[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||b...@gmx.com

--- Comment #28 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 158516 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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--- Comment #27 from V Stuart Foote  ---
defined keysyms for use are found in API:

https://api.libreoffice.org/docs/idl/ref/namespacecom_1_1sun_1_1star_1_1awt_1_1Key.html

and found in source:

https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/include/vcl/keycodes.hxx

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

URL||https://api.libreoffice.org
   ||/docs/idl/ref/namespacecom_
   ||1_1sun_1_1star_1_1awt_1_1Ke
   ||y.html

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

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 CC||ska...@yahoo.co.uk

--- Comment #26 from V Stuart Foote  ---
*** Bug 157645 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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--- Comment #25 from Volga  ---
Some Unix-like systems may have Ctrl+Shift+U keys to convert hex number to
Unicode character, it's curiosity whether LibreOffice support both of them.

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--- Comment #24 from Volga  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #10)
> Nothing new since the discussion between Jay and me. My feeling is that
> English keyboard users are not aware of the restrictions that non-English
> users have today regarding possible and user friendly keyboard shortcuts.
Symbl.cc recommended the following Alt codes that is suitable for non-English
letters.
https://symbl.cc/en/alt-codes/

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

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   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||6102

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   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||3302

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

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   See Also|https://bugs.documentfounda |
   |tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13 |
   |4470|

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--- Comment #23 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 134470 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

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 CC||n...@linna.com

--- Comment #22 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 151179 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

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   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14
   ||6226

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--- Comment #21 from Mihkel Tõnnov  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #10)
> Nothing new since the discussion between Jay and me. My feeling is that
> English keyboard users are not aware of the restrictions that non-English
> users have today regarding possible and user friendly keyboard shortcuts.

Indeed.

I'll try to explain the problem a bit more thoroughly.

I'd say there are two major issues with current hardcoded list of keys
available to be used in shortcuts:
1) non-US letters (like Õ, Ä, Ö, Ü, ß, Æ, Ø, Å, not to mention
Greek/Cyrillic/etc. letters) can't be used for shortcuts even if they have
their own key on a layout,
2) punctuation/symbol keys' availability directly vs. with Shift (or AltGr) is
wildly different between US layouts and others.

For instance, consider the following short (yes, short!) list of examples about
available punctuation/symbol keys across some European and Cyrillic layouts:
- dedicated "." key (most layouts) or Shift+semicolon (French layout)?
- dedicated "," key or Shift+period (most Cyrillic layouts)?
- dedicated ":" key (French) or Shift+semicolon (US) or Shift+period (many
European) or even Shift+6 (Russian)?
- dedicated ";" key or Shift+comma (many European layouts) or Shift+4
(Russian)?
- dedicated "=" key or Shift+0 (several European layouts) or Shift+7
(Hungarian) or something else?
- dedicated "/" key or Shift+7 (several European layouts) or Shift+colon
(French)?
- dedicated "[" and "]" keys or AltGr+8 and AltGr+9 (several European layouts)
or something else (e.g. French)?
- are numbers available directly or do they need Shift (French, some Cyrillic
layouts)?

So if a symbol that requires pressing Shift on some layouts (like ";" or "/")
is used in a default shortcut in LibO *without* Shift (e.g. Ctrl+semicolon), it
will either produce unexpected results or not work at all (because LibO detects
also the Shift being pressed).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

--- Comment #20 from Mihkel Tõnnov  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #17)
> *** Bug 131316 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

The request at bug 131316 seems quite unrelated to this one here (and way more
complicated).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||4470

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

--- Comment #19 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Janvi from comment #18)
> ... problems than I tried to describe in bug #131316

> cntl + q - s what is to press the two keys cntl  and q, then release both
> (or only one or none) and then press the key s. This requires further states
> for a state machine implementation.

I disagree here. Those key sequences are always rather easter eggs than usable
interactions. Maybe some specialized apps work like this but not in general. 

> 1) writing a real time state machine...
> 2) modifing all used LO classes
> 3) connect output from 1 to 2
> 4) configure a default setup

Right now we have something like 

css::awt::Key::A -> "KEY_A" (defined at multiple places)
css::awt::Key::CTRL_LEFT -> "KEY_MOD1"
KEY_MOD1 + KEY_A -> .uno:SelectAll

there is nothing like 

css::awt::Key::Ä defined to use ctrl+Ä (A umlaut). If you describe U+00CA
+ ctrl as state machine I'm with you. The point with KDE was rather how to get
the Ä into the game since we a) do not want to add this key value and every
other possible to the program and b) want to respect localized keyboards (yours
likely has no Ä key available but you can press ; without need for shift).

