[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||102946


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102946
[Bug 102946] [META] Styles bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|
  Component|ux-advise   |Writer

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #15 from John Russell  ---
I've just spent the last two hours trying to figure out why my styles aren't
being applied correctly (to a document written elsewhere) so I'd support Joel's
proposal.

This is just a terrible UI decision. Witness the fact that AFAIK LibreOffice is
the only package I've seen to follow this approach. 

And it makes it excessively troublesome to use styles rather than direct
formatting which at least gives you what you expect.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #12 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
I think the description is quite clear - ping me in the channel and I'll walk
you through it

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89
   ||960

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Octavio Alvarez alvar...@alvarezp.ods.org changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG

--- Comment #13 from Octavio Alvarez alvar...@alvarezp.ods.org ---
This is clearly not a bug as stated in previous comments. The paragraph has the
'regular weight' formatting attribute directly applied, and thus, everything
else is working just as designed.

It *is* consistent and users that know how this works will find quickly resort
to using CTRL+M to make sure Direct Formatting is not affecting the application
of styles.

The user abused DF by removing DF by applying more DF. In fact, the user
applied bold in the first place because he didn't know how to use Character
Styles (or he was lazy). That's not a bug of the program.

To override part of the paragraph, the user had three options. Please see the
example that follows:

1. Delete all text after the period in original., including next paragraphs.
Make sure the period is the very last character.

2. Select the last paragraph (Shiffer [...] original.) and hit CTRL+M.

With this the paragraph is DF-clean [*].

3. While still selected, hit Ctrl+B for Bold.

4. Select no different [...] original. and hit Ctrl+B again.

This is how the user got into this situation. Continue with the reproduction of
the behavior:

5. Hit Enter.

6. Apply Heading 3.

7. Type. -- Text is correctly of regular weight.

The user had 3 chances of doing things right.

First and proper one, use Character Styles:

3. Only mark Shifer [...] Books and apply the Strong emphasis character
style. Select the paragraph and hit Ctrl+M; you'll notice the document keeps
the bold because no DF is applied; no place for confusion.

Second one, only override what is needed:

3. Only mark Shifer [...] Books and hit Ctrl+B.

Third one, un-override the formatting instead of reoverriding it:

4. Select no different [...] original. and hit Ctrl+M to remove his DF,
instead of overriding it with more DF.

Because this bug is about consistent application of character properties and
Writer *is* consistently applying character properties, this is clearly not a
bug and thus I'm closing it as such.

The confusion arises from the visual semantics of the second click on the
Bold button. Visually, the bold button is unpressed, the mental mapping
being that the DF is removed and leaving the last part paragraph DF-clean, and
thus, having the application of Header 3 behave as expected. Reality is
different: By re-clicking on the Bold button, another DF is applied to change
Bold weight for Regular weight. This is where the confusion comes from. What if
the style is Header 3 and we clicked on Bold to unpress it to override the
bold for a regular weight?

[*] I abbreviate Direct Formatting as DF.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #14 from Octavio Alvarez alvar...@alvarezp.ods.org ---
This bug is referenced by #89960.

I have made comments there to suggest a change that could potentially prevent
users from falling into the hidden Direct Formatting trap, as described in
this bug.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #11 from Cor Nouws c...@nouenoff.nl ---
Hi,

(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #10)
 So my proposal is simply this. If there is text written already, and then a
 user takes the time to select a style, then the entire style (all
 ...

text written already: what/how?
select a style: what style type? how is he supposed to apply?

Apart from that, breaking the defined hierarchy
  Styles .. Direct formatting
looks pretty useless to me.

But maybe that changes when there is one clear step by step explanation, not a
lot of comments that I halve to filter and combine or not.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

A (Andy) stgohi-lob...@yahoo.de changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||stgohi-lob...@yahoo.de
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=50
   ||639

--- Comment #8 from A (Andy) stgohi-lob...@yahoo.de ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #7)
 I am setting this to NEW and asking for ux-advise. I find this behavior to
 be consistently annoying and if a user wants a style applied, they almost
 definitely want every property of that style applied.
 
 UX - any thoughts here? Feel free to close again but please think of users
 who don't know about this direct formatting stuff (and the shortcut of ctrl
 + m to remove it). On one side we tell users to start using styles
 consistently, but on the other, when you apply a style, you don't see
 consistent results.

I agree with Joel.  In Bug 50639 I also already commented that this
local/direct formatting thing is not intuitive.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #9 from Owen Genat owen.ge...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Joel Madero from comment #7)
 I find this behavior to be consistently annoying and 
 if a user wants a style applied, they almost
 definitely want every property of that style applied.

In any hierarchy of application either A overrides/XORs B or it is the other
way around. If a paragraph style is moved higher up the hierarchy (to
override/XOR directly applied formatting) then directly applied formatting can
no longer override a paragraph style, which is a far more serious problem.

If the idea of a hierarchy seems problematic/unwanted then some sort of
alternative method needs to be proposed (and the ODF/OOXML specs rewritten with
this in mind).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #10 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
So my proposal is simply this. If there is text written already, and then a
user takes the time to select a style, then the entire style (all properties)
are applied, at which point these can be undone by manually changing things. 

For instance if you have a style that has size 20 font, bold and italic, but
you want 20 font, bold, not italic, you apply the style, you get what the style
promises (20, bold, italic) and then you can select the characters and remove
the italics - vs the other way around where by default you get some strange
unknown combination of the style applied, and then most users are left
wondering why the entire style was not applied.

