[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   |.freedesktop.org|tion.org

--- Comment #10 from Heiko Tietze  ---
We discussed the topic in the design meeting and recommend to extend the
selection area up to the document margin. But unlike MSO it shouldn't go beyond
the document (not at the grey canvas) to a) distinguish between page and (desk)
background and b) to allow in the future to draw a selection rectangle as known
from Draw.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||112182


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=112182
[Bug 112182] [META] Text and object selection issues
-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||thomas.le...@gmail.com

--- Comment #9 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> I agree with the idea to show a mirrored cursor in the margins and to select
> the line on click and the paragraph on double-click. The IBeam cursor is
> misleading as no editing is possible.
+1

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

--- Comment #8 from Magalaan  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #4)
> (In reply to Magalaan from comment #3)
> > If you do not appreciate me making suggestions, please say so, and I will
> > stop bothering.
> 
> If you find it a bother, then don't. But suggestions of UX improvements are
> welcome and appreciated if presented in context mindful of development
> efforts.
> 
> As I indicated in comment 2, we already provide a functional implementation
> that meets user needs. We are not "obliged" to provide the same UI that MS
> implements for their products.
> 
> The implementation issue is that there is no linkage between the paragraph
> object, table object or frame and the page "margin" on which it sits. 
> Presently, one does not click in the margin--but rather clicks in the border
> of the object (the "arrow" that appears when over the "target") to have some
> effect on the object. Positionally clicking in the page margin would require
> new development to link to the attributes of the target object. 
> 
> It has some merit, but would equally result in complaints of spurious
> selection. I am not convinced it would provide improved UX sufficient to
> justify the dev effort. But I'll defer to fellow UX team members.

I see your point. I guess we should not go there. 
Though it would be nice if we had a little more width to click on to select a
row in a table than 1mm. could it be 5-10mm?

I am only glad you feel not obliged to provide the same UI as MSO, I like the
LO UI better than MSO UI. I think the devil is in the detail and it pays to do
these minor improvements, especially with often reoccurring actions like
selecting.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

--- Comment #7 from Magalaan  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> Created attachment 138017 [details]
> IBeam vs. mirrored cursor in margins
> 
> I agree with the idea to show a mirrored cursor in the margins and to select
> the line on click and the paragraph on double-click. The IBeam cursor is
> misleading as no editing is possible.

Make that select paragraph one click. I only use select line for Headers, but
headers are always a one-line-paragraph, so selecting paragraph would do the
same. 

Maybe an extra idea would be that the number of clicks in the margin is the
number of paragraphs selected. 
1 click > select 1 paragraph
2 click > select 2 paragraph
3 click > select 3 paragraph
etc. 

That would come in very handy and is intuitive and easy to remember

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

--- Comment #6 from Magalaan  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> Created attachment 138017 [details]
> IBeam vs. mirrored cursor in margins
> 
> I agree with the idea to show a mirrored cursor in the margins and to select
> the line on click and the paragraph on double-click. The IBeam cursor is
> misleading as no editing is possible.

Make that select paragraph one click. I only use select line for Headers, but
headers are always a one-line-paragraph, so selecting paragraph would do the
same. 

Maybe an extra idea would be that the number of clicks in the margin is the
number of paragraphs selected. 
1 click > select 1 paragraph
2 click > select 2 paragraph
3 click > select 3 paragraph
etc. 

That would come in very handy and is intuitive and easy to remember

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 138017
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=138017=edit
IBeam vs. mirrored cursor in margins

I agree with the idea to show a mirrored cursor in the margins and to select
the line on click and the paragraph on double-click. The IBeam cursor is
misleading as no editing is possible.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org

--- Comment #4 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Magalaan from comment #3)
> If you do not appreciate me making suggestions, please say so, and I will
> stop bothering.

If you find it a bother, then don't. But suggestions of UX improvements are
welcome and appreciated if presented in context mindful of development efforts.

As I indicated in comment 2, we already provide a functional implementation
that meets user needs. We are not "obliged" to provide the same UI that MS
implements for their products.

The implementation issue is that there is no linkage between the paragraph
object, table object or frame and the page "margin" on which it sits. 
Presently, one does not click in the margin--but rather clicks in the border of
the object (the "arrow" that appears when over the "target") to have some
effect on the object. Positionally clicking in the page margin would require
new development to link to the attributes of the target object. 

It has some merit, but would equally result in complaints of spurious
selection. I am not convinced it would provide improved UX sufficient to
justify the dev effort. But I'll defer to fellow UX team members.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Magalaan  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|WONTFIX |---
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #3 from Magalaan  ---
Excuse me for reopening, but I beg to differ because: 

1 
it makes no sense to have the same meaning for clicking in the margin as in the
text itself. One of the good things MS did is standardizing actions throughout
Windows and MSO. Clicking to left of a row/line generally means to select that
row. It works in Word text, it works in Excel, it works in Access, it works in
tables, and other situations. It is both intuitive and efficient. 

