[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88559

Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||open-assist...@rasparta.org

--- Comment #29 from Mike Kaganski  ---
*** Bug 156180 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||3623

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--- Comment #28 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Created attachment 187776
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=187776=edit
Example from KDE

KDE's system settings do have something similar: a dot indicator that shows
what option was changed. We should do the same and show those indicator if for
altered attributes. Related to bug 155113 the indicator would be visible but
off (maybe grayed out or just another icon) if something has changed. And it
has of course the states on (visible) and off (hidden).

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15
   ||5113

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #27 from Eyal Rozenberg  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #26)
> Meanwhile we implemented the Styles Inspector which does exactly this,
> showing the attribute inheritance.

It doesn't do what's requested in this bug, which is: When you choose to modify
a style and as you modify it, have an indication of the inherited attributes.

You could argue its existence weighs against going to great lengths and
possibly cluttering the style editing dialog UI in order to achieve this end;
but it's certainly doesn't satisfy the same need.

> Regarding Mike's mockup I think it's about the missing capability to remove
> attributes and reset it individually to the parent. There is another ticket
> for this specific feature.

But the small per-setting control is usable to, at the time, show the
inherited/non-inherited state and be able to reset to "inherit".

Anyway, I really don't see how there could be any argument again splitting the
"contains" text into an inherited part and an explicitly-set part.

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--- Comment #26 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Meanwhile we implemented the Styles Inspector which does exactly this, showing
the attribute inheritance. My take, resolve WFM.

Regarding Mike's mockup I think it's about the missing capability to remove
attributes and reset it individually to the parent. There is another ticket for
this specific feature.

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Eyal Rozenberg  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||eyalr...@gmx.com

--- Comment #25 from Eyal Rozenberg  ---
I want to remind everyone that in addition to the more involved changes to the
UI, Yousuf suggested:

(Yousuf Philips (jay) (retired) from comment #6)
> We should add a section above 'Contains' called 'Inherited' and then list
> the name of the parent style followed by its attributes that arent being
> overwritten by the child style. 

I believe this should be implemented independently of other changes. IMHO this
is both easy to implement, has no drawbacks that I can think of, and will not
interfere with changes to the rest of the UI.

(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #18)
> Personally my preference (visually and functionally) would be a *small
> button* attached to each property's *label*

Looked at the mockup. I support this general approach (of per-item toggles),
but currently I feel this makes the dialog feel too cluttered. Possible
mitigations/improvements:

* Have the per-property control indicate "non-inherited" vs "inherited"status
by some other way than grayed-out / non-grayed-out.
* The per-property toggles will have lower visibility / attract less attention,
e.g.
  * invisible when not hovering over the main control or the toggle, and/or
  * black circle-surrounded control over gray dialog background
* Per-tab or per-dialog control (e.g. checkbox) of whether the per-property
toggles are visible/usable or not.

An alternative idea altogether to Mike's mock-up is to have a
per-tab/per-dialog toggle which highlights non-inherited properties, or perhaps
hides inherited properties. Not sure I'm in favor of this, it's just a thought.

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13
   ||6433

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Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl
Version|unspecified |Inherited From OOo

--- Comment #24 from Cor Nouws  ---
Hi Mike,

(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #21)
> Created attachment 166403 [details]
> Mockup with small buttons at labels
Thanks :)
Has it been considered to have one 'revert to inherited' button per tab page?

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--- Comment #23 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Dieter from comment #22)

Absolutely. Another possible inaccuracy is that I didn't care to check which
attributes there actually relate to a single inheritable property, and which
are separate (so maybe e.g. Left/Right/... should had not have their separate
buttons, but one common) ... I assumed that the idea is still shown.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #22 from Dieter  ---
Thanks for your Mockup, but just for clarifcation: It shows page style dialog,
where inherited styles are not possible (at least at the moment). I assume, the
mockup is only for paragraph style dialog and character style dialog. Correct?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #21 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Created attachment 166403
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=166403=edit
Mockup with small buttons at labels

This mockup shows the idea from comment 18. There are buttons at labels for
individual controls (Left/Right/Top/Bottom...); or at groups of controls where
they define a single property (Line Arrangement, Shadow Style). Grey mean "no
resetting to inherited possible" == "these are already inherited values".

The tooltip allows to see what this button does. The tooltip could of course
change to "This value is inherited" for grey buttons.

As shown, this problem (tracked in this bug) is orthogonal to the problem what
to display for "not defined in parents" values, which, as mentioned in comment
17, must be a separate issue.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #20 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Christian Lehmann from comment #19)
> > 1. You added a *different* (and real) problem that Character styles may have
> > some properties unspecified, and should not in fact display random values
> > instead. As said: although real problem, this should be tracked separately
> > (possibly already filed?).
> Yes of course, in Bug 137439, which you yourself marked as a duplicate of
> the present bug. Now is it isn't it a duplicate?

In bug 137439, the original problem was "I cannot make some style avoid
definition of some property". That was because of this bug primarily. Also it
*happened* to operate on a character style not based on a parent which would
define that specific property, thus mentioning the other problem. Please
re-read my description in that bug: "yes there is problem A, but the *main
problem* is problem B". So marking that bug as duplicate of problem B does not
make it equal to problem A.

