[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #20 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Vertical Gnome-like tabs were requested on bug 113418.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from bug 113418 comment #12)
> We discussed this in the design meeting:
> 
>+ dialogs with vertical "tabs" wouldn't be according the OS/DE anymore
>  but make the application likely more appealing than (stacked) tabs
>+ sidebar with large image and text might be a good solution for option
>  dialogs but not in case of properties; good icons are very challenging
>  and doubt it's helpful (Sascha)
>+ would appreciate the sidebar with icon solution instead of tabs (Rizal)
>+ never liked the tabs, go with sidebar (John)
>+ ideally we have a solution that can be reverted if not accepted (Heiko)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||frank.bruett...@gmail.com

--- Comment #19 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 113418 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #17 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  ---
And gtk3 also has multiline tabs in current master?!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #16 from Tomaz Vajngerl  ---
gtk3 is not our only backend

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #14)
> I can't see how recent changes have improved anything there.

gtk3 has no multiline tabs anymore, see also bug 121752.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |---

--- Comment #14 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #13)
> Samuel, with the latest changes by Caolan can we close this issue as
> solved/wfm? Since we aim to be as close to the system as possible, the
> alternative concepts with accordions or icon views are also a wontfix. In a
> nutshell, feel free to reopen.

The issues I described in comment 0 are still there. I can't see how recent
changes have improved anything there.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #13 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Samuel, with the latest changes by Caolan can we close this issue as
solved/wfm? Since we aim to be as close to the system as possible, the
alternative concepts with accordions or icon views are also a wontfix. In a
nutshell, feel free to reopen.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #11)
> Having no tabs at all...

The pattern is called accordion and would change the native integration (see
also bug 120371 c15). Not an easy decision.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #11 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Having no tabs at all, and have every area collapsing/expanding (like "Other
options" section in Find & Replace dialog) would IMO be much better option.
Such layouts are used e.g. in apps like 3ds max, AutoCAD (MS Office has a
single non-collapsing long sheet, and that is much worse). Having a dialog with
all such sections initially collapsed would create something like ToC right in
the middle of the main dialog area; clicking the expand button would
automatically bring the area to the center of the dialog; and the scrollbar
would only be needed when several of the areas are expanded (and then it would
be handy IMO, not a "usability disaster").

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||0371

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |enhancement

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||3418

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks|43808, 102019   |113108


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43808
[Bug 43808] [META] Right-To-Left (aka Complex Text Layout) language issues
(RTL/CTL)
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102019
[Bug 102019] [META] Dialog bugs and enhancements
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=113108
[Bug 113108] [META] Dialog UI/UX bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Lior Kaplan  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||43808


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=43808
[Bug 43808] [META] Right-To-Left (aka Complex Text Layout) language issues
(RTL/CTL)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #10 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #9)
> Most people are used to read LTR or RTL, not top to bottom or reverse.

The contents of the tabs are ordered top to bottom in columns.

> Also there is much more horizontal than vertical space.

That all depends on how the controls are organized. Many tabs have extra wide
controls for no reason (e.g. Character dialog's hyperlink and highlighting
tabs, nearly every tabs in the Paragraph dialog)

> Using a scrollbar would be a usability disaster. A vertical layout should only
> be an option for very few (~handful) points.

Cant say i agree with you, as when you have content that is larger than the
available space, scrollbars are common and useful (e.g. browser, file manager).
Alternatively you would have to have more vertical tabs, but you wouldnt be for
scrolling within the vertical tabs.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||102019

--- Comment #9 from Thomas Lendo  ---
I find the current layout much more clear and faster readable than any vertical
layout. Most people are used to read LTR or RTL, not top to bottom or reverse.
Also there is much more horizontal than vertical space. Using a scrollbar would
be a usability disaster. A vertical layout should only be an option for very
few (~handful) points.

