87902

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569
Bug 108569 depends on bug 49529, which changed state.

Bug 49529 Summary: UI feature request: Sensible defaults for page margins
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49529

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |DUPLICATE

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||87902


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87902
[Bug 87902] Default page margins
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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||49529


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=49529
[Bug 49529] UI feature request: Sensible defaults for page margins
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 108569] [META] Page margin bugs and enhancements

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108569

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

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