[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #22 from Heiko Tietze  ---
HIG is now clear on this, see
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/PropertyDialog

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

andreas_k  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||kain...@gmail.com

--- Comment #21 from andreas_k  ---
80% labels are left align
15% labels are top arranged
5% labels are left arranged and right align.

As section headers are top arranged I prefer left arranged and left align. The
question is what should we do with long labels.

Please find a solution and add it to the guidelines.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #18 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #15)
> Is this fair enough to run a survey? Any other arrangement possible?

The mockups should be of a current dialog rather than the sidebar and contain a
variety of controls (text, combobox, checkbox, radio button), so that it is
clear how each element type would be placed. I think the option dialog's memory
tab (attachment 124196) or the paragraph dialogs indent tab could be used as
the basis of the mockup examples.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #17 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #15)

> Is this fair enough to run a survey? Any other arrangement possible?

The examples are not good enough to judge the various situations in
LibreOffice.
I would have no problem with having more options to use in LibreOffice,
depending on the situation.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #16 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Is there a particular gnome 3 application that i can see this implementation of
right label alignment with headers. When looking at the example mockup given on
the visual layout (
https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/figures/visual-alignment-correct.svg ),
it didnt have the header in it, but when looking at its implementation, they
right aligned the header, which does make it look good.

https://www.linux.com/sites/lcom/files/joomla/images/stories/41373/fedora-user.jpg

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 126193
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126193=edit
Options for alignment

Option 1: Labels above controls, both left aligned (suited for two columns,
which we use in dialogs, but visually noisy; no problems with lengthy
localizations)
Option 2: Labels left-aligned to the dialog (works still with two columns; best
suited for reading the captions)
Option 3: Controls left-aligned placed where the longest caption ends (cleanest
UI, issues with two columns possible that may be solved by introducing scroll
areas)

Is this fair enough to run a survey? Any other arrangement possible?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #14 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #11)
> In other words --align right-- as is now being done appropriately more often.

Nope, the alternative is to place the caption above the control. The drawback
of very left and very right alignment is the distance between label and
control, which makes it hard to associate both. Right aligned captions moved as
best as possible to the left is the opposite. However reading through the list
of caption would be easier when the labels are left aligned (and the controls
right of these as best to the left). 

Did a survey for KDE some time ago that shows the preference for label attached
to control. As Jay says, we can run a similar survey once again. Would be
interesting to see if there are differences between OS users.

http://user-prompt.com/de/kde-hig-survey-about-how-to-align-controls-over-multiple-groups/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #13 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Created attachment 126189
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=126189=edit
sidebar

If the right alignment worked well, i would be all for it, but there is alot of
instances where it doesnt work and you get right alignment in one place and
left alignment in other places. The sidebar will likely be highly affected by
this issue.

Not sure how well gnome is implementing its own guidelines as we see instances
throughout its UI where it doesnt right align labels.

https://blogs.gnome.org/mclasen/files/2013/01/settings-privacy-lock.png

https://www.suse.com/documentation/sles-12/singlehtml/book_gnomeuser/images/sound_devices.png
(possibly not a gnome 3 app)

http://img.netupd8.com/gnome3.8-notification-settings_2.png

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #11)
Oops sorry, misread that. Microsoft seems to prefer left alignment, just not
with varying length when the label and the attribute are on the same line. With
multi-coulmn or varying length labels they prefer a label above and aligned
with the element below.

> From the Microsoft ref:
> 
> - Don't place labels to the left when there is a lot of variance in the
> length of the labels.
> 
> In other words --align right-- as is now being done appropriately more often.
> 

None the less, really have no issue with Adolfo's layout choices of
predominantly right alignment of labels to attributes on the same line.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #11 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #10)
> 
> Windows - https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/jj839734.aspx
> Mac -
> https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/
> Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/WindowDialogs.html

>From the Microsoft ref:

- Don't place labels to the left when there is a lot of variance in the length
of the labels.

In other words --align right-- as is now being done appropriately more often.

OS X HIG does not address, but shows multiple dialogs with labeling alligned
right, reducing the empty space.

I find the reduced space more appealing than the left alignment, and have no
issue with Adolfo's actions as in comment 2

Each dialog should get reviewed for layout (some widgets benefit from vertical
alignment of indentation) but I don't see the move toward right aligned labels
as problematic.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 Resolution|INVALID |---

--- Comment #10 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
@Adolfo: I disagree and heiko has on his to do list to do a survey to check
with users on what they think. We are currently building our own HIG and dont
necessarily have to follow the gnome 3 or kde HIGs.