> 
> > 2. You suggested a totally new feature to allow making any property
> > undefined, *regardless of inherited state of it*. It is totally irrelevant
> > here. It needs an own feature request.
> Did I suggest this?

(In reply to Christian Lehmann from comment #16)
> a) The user could set the value of any property to 'none'.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #19 from Christian Lehmann  ---
(In reply to Mike Kaganski from comment #17)
> (In reply to Christian Lehmann from comment #16)
> 
> Please don't make this issue confusing.
It is by treating a display problem in isolation and proposing ad hoc solutions
for it that one confuses things. I was trying to be more circumspect.

> Your comment made at least two unrelated expansions to the specific issue
> tracked here.
> 
> 1. You added a *different* (and real) problem that Character styles may have
> some properties unspecified, and should not in fact display random values
> instead. As said: although real problem, this should be tracked separately
> (possibly already filed?).
Yes of course, in Bug 137439, which you yourself marked as a duplicate of the
present bug. Now is it isn't it a duplicate?

> 2. You suggested a totally new feature to allow making any property
> undefined, *regardless of inherited state of it*. It is totally irrelevant
> here. It needs an own feature request.
Did I suggest this?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #18 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Personally my preference (visually and functionally) would be a *small button*
attached to each property's *label*; something like the small "More options"
buttons in sidebars, just named "Revert to inherited". They could have tooltips
for discoverability; enabled state for indication of "not inherited = defined
here" state; and some mnemonic pictogram resembling theme's "undo". This would
slightly increase space used for the labels, but would allow to unify this
feature - to avoid problems of different resetting methods for e.g. textual
properties vs borders or the like...

And I suppose that making it always visible is better compared to a toggle,
because this functionality is not something "optional" or "advanced".

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #17 from Mike Kaganski  ---
(In reply to Christian Lehmann from comment #16)

Please don't make this issue confusing.
Your comment made at least two unrelated expansions to the specific issue
tracked here.

1. You added a *different* (and real) problem that Character styles may have
some properties unspecified, and should not in fact display random values
instead. As said: although real problem, this should be tracked separately
(possibly already filed?).
2. You suggested a totally new feature to allow making any property undefined,
*regardless of inherited state of it*. It is totally irrelevant here. It needs
an own feature request.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #16 from Christian Lehmann  ---
As far as I understand, there are the following problems for the UI here:
1) How are unspecified properties of a style handled?
  a) How can the user leave the value for a selected property unspecified?
  b) What does it mean to leave an inherited property unspecified?
2) How can he get an overview that distinguishes between:
  a) values that he fixed for this style
  b) values that his style inherits from the parent (that he chose when
pressing 'New')
  c) values that remain unspecified and will be fixed only once a string thus
styled is embedded in a given context.

Ad 1: Several voices agree that pressing the 'Standard' button is both too
sweeping an action and not really intuitive if one just wants to leave one
property unspecified. (This doesn't entail, of course, that the button should
be removed.)
Couldn't the list of values enumerated for each of the properties comprise a
value 'none'? (Or alternatively a blank field?) As the user starts defining his
style, each properties tab would show, for each property, the value inherited
from the chosen parent, and otherwise 'none'.
a) The user could set the value of any property to 'none'. For a character
style, this would mean that the value is (not inherited from that style's
parent, but instead) assigned once a string thus styled is embedded in an
actual text.
In the tab containing the property in question, this selection of the user's
would keep being shown; i.e., Writer would not replace it by the current
default value, in order not to mislead the user about what he fixed and what he
left open.
b) Selecting 'none' as the value of an inherited property does not seem to make
sense. More in general, one may wonder what sense it makes for the user to
change the value of a property that is inherited from the parent that he
himself chose. To the extent that he changes the values of such properties, his
new style is not actually a child of the chosen parent. If he really wants
that, maybe LO should encourage him to step up the hierarchy in choosing an
appropriate parent. (As a side effect, such a constraint would greatly simplify
handling of the styles hierarchy.)

Ad 2): I think something like comment 6 would solve it for items #a and #b.
Nothing needs to be shown about item #c.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #15 from Caolán McNamara  ---
Well, I don't really have any good answers wrt any specific solution, digging
around similar software doesn't show anything obvious to follow as a model.

But from a weld api view we use e.g. "set_message_type" to indicate that an
Entry contains an error and not specify how it indicates that error. So I could
imagine something similar that leaves it up to each backend to figure out what
to do to make that happen in the context of their own capabilities.

Maybe adding some "reset" to right context menus avoids the clutter of extra
buttons for that functionality, maybe labels are underlined  or widget
backgrounds set to some appropriate theme color.

Maybe something like this feature shouldn't be on all the time, but only if
some togglebutton in the button area is depressed. Such a special state would
give a little more leeway in that a backend could then position a little
"reset" button over the middle of widgets to allow them to be designated
reset-back-to-parent. Having a toggle to enable some sort of "overlay" like
that would sidestep visual clutter and any need to change any widget layout.