Some numbers to show how much effort it is:

git grep KEY_A |wc -l
198
git grep KEY_MOD1 |wc -l
564

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

--- Comment #18 from Janvi  ---
Hello Heiko & UI team,  this bug #115052 is mentioned in my related issues list
but IMHO none of the related issues of any mentioned bugs hits identical 
problems than I tried to describe in bug #131316

To follow your KDE link I booted Kubuntu from USB stick and tried the keyboard
customization dialog what is obviously a result of GSoC2011. The dialog looks
nice but disqualifies for use inside a text editor for several reasons. Most
important: It does not support key key sequences described in bug #131316.

Example for key combination (like it is LO now but not all free combinations
possible)

cntl + shift + q is to press the 3 keys cntl - shift and q same time.
Practically this is already a simple state machine for the reason, a keyboard
reports key up/down codes but I consider this as a pure logical combination.

Example for key sequence (as bug #131316 tries to describe)

cntl + q - s what is to press the two keys cntl  and q, then release both (or
only one or none) and then press the key s. This requires further states for a
state machine implementation. Cntl-Q enters first state, and s enters second
state while the s key used without preceding cntl-q is writing a „s“ character
to the text or doing something else. #131316 mentioned editors can do this.

Here is a „who is who“ keyboard emulation table for some well known text
editors, unfortunable incomplete with many questions marks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_text_editors#Key_bindings

Most of them are programmers editors, but some are also multi purpose for
office documents and programmers. Almost all of them can be considered as
„legacy“ style but some are maintained up on today by its enthusiastic user
communities.

To understand the situation, we have to dig a into computer history. Otherwhile
bug reports like: In situation xx shorcut yy is not working“ will continiue and
any patches will make the patchwork more complicated. The first 2 columns of
the link are IBM CUA and MacOS.  Remarkably, this are NO text editors but UI
frameworks while the remaining columns are editors. For the same reason, a 
sustainable patch should be implemented equivalent to this columns.

There is no discussion about todays LO default configuration for Macintosh
should be MacOS and for Microsoft IBM-CUA but the way to reach this should be
different from what LO is doing now. Ideally users expect to be exactly
compatible with Word behaviour.

In the time before the MFC (Microsoft Foundation Class) every editor for CPM
and later DOS came with its own printer driver, screen driver and of coarse its
own keyboard bindings. Starwriter by Marco Börries already supported mouse.
Beside being an LOs ancestor it is a prig candidate for that editor category
with extensive use of key sequences why I mentioned him in my bug report
#131316. That time faded out with Apple, Microsoft SDK/GDI and later the MFC.
Writing a text editor suddenly becomes easy. Framworks like Qt allow system
independend development. Derive your application from the correct class and it
will do what users expect becouse it behaves like everything else. This is a
great benefit as application developers dont have to write a single line for
displays or printers and things like graphical print-preview or PDF output are
simply working. Same time the users dont have to learn how to print a sheet of
paper for every application separate.

Unfortunately, this is not a benefit for the keyboard as some power of the
legacy system keyboards disappeared thereby. And worse, it is not possible to
bring this back by any custom configurations. Further this is not only true for
keyboard bindings but also and less known for mouse input. This bug report only
covers the keyboard bindings. Any OO class concepts with pre wired keyboard
functionality comes to its limits as system wide predefined shortcuts are in
conflict with customized user setup wishes in some situations. An example is
given for Mozilla below. 

With other words: A sustainable solution for LO  (at least for the writer)
should not use any inherited class behaviour for keyboard. A new keyboard input
instance needs to go back to very basic keycode inputs. Key codes are numeric
values for a physical hardware key. Unless character codes, key codes are not
influenced by the system language setup nor any character what is printed on
the key button nor by its modifier keys shift, cntrl, alt or other meta
modifier keys. 

To get in touch with the key codes you can try one of the many pages like 
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/tests/keys.html 

This page also allows to try the keyboard predicament using Mozilla or any
other browser what is also true for LO keyboard setup: Backspace goes to
previous URL for a W10 machine, while cntl-Q is going to quit the browser tabs
for a Gnome desktop. Both cases, this keys cannot be used for a user
assignment. For a web browser or even 

[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

Dieter  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||41560
 CC||dgp-m...@gmx.de


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=41560
[Bug 41560] [META] Keyboard shortcuts tab of Customization dialog
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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||ja...@veith.net

--- Comment #17 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 131316 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Priority|high|medium

--- Comment #16 from Xisco Faulí  ---
Changing priority back to 'medium' since the number of duplicates is lower than
5

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71
   ||176

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

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   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||3656

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Severity|normal  |enhancement
   Priority|medium  |high
 OS|Mac OS X (All)  |All

--- Comment #15 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to dhina from comment #14)
>...