Windows - https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/apps/jj839734.aspx
Mac -
https://developer.apple.com/library/mac/documentation/UserExperience/Conceptual/OSXHIGuidelines/WindowDialogs.html

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

Adolfo Jayme  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |INVALID

--- Comment #9 from Adolfo Jayme  ---
Closing since this change is desirable and consistent with recommendations of
several HIGs. While we don’t have means to change this based on the platform, I
don’t consider this to be a problem — it certainly doesn’t look awkward in
Windows, and both macOS and Linux go this way.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #8 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Adolfo Jayme Barrientos committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=1d4018f15bed477a0a2a5f21a58e4ebcab69659a

tdf#99104 Checkbox in User Data page isn’t aligned to anything in the section

It will be available in 5.2.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:5.2.0

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #7 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #6)

> If you think that user input is important to this decision, then please do,
> though i would assume that this could be settled with the ux team.

For me that makes sense.
I find the new alignment OK.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #6 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #4)
> Jay, the attached screenshot doesn’t have a problem.

To me it does have a problem as we have the headings aligned and the input
fields aligned, but dont have the heading child controls aligned.

> It would be one if the
> checkbox and the other controls were *in the same section*, and in that case
> the checkbox could be considered to be misaligned.

You can see that in attachment 124109.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> We could run another poll, adding also the question how to deal with
> controls that put the label right of the input control, such as checkboxes.

If you think that user input is important to this decision, then please do,
though i would assume that this could be settled with the ux team.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #5 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Yousuf (Jay) Philips from comment #3)
> I didnt see in any of the 4 options what we are currently following,
> so not sure how this is a relevant decision for us to follow based on the
> votes.
We could run another poll, adding also the question how to deal with controls
that put the label right of the input control, such as checkboxes.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #4 from Adolfo Jayme  ---
Jay, the attached screenshot doesn’t have a problem. It would be one if the
checkbox and the other controls were *in the same section*, and in that case
the checkbox could be considered to be misaligned.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #3 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
Created attachment 124196
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=124196=edit
label alignment with headings and checkboxes

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> The decision is based on a survey
> (http://user-prompt.com/kde-hig-survey-about-how-to-align-controls-over-
> multiple-groups/) where 2/3 voted for this type of alignment.

@Heiko: I didnt see in any of the 4 options what we are currently following, so
not sure how this is a relevant decision for us to follow based on the votes.

(In reply to Adolfo Jayme from comment #2)
> I am going with the new alignment because it brings controls and labels
> closer. Awkward gaps have been the norm in the .src-based dialogs. This
> change is coherent with the recommendations of the following HIGs:
> 
> https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/visual-layout.html.en
> https://elementary.io/en/docs/human-interface-guidelines#spacing

@Adolfo: As we are current building our own HIG, we should discuss changes like
this, as we are not current following those HIGs for other aspects of the UI.

I see these right aligned labels cause problems with the alignment of bold
heading labels as well as checkboxes, as can be seen in the screenshot.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #2 from Adolfo Jayme  ---
I am going with the new alignment because it brings controls and labels closer.
Awkward gaps have been the norm in the .src-based dialogs. This change is
coherent with the recommendations of the following HIGs:

https://developer.gnome.org/hig/stable/visual-layout.html.en
https://elementary.io/en/docs/human-interface-guidelines#spacing

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The KDE HIG (it is still relevant at the current version 5) wasn't written
without discussion
(https://mail.kde.org/pipermail/kde-guidelines/2014-January/000626.html). The
decision is based on a survey
(http://user-prompt.com/kde-hig-survey-about-how-to-align-controls-over-multiple-groups/)
where 2/3 voted for this type of alignment. However, the drawback is clearly
when labels differ in size, but in this case it works also not well with
left-aligned captions. Another objection was based on the consideration that
users read the labels - and that is preferrably done from left (given LTR
orientation). Unfortunately this option wasn't included in the short poll.

We should also take into consideration that alignment might depend on the OS.
So familiarity would be likely violated in some cases.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99104] Left or right aligned labels

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99104

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl,
   ||momonas...@gmail.com
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

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