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||caol...@redhat.com

--- Comment #14 from Mike Kaganski  ---
Caolán: this bug (a major usability pain actually) depends on abilities of used
controls; could you please advise?

This (and related bug 89826) might have many possible fixes, e.g.:

- controls showing default values having blue border (accessibility problem?)
- having bold labels (same)
- having labels include some indicator text
- dedicated additional labels *after* (to the right of (in LTR case)) controls
- having no value at all (but what about controls like borders/color picker,
which are not edit controls? Create special "blank" states for them?)
- a variation of the latter, when the controls do have values, but in grey
color
- a small "lock" button next to *each* control which pressed state means "use
inherited"
...

They all seem to have multiple problems (accessibility; cluttering, etc) - but
the main problem is implementability. The way to indicate the status of *each
single property* in style dialogs (inherited or defined explicitly here in this
style), and (to a lesser extent) a way to reset that single property to
inherited status, is really needed thing. The problems should be fixed after
the fact (e.g., accessibility could be handled by providing appropriate
information to screen reader and tooltip; clutter is of less importance, and
let design team to re-order controls to fit better after the fact, etc.)

I say that resetting single properties is needed "to a lesser extent", because
if the controls would indicate their "inherited" status (say, have colored
border), then using "Standard" button to reset to inherited would be much more
usable. But of course, a combined solution (like a small button) would be
welcome by many.

Could you please advise what solution is possible/preferred?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

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--- Comment #13 from Telesto  ---
Small inquiry. This bug and bug 89826 are about the same topic? And works for
me because of "Display" taken literally here?

Agreeing with comment 10 of course, but could also be bug 89826

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Thomas Lendo  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Hardware|Other   |All

--- Comment #12 from Thomas Lendo  ---
I support Mike's objection in comment 10. Neither single settings can set back
to its inherited value nor inherited values are visible in the Styles dialog.

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||christianw_lehm...@arcor.de

--- Comment #11 from Mike Kaganski  ---
*** Bug 137439 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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Mike Kaganski  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|NEW
 Resolution|WORKSFORME  |---

--- Comment #10 from Mike Kaganski  ---
It can NOT be any kind of WORKSFORME - just because somewhere there is now a
power tool, usable only by power users.

This is a really needed missing feature - and it is independent of the Styles
Inspector. The style and direct properties dialogs must have indication about
what was defined here, and what was not.

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WORKSFORME

--- Comment #9 from Heiko Tietze  ---
This has been implemented during GSoC20 by Shivam Kumar Singh [1], remaining
tickets are handled in bug 134554.

[1] https://shivam-51.github.io/

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--- Comment #8 from Telesto  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #5)
> (In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #4)
> > @Heiko: This report is about managing the content of hierarchical styles in
> > the Style dialog.
> 
> Was afraid of this answer ;-).
> 
> So what we need is an indicator at the various properties which one has been
> overridden. For example, "Caption" has the children "Drawing" and when font
> style is set bold there instead of italic from the parent it should get an
> identification. Known solutions are a small icon next to the label, simpler
> is to add a * to the label or to modify it's appearance, e.g. text in blue.
> But the latter could get into conflict with the theme.

Or a (kind of) (colored) border around the dialog items which are inherited.
Area would be slightly problematic area. However it would work. Not sure if
this is a11y proof..

Ideally combined with a tooltip kind of thing to show where the style is coming
from.

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Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=38
   ||194

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Harald Koester  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||harald.koes...@mail.de

--- Comment #7 from Harald Koester  ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #4)

> The second is about making the inheritance visible in the tab pages. I can
> think of making the item "italic" or for field entries adding an indicator
> before or after the content, e.g. '(i) 12pt' instead of simple '12 pt'. No
> idea how to do it for other kind of controls.

I also think, if a font and its size is inherited from the Basic Fonts in the
options dialogue [LibreOffice Writer > Basic Fonts (Western|Asian|CTL)], that
this should be indicated somehow, e.g. '(o) Liberation Serif' or '(o) 12pt'.

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Harald Koester  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||8781

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles in Styles dialog

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88559

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords||needsDevEval, topicUI
Summary|Display of inherited|Display of inherited
   |attributes from parent  |attributes from parent
   |styles  |styles in Styles dialog

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 88559] Display of inherited attributes from parent styles

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88559

Yousuf Philips (jay)  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |philip...@hotmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|
 Blocks||108456
Summary|Cannot reset changed style  |Display of inherited
   |property to inherited   |attributes from parent
   ||styles

--- Comment #6 from Yousuf Philips (jay)  ---
We should add a section above 'Contains' called 'Inherited' and then list the
name of the parent style followed by its attributes that arent being
overwritten by the child style. Example design below for Heading 1

Inherited
 Heading:
  Western text: Liberation Sans, From bottom 0.08 inch + Keep with next
paragraph

Contains
 Western Text: 130% + bold + Numbering(Outline) + 1 + Indent left 0.0 inch,
Indent right 0.0 inch + From top 0.17 inch, From bottom 0.08 inch

Note: 14pt isnt displayed in 'Heading' as it is being overwritten by the 130%
in 'Heading 1'.


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108456
[Bug 108456] [META] Style modify dialog bugs and enhancements
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