[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #10 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #8) > I mean: a document without CJK is sent to two CJK-using collaborators; and > their results arrive like that. (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #9) > It's not a mess, because none of them uses CJK. Don't you find that my words above explicitly say otherwise? > And if they start using it - > i.e. the case of two collaborators introducing CJK in parallel - that's no > different then two collaborators writing, say, the same section of a > document in parallel: Their modifications conflict with each other and need > to be harmonized. Don't you find that the same can be said about work *without* a template (when people start creating their own document without any prior preparational work); and the template idea is exactly to *prevent* such a situation ;) -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #9 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #7) > Two different collaborators would create two different formattings - each on > their system with their settings; and then it is a mess. It's not a mess, because none of them uses CJK. And if they start using it - i.e. the case of two collaborators introducing CJK in parallel - that's no different then two collaborators writing, say, the same section of a document in parallel: Their modifications conflict with each other and need to be harmonized. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #8 from Mike Kaganski --- I mean: a document without CJK is sent to two CJK-using collaborators; and their results arrive like that. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #7 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #6) > > Again: the results must be consistent not in your sense, but in absolute > > sense: the author can start something on a system configured for en-US, and > > then participants from all other places should not create a mess because of > > "unspecified behavior". > > They won't create a mess. Whenever some collaborator adds CJK content, they > will need to declare/specify fonts for that language group. While > collaborators don't use CJK either, that remains unnecessary. And - it is > not a problem if a collaborator declares the CJK fonts, and the author sees > the CJK fonts which the collaborator set, e.g. using their system's default, > rather than the original author's system default - because it's the > collaborator who introduced CJK. Two different collaborators would create two different formattings - each on their system with their settings; and then it is a mess. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #6 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #3) > This: "the document author doesn't care which CTL fonts the person opening > the document uses for adding content" is ... shocking ;) It may shock you, but it's true. > The author creates content *and styles*. Content and styles that don't involve CJK, because the author has configured their app to disable CJK support. Which happens when the author's work - including the author's collaboration work - does not involve CJK languages. > The work on a document can happen > collaboratively through sharing, and the end result *indeed* depends on > correct behavior of the program on all systems. The change of a styling > should be always an explicit action. That is only for _defined_ styling. > > > And even when a document is created in such an environment, it must have > > > defaults, so that when it later edited in different environments > > > (including > > > at the same place, using e.g. charmap), the results are consistent. The results will be consistent, since the document doesn't involve any CJK LG content. > Again: the results must be consistent not in your sense, but in absolute > sense: the author can start something on a system configured for en-US, and > then participants from all other places should not create a mess because of > "unspecified behavior". They won't create a mess. Whenever some collaborator adds CJK content, they will need to declare/specify fonts for that language group. While collaborators don't use CJK either, that remains unnecessary. And - it is not a problem if a collaborator declares the CJK fonts, and the author sees the CJK fonts which the collaborator set, e.g. using their system's default, rather than the original author's system default - because it's the collaborator who introduced CJK. > Any change from some *fixed default* must be explicit. We are arguing about whether there should be a fixed default. Even without a fixed default, of course any divergence from the absence of CJK should be explicit w.r.t. styling. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #5 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #2) > > The format must keep all the data (defaults or explicitly > > set) for all aspects of styles, including CTL/Asian pieces. > > Why? And when answering, please consider that we're both supporting 151215, > i.e. per-language default font settings. So should we have 50, or 100, > elements here for all languages? (In reply to Mike Kaganski from bug 151215 comment #3) > Having a per-lang font assignment ... indeed together with a usable UI where > some > defaults would allow one to avoid assigning fonts to each of 5000+ human > languages This implies that that proposal should be implemented to allow the style to map only one (or a few, or maybe even zero) actual language to a font, and have a "Default" entry handling all the rest, which is an *explicit* setting. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #4 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #3) > The work on a document can happen collaboratively through sharing Or sending copies, and then using Compare Document feature. Or without "Compare Document", but using comments and assembling using copy-pasting ... or joining chapters in a Master Document ... Having inconsistent styles would hurt in any such situation. Even if you re-define the end result, people working on intermediate documents could rely on some formatting (or, say, font character repertoire support) details. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #3 from Mike Kaganski --- (In reply to Eyal Rozenberg from comment #2) > > If someone has > > CTL disabled, and opens a file created in a CTL environment, the program > > uses the data from "hidden" CTL properties; it must keep them; it must store > > them. > > Why must it? Why not just use whatever defaults it likes? After all, the > document author doesn't care which CTL fonts the person opening the document > uses for adding content. This: "the document author doesn't care which CTL fonts the person opening the document uses for adding content" is ... shocking ;) The author creates content *and styles*. The work on a document can happen collaboratively through sharing, and the end result *indeed* depends on correct behavior of the program on all systems. The change of a styling should be always an explicit action. > > And even when a document is created in such an environment, it must have > > defaults, so that when it later edited in different environments (including > > at the same place, using e.g. charmap), the results are consistent. > > The results will be consistent, in the sense that everything the author > specified will be maintained. Additions of text in other language groups > _are_ consistent with the original document, regardless of the fonts they > use. Again: the results must be consistent not in your sense, but in absolute sense: the author can start something on a system configured for en-US, and then participants from all other places should not create a mess because of "unspecified behavior". Any change from some *fixed default* must be explicit. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #2 from Eyal Rozenberg --- (In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #1) > "Disabled support" is just a UI thing, and this must never translate to core > functionality. I'm not suggesting the ODF be dysfunctional, just that the app not specify things it doesn't have an opinion about. > The format must keep all the data (defaults or explicitly > set) for all aspects of styles, including CTL/Asian pieces. Why? And when answering, please consider that we're both supporting 151215, i.e. per-language default font settings. So should we have 50, or 100, elements here for all languages? > If someone has > CTL disabled, and opens a file created in a CTL environment, the program > uses the data from "hidden" CTL properties; it must keep them; it must store > them. Why must it? Why not just use whatever defaults it likes? After all, the document author doesn't care which CTL fonts the person opening the document uses for adding content. > And even when a document is created in such an environment, it must have > defaults, so that when it later edited in different environments (including > at the same place, using e.g. charmap), the results are consistent. The results will be consistent, in the sense that everything the author specified will be maintained. Additions of text in other language groups _are_ consistent with the original document, regardless of the fonts they use. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 153043] Writer should not declare CJK (or RTL-CTL) fonts when if CJK (resp. RTL-CTL) support disabled
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=153043 --- Comment #1 from Mike Kaganski --- No! :) "Disabled support" is just a UI thing, and this must never translate to core functionality. The format must keep all the data (defaults or explicitly set) for all aspects of styles, including CTL/Asian pieces. If someone has CTL disabled, and opens a file created in a CTL environment, the program uses the data from "hidden" CTL properties; it must keep them; it must store them. And even when a document is created in such an environment, it must have defaults, so that when it later edited in different environments (including at the same place, using e.g. charmap), the results are consistent. -- You are receiving this mail because: You are the assignee for the bug.