The issue is not macOS specific nor it is a bug in a closer sense. But I agree
with the higher relevance.

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dhinagh...@yahoo.fr changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|unspecified |6.1.4.2 release
 CC||dhinagh...@yahoo.fr
   Severity|enhancement |normal
 OS|All |Mac OS X (All)

--- Comment #14 from dhinagh...@yahoo.fr ---
I have the same "Cmd+`" issue with a french Keyboard on Mac 10.12.

It is very annoying when you are used to use this shortcut on all your
applications and that it does not work only on LibreOffice.

Also, this bug can be of high importance because when you have a selected
sentence (or paragraph or page...), doing "Cmd+`" will delete the text. As the
shortcut also change the window, you don't see that the text was deleted and
you can lose it.

Same thing on Spreadshit when you have selected a cell. Doing this short cut
will delete the cell content while shifting to the previous LibreOffice window
and then you don't realize the cell content was deleted.

Best,

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

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Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||h.horik...@aist.go.jp

--- Comment #13 from Xisco Faulí  ---
*** Bug 115361 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||frank...@goodhorse.idv.tw

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
*** Bug 117555 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||t...@libreoffice.org

--- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Thorsten said at some point it's possible to rework the hard-coded key
assignments. Was an idea for GSoC (#6 at
https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-GSoC_Ideas) but since no mentor was
interested and students apparently looked at the official list only we don't
have one yet.

Whether this ticket remains unconfirmed or should become new is up to you.
Right now it's a wontfix but from UX POV it's very recommended to change.

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--- Comment #10 from Thomas Lendo  ---
Nothing new since the discussion between Jay and me. My feeling is that English
keyboard users are not aware of the restrictions that non-English users have
today regarding possible and user friendly keyboard shortcuts.

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Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org

--- Comment #9 from Xisco Faulí  ---
wow, there's been a long discussion going on in here.
@Heiko @Thomas, could you please update on the current status?

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--- Comment #8 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Paul Oranje from comment #7)
> On macOS the Cmd+` (back tick) key code is used as the shortcut to switch
> between opened documents in a app. Calc in LO6 breaks this and toggles show
> formulas.
> 
> Breaking platform UX is bad even more so when one cannot re-assign the key.

That was addressed in Bug 114858

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--- Comment #7 from Paul Oranje  ---
On macOS the Cmd+` (back tick) key code is used as the shortcut to switch
between opened documents in a app. Calc in LO6 breaks this and toggles show
formulas.

Breaking platform UX is bad even more so when one cannot re-assign the key.

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--- Comment #6 from Thomas Lendo  ---
I don't know the internal restrictions and what's hardcoded, but as a first
step maybe it's possible to allow shortcut keys from a non-English keyboard for
not restricted/hardcoded things?

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--- Comment #5 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #4)
> (In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #2)
> > The locale shortcut fix is one step but isn't perfectly usable now because
> > of the very limited range of available (US English) keys. Many keys of
> > non-US English keyboard layouts cannot be used today
> Then likely an enhancement report should be filed to include non-US
> characters into the list
This can be answered in this enhancement request and that's what this bug is
for. Pre-defined enhanced shortcut key list or auto-detected by locale or
auto-detected by the plugged keyboard or whatever is possible or realistic.

> > a shortcut like Ctrl+# is possible with a German keyboard layout but not
> > with an US English keyboard layout
> Ctrl+# is available on the english locale with Ctrl+Shift+3.
Modifier1+Key (my request) is a completely different shortcut combination than
Modifier1+Modifier2+Key (your suggestion). [And of course I know that and where
# is available on an US keyboard layout ...]

> > The same is valid vice versa: Ctrl+; isn't
> > possible with a German keyboard layout (as US English ';' key is 'ö' in
> > German) so this can be hidden there, but must be shown for US English
> > keyboard layout.
> I can see ';' in the same ',' key in the german keyboard image you linked to.
As said before: English Ctrl+; (Modifier1+Key) would be available via
Ctrl+Shift+, (Modifier1+Modifier2+Key) on an German keyboard but that's no
solution for the request of this enhancement request. Ctrl+Shift operations
should only be used for seldom used functions--and to expect that non-US users
should use complicate shortcuts for things for that US users have a good/easier
shortcut is not user friendly.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> Created attachment 139139 [details]
> Keyboard assignment on LXQt
> 
> Would drop the whole concept of predefined keys and just allow anything what
> comes from the keyboard. That also means the keyboard tab needs a complete
> revamp. Something like KDE has or in the attached example from LXQt (after
> clicking the shortcut button you have 10s to press any key combination).
Maybe what you show from LXQt can be done as a first step. Sounds like an ugly
hack (from UX perspective) but to add an extra possibility to add a key
combination--that also allows non-US keyboard keys--would prevent to revamp the
whole Customize dialog and hard coded key assignments in the LO code.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||muhammet.k...@pardus.org.tr

--- Comment #4 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
(In reply to Thomas Lendo from comment #2)
> The locale shortcut fix is one step but isn't perfectly usable now because
> of the very limited range of available (US English) keys. Many keys of
> non-US English keyboard layouts cannot be used today--but these keys would
> be easier for non-US English locale users to use and would avoid dislocate
> their fingers to use them ;-).

