[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on|104846  |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104846
[Bug 104846] The bottom edge of glyph are clipped (using Linux Libertine G)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||104846


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104846
[Bug 104846] The bottom edge of glyph are clipped (using Linux Libertine G)
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX

--- Comment #23 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Going to close this. Things with OpenGL are on track.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #22 from Volga  ---
(In reply to Michael Meeks from comment #18)
> > Checked with Andrew West, BableStone and he passed on that he is just using 
> > the 
> > values from Windows LOGFONT lfQuality, nothing exotic and nothing cross 
> > platform.
> 
> The 'nothing cross-platform' is rather a problem; we need to move to a high
> quality, accelerated rendering API on every platform that provides
> -identical- text sizing, shaping and rendering. Ideally with sub-pixel
> positioning of course - but doing accelerated cleartype rendering is quite a
> tough problem, not least because whether cleartype works or not is based on
> what is behind the text, and how close adjacent strokes are: so it can't be
> pre-rendered, and glyph stamped ourselves.
> 
> ie. IMHO cleartype is a disaster waiting to happen for the goal of a
> cross-platform acceleration - at least, until we have a high quality GPU
> based glyph rendering - which (no doubt) is coming. This seems to be the
> conclusion of Microsoft too - they don't use ClearType in Office 2016. To
> some degree it is also orthogonal to the rendering technology - DirectWrite
> is excellent not because it (sometimes) puts colors around glyps ;-) but
> because you can actually ask it how wide a glyph is and it doesn't
> systematically lie through its teeth in ways that are extraordinarily hard
> to unwind.

I also remembered MS Office 2013 has different text rendering effect than
system, especially for document and playing slideshow.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #21 from Volga  ---
(In reply to Michael Meeks from comment #18)
> ie. IMHO cleartype is a disaster waiting to happen for the goal of a
> cross-platform acceleration - at least, until we have a high quality GPU
> based glyph rendering - which (no doubt) is coming. This seems to be the
> conclusion of Microsoft too - they don't use ClearType in Office 2016. 

I also heard Chinese netizens trend to use MacType (which uses FreeType as
beckend) to replace ClearType for screen rendering.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #20 from Khaled Hosny  ---
(In reply to Michael Meeks from comment #14)
> I like the idea of Skia integration personally, but as you say it needs
> work. I'd like to kill this guy though:
> 
> > The other issue is that, unlike text layout, people are very sensitive
> > to font rendering and people on Windows will most likely scream very loudly
> > if LibreOffice started rendering text differently than the system
> 
> FWIW - we already did; we've done this for all releases with GL as default -
> which has not been using ClearType - and no screaming ;-) Also - Microsoft
> Office itself does not use the platform font rendering (except for (just
> parts) of its toolbar) - the body / document text is rendering grey-scale
> with no hinting - I -assume- to improve cross-platform document rendering ;-)

Interesting, didn’t realize that. Sure if we can pull such a change without
major pushback, it would widen our options.

Lets see if we can get things moving in the short term with DirectWrite in the
meantime.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #19 from Volga  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #17)
> I'd assume we would be passing default CLEARTYPE_NATURAL_QUALITY to allow
> HarfBuzz layout to do what it needs to for positioning glyphs. 

I also assume passing ANTIALIASED_QUALITY would get better effect for playing
slideshow.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #18 from Michael Meeks  ---
> Checked with Andrew West, BableStone and he passed on that he is just using 
> the 
> values from Windows LOGFONT lfQuality, nothing exotic and nothing cross 
> platform.

The 'nothing cross-platform' is rather a problem; we need to move to a high
quality, accelerated rendering API on every platform that provides -identical-
text sizing, shaping and rendering. Ideally with sub-pixel positioning of
course - but doing accelerated cleartype rendering is quite a tough problem,
not least because whether cleartype works or not is based on what is behind the
text, and how close adjacent strokes are: so it can't be pre-rendered, and
glyph stamped ourselves.

ie. IMHO cleartype is a disaster waiting to happen for the goal of a
cross-platform acceleration - at least, until we have a high quality GPU based
glyph rendering - which (no doubt) is coming. This seems to be the conclusion
of Microsoft too - they don't use ClearType in Office 2016. To some degree it
is also orthogonal to the rendering technology - DirectWrite is excellent not
because it (sometimes) puts colors around glyps ;-) but because you can
actually ask it how wide a glyph is and it doesn't systematically lie through
its teeth in ways that are extraordinarily hard to unwind.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #17 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Volga from comment #16)
> BabelPad have this option on Fonts > Quality, which can switch font
> rendering enging, this is interesting.

Checked with Andrew West, BableStone and he passed on that he is just using the
values from Windows LOGFONT lfQuality, nothing exotic and nothing cross
platform.

And so offers nothing more than would resolving the completeness of our
DirectWrite D2Dwrite implementation for GDI+ and OpenGL rendering.

I'd assume we would be passing default CLEARTYPE_NATURAL_QUALITY to allow
HarfBuzz layout to do what it needs to for positioning glyphs. 

=-refs-=
LOGFONT sturcts
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd145037(v=vs.85).aspx

General DirectWrite Intro
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/dd371554(v=vs.85).aspx

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #16 from Volga  ---
(In reply to Volga from comment #15)
> I have found BabelPad have an option to switch the engine for anti-aliasing,
> how does it work, is it helpful for this?

BabelPad have this option on Fonts > Quality, which can switch font rendering
enging, this is interesting.