Disabling multiline tabs and showing arrows to scroll reduces the usability too
because you can't have all options at a look, what's important especially for
Benjamin to find the right tab/option.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102019
[Bug 102019] [META] Dialog bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Yousuf (Jay) Philips  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsUXEval
 CC||philip...@hotmail.com
  Component|ux-advise   |UI

--- Comment #8 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips  ---
When there is a limited number of tabs and the dialog contains functionality
that is seen by basic users (benjamin), the icon-based vertical tabs which is
found in the hyperlink dialog is nice. We are hoping to implement this in a
simplified options dialog (bug 90989).

When there are many tabs and the dialog is primarily focused on more
experienced users (eve), the non-icon vertical tabs found in the options dialog
is nice. MS Office does a similar type of vertical tabs dialog with sufficient
white spacing between each entry -
https://support.content.office.net/en-us/media/5053c209-22b4-4336-a8ec-fd03d4547678.jpg

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #7 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #5)
> Sure, I am talking about dialogs with more than one row of tabs, I wouldn't
> change the others.

Would look odd to me, to have two types..

> > I would love to see some experimenting with that.
> 
> Maybe we can do this as a first step and then iterate? Or do we want to ban
> multiline tabs at all, then I won't waste time on this.

I would love to have a look with a not so much used dialogue maybe in a daily.
Heiko, what do you think?

Honestly I see no solution, bringing more improvements that drawbacks ;) , in
the first option.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #6 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Stacking text/tabs to avoid whitespace and having different UI concepts that
would be two epic design failures.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #5 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #4)
> We must realize that also dialogs with as little as two tabs exist. Then the
> labels in a vertical row is a waste of space..

Sure, I am talking about dialogs with more than one row of tabs, I wouldn't
change the others.


> I would love to see some experimenting with that.

Maybe we can do this as a first step and then iterate? Or do we want to ban
multiline tabs at all, then I won't waste time on this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #4 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #3)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> > The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and
> > modern with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism
> > saying we cannot change all dialogs.
> 
> In this case we have *17* tabs. That would mean a lot of scrolling with your
> mockup. I'm sure power users would complain very soon. If anything, I would
> keep the small tab size and add icons left to the text, like:
> 
> [icon] label
> [icon] label
> ...

Looks as a reasonable idea.
Wrt power users: one might expect a decent key stroke to move to the
next/previous page/tab. Maybe the same as currently.

We must realize that also dialogs with as little as two tabs exist. Then the
labels in a vertical row is a waste of space..

(In reply to Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB) from comment #0)
> I have two ideas how to improve the situation:
> 1. Leave the tabs as they are (multiline), but don't switch rows when
> selecting a tab from the top.

I would love to see some experimenting with that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #3 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #2)
> The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and
> modern with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism
> saying we cannot change all dialogs.

In this case we have *17* tabs. That would mean a lot of scrolling with your
mockup. I'm sure power users would complain very soon. If anything, I would
keep the small tab size and add icons left to the text, like:

[icon] label
[icon] label
...

> 
> http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07251.html
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/PropertyDialog 
> 
> An alternative is to just disable multiline tabs. In that case, arrows allow
> to navigate to the undisplayed tabs.

This is ok as long as there is one or two tabs that cannot be shown by default,
but I wouldn't do it if half of the tabs need scrolling, this would also
seriously slow down power users.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #2 from Heiko Tietze  ---
The proposal was to introduce icon views instead of tabs. Looks tidy and modern
with icons and enough white space. But I remember harsh criticism saying we
cannot change all dialogs.

http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07251.html
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/PropertyDialog 

An alternative is to just disable multiline tabs. In that case, arrows allow to
navigate to the undisplayed tabs.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

--- Comment #1 from Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  ---
Created attachment 124670
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=124670=edit
Mockup: Vertical tabs for paragraph style dialog

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 99528] Better handling for multiline tabs

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99528

Samuel Mehrbrodt (CIB)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||samuel.mehrbr...@cib.de
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

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