[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX
 Status|NEW |RESOLVED

--- Comment #12 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Following comment 11 we should resolve the request as WF.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||philip...@hotmail.com,
   ||tietze.he...@gmail.com

--- Comment #11 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
> * Run the attached event listener
> * Create a Writer document, insert -> frame, accept
> * The frame should be focused, otherwise click on it to focus
> * The event listener will output: "object name: Frame1"

It isnt a placeholder name as a user can change this automatically generated
name/id with a different one in the options tab of the frame dialog, so i dont
see a problem here. But even if a placeholder name was assigned to an object,
it is used as a means of differentiating multiple objects of the same kind, and
this primarily benefits a11y but also navigator users.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
 Blocks|36549   |101912

--- Comment #10 from V Stuart Foote  ---
an issue for all AT tools, adjusting the blocks meta


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=36549
[Bug 36549] [META] ACCESSIBILITY: Tracking bug for issues affecting a11y ATK
and GNOME Orca screen reader support
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101912
[Bug 101912] [META] Accessibility (a11y) bugs and enhancements
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|LibreOffice |Writer

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #8 from Alex ARNAUD  ---
It should be so interesting to have a real title about the content of the frame
for deciding if we want to see the content or not.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

Robinson Tryon (qubit)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||accessibility
 Whiteboard|a11y|

--- Comment #7 from Robinson Tryon (qubit)  ---
Migrating Whiteboard tags to Keywords: (a11y -> accessibility)

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #6 from Niklas Johansson sleeping.pil...@gmail.com ---
(In reply to Jacobo Aragunde Pérez from comment #4)

 ... As additional info, at right click - description you can
 enter a title that will be used as the accessible name of the object,
 ignoring the name found at right click - frame - options.

How about changing the behavior so it never falls back to presenting the name
of object, but only use the information in title and description?

If I'm not mistaken frames needs a unique name. Also that name is among other
things useful for features of the navigator.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

Robinson Tryon (qubit) qu...@runcibility.com changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||qu...@runcibility.com
  Component|UI  |ux-advise
 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 Whiteboard||a11y
   Severity|normal  |enhancement

--- Comment #5 from Robinson Tryon (qubit) qu...@runcibility.com ---
(In reply to Christophe Strobbe from comment #1)
 Anyway, the current behaviour is that LibreOffice always fills in the
 frame's name (attribute draw:name); when you delete the name and save the
 file, then reopen the frame options, you will find that LibreOffice has
 filled in a name. 
 
 Is there a better way of dealing with this issue than removing the
 placeholder names? I am thinking specifically of prompting the user to
 provide a meaningful name when inserting a frame. This would also be useful
 for many other types of objects.

Sounds like a UI/UX discussion about best way to improve a11y, so

Status - NEW
Component - ux-advise
Severity - enhancement

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #1 from Christophe Strobbe c_strobbe-...@yahoo.co.uk ---
Hmm, are we expected to download and run an executable that we know nothing
about? Is this program also available elsewhere? Which OS does it run on? Are
there any alternative ways or tools to check this issue? 

And what is the effect of not having any names? Do AT (as opposed to accessible
event listeners) still report the presence of the frame or do they use the
absence of a name as an unwritten convention for objects that don't need to be
reported (like empty alt attributes on images in HTML4.x and XHTML 1.x)? 

Anyway, the current behaviour is that LibreOffice always fills in the frame's
name (attribute draw:name); when you delete the name and save the file, then
reopen the frame options, you will find that LibreOffice has filled in a name. 

Is there a better way of dealing with this issue than removing the placeholder
names? I am thinking specifically of prompting the user to provide a meaningful
name when inserting a frame. This would also be useful for many other types of
objects.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #2 from Jacobo Aragunde Pérez jaragu...@igalia.com ---
(In reply to comment #1)
 Hmm, are we expected to download and run an executable that we know nothing
 about? Is this program also available elsewhere? Which OS does it run on?
 Are there any alternative ways or tools to check this issue? 
 

The program is a Python script, it's plain text and you can read the code to
check it's not doing nasty things :) It uses pyatspi library so it's supposed
to work only in Linux machines.

You can also check this using any software that allows browsing the objects
exposed by the accessibility API, like Accerciser. I'm attaching a screenshot.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #3 from Jacobo Aragunde Pérez jaragu...@igalia.com ---
Created attachment 102613
  -- https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=102613action=edit
Issue exposed in Accerciser

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81168

--- Comment #4 from Jacobo Aragunde Pérez jaragu...@igalia.com ---
(In reply to comment #1)
 And what is the effect of not having any names? Do AT (as opposed to
 accessible event listeners) still report the presence of the frame or do
 they use the absence of a name as an unwritten convention for objects that
 don't need to be reported (like empty alt attributes on images in HTML4.x
 and XHTML 1.x)? 
 

I've checked what Orca does, it says Frame1 text frame activated when I focus
it, as you can see the role already tells us we are dealing with a text frame.
I don't think it ignores objects with empty names, as a matter of fact most
objects like paragraphs don't have it.

 Anyway, the current behaviour is that LibreOffice always fills in the
 frame's name (attribute draw:name); when you delete the name and save the
 file, then reopen the frame options, you will find that LibreOffice has
 filled in a name. 
 

That's right. As additional info, at right click - description you can enter a
title that will be used as the accessible name of the object, ignoring the name
found at right click - frame - options.

 Is there a better way of dealing with this issue than removing the
 placeholder names? I am thinking specifically of prompting the user to
 provide a meaningful name when inserting a frame. This would also be useful
 for many other types of objects.

The description dialog would be a great candidate for this but I fear that
prompting the user for a title every time a frame is inserted would be too
intrusive.

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