Then likely an enhancement report should be filed to include non-US characters
into the list, though not sure these are possible to detect by the code.

> Haven't said anything about hiding shortcut that are less used. I meant that
> a shortcut like Ctrl+# is possible with a German keyboard layout but not
> with an US English keyboard layout - so Ctrl+# shouldn't or need not to be
> available for US English locale.

Ctrl+# is available on the english locale with Ctrl+Shift+3.

> The same is valid vice versa: Ctrl+; isn't
> possible with a German keyboard layout (as US English ';' key is 'ö' in
> German) so this can be hidden there, but must be shown for US English
> keyboard layout.

I can see ';' in the same ',' key in the german keyboard image you linked to.

(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #3)
> Would drop the whole concept of predefined keys and just allow anything what
> comes from the keyboard. That also means the keyboard tab needs a complete
> revamp. Something like KDE has or in the attached example from LXQt (after
> clicking the shortcut button you have 10s to press any key combination).

I've found KDE's keyboard implementation way to complicated.

> Thomas' suggestion may improve the functionality slightly but it's still an
> ugly implementation and a totally weird UI. Adding Muhammet for his opinion.

You forgot to CC him.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

--- Comment #3 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 139139
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=139139=edit
Keyboard assignment on LXQt

Would drop the whole concept of predefined keys and just allow anything what
comes from the keyboard. That also means the keyboard tab needs a complete
revamp. Something like KDE has or in the attached example from LXQt (after
clicking the shortcut button you have 10s to press any key combination).

The shortcut list is populated with values in
https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/cui/source/customize/acccfg.cxx
where KEY_F1, for instance, is defined in
https://opengrok.libreoffice.org/xref/core/include/vcl/keycodes.hxx - and those
constants are used all over the program. So I doubt that we can clean it up.

Thomas' suggestion may improve the functionality slightly but it's still an
ugly implementation and a totally weird UI. Adding Muhammet for his opinion.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

--- Comment #2 from Thomas Lendo  ---
(In reply to Yousuf Philips (jay) from comment #1)
> The correct solution in my view is to fix the shortcuts per locale so that
> it works best for their keyboards ...
The locale shortcut fix is one step but isn't perfectly usable now because of
the very limited range of available (US English) keys. Many keys of non-US
English keyboard layouts cannot be used today--but these keys would be easier
for non-US English locale users to use and would avoid dislocate their fingers
to use them ;-).

> and not hide keys in different locales as
> they are less likely to be used but still accessible with the locale
> keyboard, as that just complicates things more.
> 
> For example, we list complicated shortcuts that begin with Ctrl + Alt and
> Ctrl + Shift + Alt, with pretty much all of them being unassigned, but
> hiding them from users as they arent likely going to use them is bad as some
> users may like to assign them.
Haven't said anything about hiding shortcut that are less used. I meant that a
shortcut like Ctrl+# is possible with a German keyboard layout but not with an
US English keyboard layout - so Ctrl+# shouldn't or need not to be available
for US English locale. The same is valid vice versa: Ctrl+; isn't possible with
a German keyboard layout (as US English ';' key is 'ö' in German) so this can
be hidden there, but must be shown for US English keyboard layout.

Compare
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/51/KB_United_States-NoAltGr.svg
and https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/36/KB_Germany.svg for
example or use one of the many other keyboard layouts
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com,
   ||tietze.he...@gmail.com,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #1 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
The correct solution in my view is to fix the shortcuts per locale so that it
works best for their keyboards and not hide keys in different locales as they
are less likely to be used but still accessible with the locale keyboard, as
that just complicates things more.

For example, we list complicated shortcuts that begin with Ctrl + Alt and Ctrl
+ Shift + Alt, with pretty much all of them being unassigned, but hiding them
from users as they arent likely going to use them is bad as some users may like
to assign them.

So WontFix for me. @Heiko, Stuart: thoughts.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 115052] Allow other keys than from US keyboard as shortcut keys

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115052

Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||107243
   Severity|normal  |enhancement


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107243
[Bug 107243] [META] Locale keyboard shortcut issues
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