[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error to warn (inexperienced) users

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #30 from Buovjaga  ---
*** Bug 148319 has been marked as a duplicate of this bug. ***

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error to warn (inexperienced) users

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #29 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #28)
> Before deleting a column, row or sheet all cells to be deleted must be
> checked with...

It still requires to scan the whole document, which is time-consuming. See
comment 15. However, you may easily write a macro that does exactly what you
need.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error to warn (inexperienced) users

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #28 from Ferdinand  ---
Hi, i just checked 6.4 

suggested solution:
Before deleting a column, row or sheet all cells to be deleted must be checked
with

"Detective/Trace dependents" 

and raise an error "Cell x:y on sheet z" depends on "Cell a:b on sheet c"  for
the first positive.

This would create a very unique selling point - at least for a while 
and save a lot of time and tears.

And from an usability point of view, I think it's a trade off between
performance and time spent for restoring broken sheets.

IMO a very clear decision. 
and if someone really prefers or needs ref errors due to performance issues,
this can be made configurable like "iterative references". 

sorry to be irksome.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error to warn (inexperienced) users

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|delete referenced cell -|delete referenced cell -
   |raise error |raise error to warn
   ||(inexperienced) users

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #27 from Cor Nouws  ---
Hi Ferdinand,

(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #16)
> Sorry I do not understand this reasoning in comment 15
> 
> the referenced cell shows the error immediately (given automatic calc is on) 
> if in addition to the error in the cell a pop up is triggered with the undo
> option it would solve the problem without noticeable delay. 
That sounds as if it is easier to implement, without the negative effects on
performance, and other trouble that @erack explained.
But I doubt it really is simpler, because it still would be necessary not only
do the changes invoked by a user action (which in done automatically, unless it
is turned off) to track if one or more of the changes indeed are invalidated
results, that then would trigger the popup. The latter is simple, but the step
before.. Eike, if you could be so kind to give your expert input on this..

(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #23/25)
> we do get a warning if we want to past new content into cells with content
> we also should get a warning if referenced cells are removed
That could be a completely different approach?
Such as: I delete some content for the first time, then a popup tells me: "are
you really sure, you may break formulas .. etc" ?
But rather generic, probably panicking inexperienced users. And how to act on
editing cell contents?

How much I like (or not, as a professional trainer ;) ) the idea to prevent
users doing stupid things, I still see no workable solution for this..

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #26 from Ferdinand  ---
Created attachment 154163
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=154163=edit
warning overriding cells with content

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Ferdinand  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|WONTFIX |---

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #25 from Ferdinand  ---
we also should get a warning if referenced cells are removed

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #23 from Ferdinand  ---
me again ;-)
Version: 6.3.1.2

we do get a warning if we want to past new content into cells with content

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #24 from Ferdinand  ---
me again ;-)
Version: 6.3.1.2

we do get a warning if we want to past new content into cells with content

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #22 from Ferdinand  ---
(In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #20)
> (In reply to Ferdinand from comment #0)
> > if a referenced cell is deleted (delete row/column) the referencing cells
> > show #REF
> > if this cell is on a different table or out of view it will not be
> > recognized by the user IN TIME !
> 
> A user deleting data in a spreadsheet should know what he/she is doing.
> I expect more situations can be found to 'help' users. I wouldn't start
> along this path.

I a agree partly with "a user deleting data", the problem is often "another
user is deleting .. "

in general I doubt that the majority - especially beginners - know what they
are doing. and even myself. after a few years not working in a specific
spreadsheet I can't remember some references and I am surprised to find a REF
error in another sheet.

the function "trace dependents" is available and could be used.
example 
sheet 1 cell a1=1, cell a2=2, 
sheet 2, cell a1=+$sheet1.A1+$sheet1.A2
clicking trace dependents in sheet 1 cell a2 creates a blue line with a dot in
cell a2 and a square - undefined.
at least the user would know that deleting the row/column with cell a2 will
create REF Error
Again, the performance argument is a weak one as the test needs to be fired
only on "delete", especially compared with the time needed to repair the error.
Sometimes the repair process is almost impossible, if for example the original
users has left the company. Checking all backups (if available) is extremely
time consuming.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |WONTFIX
   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |tietze.he...@gmail.com
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #21 from Heiko Tietze  ---
There is a general disagreement to your idea. I would appreciate a very
unobtrusive method of communication like via statusbar. But since we don't have
this we communicate per messagebox or infobar not even a balloon tip, and many
other situation would need to inform the user, the proposal is a WONTFIX.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|4.4.3.2 release |Inherited From OOo
 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

--- Comment #20 from Cor Nouws  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #0)
> if a referenced cell is deleted (delete row/column) the referencing cells
> show #REF
> if this cell is on a different table or out of view it will not be
> recognized by the user IN TIME !