=-ref-=
http://www.babelstone.co.uk/Software/BabelPad_Menu.html#Fonts

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #15 from Volga  ---
I have found BabelPad have an option to switch the engine for anti-aliasing,
how does it work, is it helpful for this?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #14 from Michael Meeks  ---
I like the idea of Skia integration personally, but as you say it needs work.
I'd like to kill this guy though:

> The other issue is that, unlike text layout, people are very sensitive
> to font rendering and people on Windows will most likely scream very loudly
> if LibreOffice started rendering text differently than the system

FWIW - we already did; we've done this for all releases with GL as default -
which has not been using ClearType - and no screaming ;-) Also - Microsoft
Office itself does not use the platform font rendering (except for (just parts)
of its toolbar) - the body / document text is rendering grey-scale with no
hinting - I -assume- to improve cross-platform document rendering ;-)

Re-using whatever code Cairo uses to drive freetype sounds sensible to me too
(for the short-run), I've no problems with that. But I don't think we need to
be overly worried about the platform font integration, and should be more
worried about consistency I think.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #13 from Khaled Hosny  ---
Switching to Freetype is an interesting idea, but IMHO unpractical. First we
don’t use Freetype directly to render text on Linux, we use Cairo, so switching
to Freetype without Cairo will require writing a good chunk of non-trivial
code. The other issue is that, unlike text layout, people are very sensitive to
font rendering and people on Windows will most likely scream very loudly if
LibreOffice started rendering text differently than the system (same on Mac),
and getting Freetype to emulate the Windows font rendering might not be even
possible.

We probably want to switch to a cross-platform graphics library in the future
and unify our graphics and text rendering like we did for text layout. Cairo is
a good candidate since we already have working Cairo integration on Linux, but
I hear that Cairo’s performance on Windows is not very optimal and its
development slowed down considerably in the last years. Skia is another
alternative, used by Chrome and Firefox, but we will need to write Skia
integration from scratch which is not a small project.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #12 from Michael Meeks  ---
I think this is really a red-herring, where OpenGL issues are conflated with
DirectWrite issues. Here is how I'd like us to proceed:

* We need to move to abandon GDI's ExtTextOut - it is a nightmare (as Martin
says). This -may- cause some documents (which were relying on awful,
undocumented, un-sustainable, Windows-only fallback behavior) to change
rendering/layout -> c'est la vie; un-fixable.
+ I'd like to see us using DirectWrite -everywhere- by default GDI,
  GL etc. For Windows-XP - we have to use the legacy horrors here.

* From this point, with a real physical font-API we should be able to cache,
and stamp glyphs as-now with OpenGL, which I'd like to retain as default for
5.3 if we can - lets at least leave it on through some of the bug fixing phase.

I think the OpenGL problems are likely to not be too horrific, but its hard for
Khaled to test the hafbuzz changes against - so he is being shipped an OpenGL
capable Windows laptop to try to help out there =)

Ultimately, wrt. OpenGL - we need to move to a cross-platform, accelerated API
- and there is only one of these, and it it is not GDI+ or Direct2D ;-)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #11 from Volga  ---
(In reply to martin_hosken from comment #9)
> So I am concerned that shipping 5.3 calling GDI is a introducing a nasty
> regression against 5.2. I don't understand the reasoning that says: OpenGL
> is broken, so let's not use D2D at all. Whether we turn off OpenGL by
> default on Windows is neither here nor there, but using GDI ExtTextOut is a
> Bad Thing. Can we turn off OpenGL *and* use D2D?

I have already created bug 101227 for this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #10 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Created attachment 129253
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=129253=edit
sample various combining codepoints including diacritics

(In reply to martin_hosken from comment #9)

Actually not sure we do any worse with GDI vs. GDI+ or OepnGL with DriectWrite. 

Compare the attached between a 5.2.3.3 build and 5.3.0beta1, or current
master--font fallback is obviously now better handled, but the combining
diacritics are composed at least as well as at 5.2.3 with Khaled's GDI
implementation and HarfBuzz layout.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #9 from martin_hos...@sil.org ---
The problem with reverting to GDI is that it is buggy when rendering
diacritics. The only reason GDI rendering worked in the past was that the
shaping and rendering were both done with Uniscribe. The whole reason we bust a
gut to get DirectWrite working for non OpenGL was to work around the bug in
ExtTextOut that is in Windows 8.1 and following that renders glyphs on the
screen in the wrong place.

So I am concerned that shipping 5.3 calling GDI is a introducing a nasty
regression against 5.2. I don't understand the reasoning that says: OpenGL is
broken, so let's not use D2D at all. Whether we turn off OpenGL by default on
Windows is neither here nor there, but using GDI ExtTextOut is a Bad Thing. Can
we turn off OpenGL *and* use D2D?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #8 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Volga from comment #7)
> Also, wen can try to implenment using DirectWrite to render text without OGL.

Well sure, that will ultimately need to happen anyhow. But much of the prior
existing DirectWrite GDI+, Khaled had to strip away piece-by-piece for Windows
GDI to get consistent cross-platform behavior with HarfBuzz, and why the
DirectWrite OpenGL rendering is "less good" at 5.3.0 and on master. 

The GDI default rendering is now in pretty good shape and compares well cross
platform.  But text rendering with OpenGL is lagging behind because DirectWrite
implementation(s) for OpenGL and GDI+ both need to be improved.

Suggestion here is that until that happens we should not enable OpenGL
rendering as default for any users on Windows. It would still be available as
an option, just not the default.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #7 from Volga  ---
Also, wen can try to implenment using DirectWrite to render text without OGL.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

--- Comment #6 from Volga  ---
I guess this can be done if we are still be affected by some annoying OpenGL
related bugs before LibreOffice 5.3.0 stable release is released.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 104242] Temporarily remove OpenGL setting as default rendering for Windows builds

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104242

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|Drop OpenGL as the default  |Temporarily remove OpenGL
   |rendering on Windows builds |setting as default
   |and use GDI based rendering |rendering for Windows
   |for its better layout   |builds
   |support |

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