I've been using LibreOffice for years and I had a hard time figuring it out -
as did many people on the user list. Imagine a normal user (not a power user,
not someone who joins mailing lists, chats, bugzilla, etc...) - we might as
well stop pretending like styles is a solution for the average user if that's
the approach we're going to take.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org
  Component|Writer  |ux-advise
 Resolution|NOTABUG |---
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #7 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
I am setting this to NEW and asking for ux-advise. I find this behavior to be
consistently annoying and if a user wants a style applied, they almost
definitely want every property of that style applied.

UX - any thoughts here? Feel free to close again but please think of users who
don't know about this direct formatting stuff (and the shortcut of ctrl + m to
remove it). On one side we tell users to start using styles consistently, but
on the other, when you apply a style, you don't see consistent results.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #6 from Alex Thurgood ipla...@yahoo.co.uk ---
My 2c :

The problem also rears its head when no direct formatting has occurred, i.e.
when using the default paragraph style provided in Writer. As that paragraph
style is applied when the return key is pressed, it is particularly
incomprehensible when one wants to apply Heading 3 or other Heading styles and
finds that the Heading style is not applied. This has been my own experience
when writing reports for work and attempting to use just the three predefined
Heading styles 1, 2 and 3 in Writer.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #4 from Urmas davian...@gmail.com ---
It's not a bug. Bold and italics from the direct formatting should be XORed
with the style, not override it.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |NOTABUG

--- Comment #5 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
While I disagree with the hierarchy, I'm convinced it's not a bug. Closing as
NOTABUG. 

For an end user it's clearly confusing as I got immediate response on the user
list of others who had experienced similar things and been very annoyed etc
. . . etc . . . Generally for an end user when a style is applied they expect
the text to be consistent, no matter what, and then if that text is modified
after text is written, then the modifications obviously come in and override
the styles formatting. To have no text at all (and thus not see any direct
formatting and have this invisible mechanism overwriting style properties (or
superseding I suppose) is quite confusing for the end user - including myself
and I'm not a LibreOffice light user ;) 

That being said - thoughts on making this an enhancement request instead? I'll
leave that decision in others hands as I'm clearly biased on this one :-D

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |minor
   Priority|medium  |high
 CC||jmadero@gmail.com

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #1 from Owen Genat owen.ge...@gmail.com ---
I can see a bug under v4.2.6.3 Build ID:
3fd416d4c6db7d3204c17ce57a1d70f6e531ee21 but I am not sure it is the bug
described in this report.

(In reply to comment #0)
 2. Place cursor at the last line WITH text (ie. at the end of derivative
 vs. original.)
 3. Push enter a couple times

Pressing ENTER once creates a new paragraph with neither bold nor italic.
Pressing ENTER subsequent times causes the prior (empty) paragraph to suddenly
become visibly (according to the pilcrow) set in bold and italic, while the
paragraph under the cursor remains without bold or italic. 

This is likely due to the use of direct formatting (bold and italic on Shiffer
Pub. v. Chronicle Books:), however why there is the indicated delay in
revelation is unclear. It should also be noted that direct formatting overrides
any paragraph style. This appears to be influencing the test of applying the
Heading 3 paragraph style e.g., using Format  Clear direct formatting after
pressing ENTER once will allow application of the Heading 3 paragraph style as
expected. A clearer example may be required in this sense.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #2 from Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com ---
All very interesting stuff. I suppose I disagree with this then:

It should also be noted that direct formatting overrides any paragraph style.

this behavior just seems wrong. If you apply a style AFTER direct formatting
then it should override all properties. Going to the user list - at least 6
people agreed. What's the point of styles if not to be 100% consistent at least
when they are first applied (then of course if you highlight the text and
change things then direct formatting takes over)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

Owen Genat owen.ge...@gmail.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Attachment #106075|text/plain  |application/vnd.oasis.opend
  mime type||ocument.text

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 83726] Applying Styles Does Not Consistently Set Character Properties

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=83726

--- Comment #3 from Owen Genat owen.ge...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to comment #2)
 All very interesting stuff. I suppose I disagree with this then:
 
 It should also be noted that direct formatting overrides any paragraph
 style.
 
 this behavior just seems wrong. 

It is not though. Both ISO/IEC 26300 (ODF, Part 1, §16) and ISO/IEC 29500:2012
(OOXML §17.7.2) define a hierarchy of application.[1] In each case directly
applied formatting will override an application by style and this is how it
should be, otherwise a style cannot be overridden. The Clear direct
formatting function is available for exactly this reason i.e., it is the only
way to clear all direct formatting.

[1] In OOXML there is a diagram that clearly indicates the situation, while
under ODF a directly applied format is recorded as a style definition (in
content.xml rather than styles.xml) and the wording has to be worked through.
In the example attached to this report the problem is even less clear because
direct formatting has been extensively used:

text:p text:style-name=P6
   text:span text:style-name=T39Shiffer Pub. v. Chronicle Books/text:span
   text:span text:style-name=T40: /text:span
   text:span text:style-name=T9no different standard for derivative vs.
original./text:span
/text:p

... thus the paragraph is using a directly applied paragraph formatting style
(P6, rather than Body_20_Text), which has in turn been overridden by three
(T9, T39, and T40) directly applied pieces of character (text) formatting
styles, each recorded as a separate style in content.xml.

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