A user deleting data in a spreadsheet should know what he/she is doing.
I expect more situations can be found to 'help' users. I wouldn't start along
this path.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
Version|5.0.3.2 release |4.4.3.2 release

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #19 from Buovjaga  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #18)
> Sorry guys,
> 
> I am a (python, sql) developer myself and I am aware of the danger of
> deleting referenced cells - a widely missing feature in all spreadsheets I
> know.
> 
> The problems hits less experienced users who should be protected against
> such "stupid" errors.

Then you can create a Python extension for it.

If we implemented this in core, then we would get dozens of bug reports
complaining about performance worsening on deleting cell contents.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #18 from Ferdinand  ---
Sorry guys,

I am a (python, sql) developer myself and I am aware of the danger of deleting
referenced cells - a widely missing feature in all spreadsheets I know.

The problems hits less experienced users who should be protected against such
"stupid" errors.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #17 from Buovjaga  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #16) 
> if in addition to the error in the cell a pop up is triggered with the undo
> option it would solve the problem without noticeable delay. 

Ok, I think you just moved the goalposts in such a way that this could now be
the job of your own special extension. Eike, do you agree? Then we could close
this and Ferdinand can find someone to develop such an extension for him.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #16 from Ferdinand  ---
Sorry I do not understand this reasoning in comment 15

the referenced cell shows the error immediately (given automatic calc is on) 

if in addition to the error in the cell a pop up is triggered with the undo
option it would solve the problem without noticeable delay. 

just my 2c

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #15 from Eike Rathke  ---
As this is not set to resolved fix it is not implemented, no.

First, we certainly do not want to scan the entire document (or broadcast and
collect a new before-deletion hint) whether a formula expression references a
to be deleted cell or not for each cell/column/row to be deleted. Second, an
expression could also reference a cell/range not only in cell formulas but also
in named expressions, validation, conditional formatting, ...  We could
significantly slow things down with such an approach, so anything like that
should be optional not activated by default, which then again doesn't help an
inexperienced user either. Plus, implementation would be cumbersome.

In short, I'm not a friend of this.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #14 from Ferdinand  ---
Hi 
I just want to recall the necessity to handle this problem as it is still not
addressed after 2 years in 5.3.3.2.

please will this feature be made available in 5.4 as suggested in comment 6?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #13 from m.a.riosv  ---
Sure, but I hope text can be modified to explain what it's affected by the
option.

I'm only think how to avoid a new option, because without an option to disable
remark for this matter, for me it would be absolutely unacceptable.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #12 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to m.a.riosv from comment #9)
>...

> To not create a new option, could be associated with
> Menu/Tools/Options/LibreOffice calc/General - Show overwrite warning when
> pasting data.

Not sure that checkbox would link the right behavior. The overwrite warning
there is:

"You are pasting data into cells that already contain data. Do you really want
to overwrite the existing data."

But here we are deleting cell(s) that have referenced linkages--and should be
aware of what happens to values in those referenced cells?  Warning should
probably be an alert that action would delete cell(s) with active reference(s).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #11 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #10)
One issue per bug, please.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #10 from Ferdinand  ---
pls look at the package manager
you can not delete a package with depending packages. 
you must "force" it and THEN it's your responsibility if you get an
inconsistent state.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

m.a.riosv  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||miguelangelrv@libreoffice.o
   ||rg

--- Comment #9 from m.a.riosv  ---
A non optional alert would be unacceptable work break.

To not create a new option, could be associated with
Menu/Tools/Options/LibreOffice calc/General - Show overwrite warning when
pasting data.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

  Component|LibreOffice |Calc

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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--- Comment #8 from Ferdinand  ---
sorry guys, data loss is always a major bug

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

--- Comment #7 from Buovjaga  ---
(In reply to Ferdinand from comment #5)
> may be this issue can still be addressed during the bug hunting session
> 5.3.0 Beta 2 !

The bug hunting session is not for fixing bugs, but for finding them.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||er...@redhat.com,
   ||kohei.yosh...@collabora.com
   ||, vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu

--- Comment #6 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@Eike, Kohei any opinion on this?

Would it be a legitimate alert to warn users of potential for data loss?

And would implementing something like this be too much of a nag if always
enabled, better to just provide as an configurable alert? And pick a default.

Probably no interest as a 5.3 late feature, but seems to have merit for 5.4.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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--- Comment #5 from Ferdinand  ---
may be this issue can still be addressed during the bug hunting session 5.3.0
Beta 2 !

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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--- Comment #4 from Ferdinand  ---
unfortunately still not fixed in 5.2.1.2

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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Ferdinand  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
Version|4.4.3.2 release |5.0.3.2 release
 Ever confirmed|0   |1

--- Comment #2 from Ferdinand  ---
Hi, any progress on this ?

can't be a big issue to pop up a window as in the referencing cell a REF error
is shown.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 92419] delete referenced cell - raise error

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https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92419

Beluga todven...@suomi24.fi changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||todven...@suomi24.fi
  Component|Calc|ux-advise
   Severity|major   |enhancement

--- Comment #1 from Beluga todven...@suomi24.fi ---
UX plz help.

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