2 
Many people have trouble with double clicks. 3 clicks to select a sentence is
absurd, 4 clicks to select a paragraph is undoable. I fail most of the times,
because the clicks have to be in the exact same pace to succeed. You can not
expect people to train for this. Besides as one click in the margin does not
select anything, they will never even discover that double, triple, quadrupple
clicking in the margin selects even more. (Not that you would want to select
more than a line). 

3 
It is not about being correct, but about what works better. MSO solution is
clearly the superior one. 
When I suggest improvements here, I often met the counter argument that it is
not MSO compatible. It is really funny that you use the same argument the other
way (We do not care about being MSO compatible). So you rather prefer an
inferior solution than the better one that is the industry standard?  

5
I work a lot with both Writer and Word. When you are editing documents a lot,
the most basic operations become the most important for efficiency as you use
them all the time. For instance when I want to format a word I do not select it
by double clicking but click in the word and choose the style. This many times
faster and much less straining as repeated double clicking puts a lot of strain
on you hands (RSI). In the same way it may seem totally futile to you, but for
heavy users like me it really makes a difference if I can select a header with
only one click and format it. Try to format a text of a hundred pages and it
will soon become clear to you what I mean. 

In practice I will very rarely use double click to select a word (only to
delete  or replace it), I never use triple click to select a sentence, and
quadruple click to select paragraphs? I would not even dare go there. I will
select a longer text by dragging like all sane people. 

6
By the way, I found more strange behavior. I use writer for logging activities
starting each entry with a creation date field (that I assigned to a key). But
whenever you double-click in the margin before a line that starts with a field,
it start to edit the field (it executes a double-click on the first word). 

7
As to tables. I was talking about selecting a single cell by clicking in the
top  left corner. That is easy to empty cells. (But I agree  with Dieter this
should be a in different report)


I do not want to make things more difficult, just easier for users. I agree we
should rather want to improve on MSO. Let me make different suggestion, that
may make the code easier as well:

SUGGESTION:
- one click in the margin selects a whole paragraph. 
- double click in margin selects a whole paragraph + empty lines

JUSTIFICATION:
- A header is always one paragraph anyway, so this works for headers as well.
You never really want to select a line as part of a sentence. (Look at this
browser, triple click select a paragraph, not a line). 
- By selecting the following empty lines as well it becomes easy to move or
delete a paragraph. 

Frankly that is all a user needs in practice. I never select lines unless it is
a whole paragraph. I rarely select sentences (and even then by dragging). I do
select paragraphs. And on editing documents I often move paragraphs to change
the logical order. All we need can simply be done with one click. 

The Word Processor is a work horse for many people like me. If you can bring
the number of clicks down, that is a huge thing. One click in stead of two or
three clicks, that is a lot of clicks over a day. It is these details that can
make a lot of difference.  

If you do not appreciate me making suggestions, please say so, and I will stop
bothering.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

--- Comment #2 from V Stuart Foote  ---
No, the LO behavior is correct--mouse clicks will select word, select sentence,
select paragraph and all function as they need, cross platform. 

Those, along with keyboard accelerators for selection (e.g.
) suffice.

While in tables, mouse click selection: at upper left corner for whole table,
or at left margin for the row, functions correctly and consistently--although
yes, the click target could stand to be expanded, but not sure it is possible
with a table object.

Otherwise, we have no need to pursue MS Office features.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 113932] Make Select text by clicking in Margins MSO compliant

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113932

Dieter Praas  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||dgp-m...@gmx.de

--- Comment #1 from Dieter Praas  ---
What I can see in LO is the following:

1 click = moves cursor to beginning of the line
2 click = selects the first word of the line
3 click = selects the sentence, that includes the first word of the line or the
whole paragraph, if there is only one sentence

Version: 5.4.3.2 (x64)
Build-ID: 92a7159f7e4af62137622921e809f8546db437e5
CPU-Threads: 4; Betriebssystem:Windows 6.19; UI-Render: Standard; 
Gebietsschema: de-DE (de_DE); Calc: group

Since it is easy to mark a line, the whole paragraph or all with the keyboard,
I won't support your proposal. But perhaps there are also different opinions.

You made three proposals in your bug report. I think you should open a
different bug report for each issue. Otherwise it could be very difficult to
follow the discussion or to change the status of one of them.

-- 
You are receiving this mail because:
You are the assignee for the bug.___
Libreoffice-bugs mailing list
Libreoffice-bugs@lists.freedesktop.org
https://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-bugs