[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-22 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |
   |.freedesktop.org|

--- Comment #36 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #35)
> but it is ambiguous about which (if any) should be indented more.
The checkbox "[ ] Register-true" is clearly placed under Layout settings with a
subordinate reference style. Don't see anything ambiguous there.

> And what about the "Activate" question?... And the tooltip question, comment 
> 31?
All fine, relabel as suggested, I like "Activate page line-spacing". I suggest
to go with a shorter tooltip and a longer extended tip.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #35 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #34)
> The combobox state depends on the checkbox- that's quite obvious to me. 
Me too.  But it seemed like the relationships could be improved.

> it has an indentation, which might be increased a bit. We have defined 18pt
> in https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/PropertyDialog
So this means, no change in placement of controls on Page Style dialog, except
for indentation?  but it is ambiguous about which (if any) should be indented
more.

And what about the "Activate" question?  (i.e., dropping the label in the
Paragraph dialog box? and using "Activate page line-spacing")

And the tooltip question, comment 31?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-21 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #34 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #33)
> The relation between checkbox "Page line-spacing" and combobox Reference
> style is not obvious in current design.  

The combobox state depends on the checkbox- that's quite obvious to me. And it
has an indentation, which might be increased a bit. We have defined 18pt in
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Guidelines/PropertyDialog

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-20 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #33 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk ---
(In reply to Regina Henschel from comment #32)
> There is a difference between page style and paragraph style. I thing the
> label "Follow Page Line Spacing" and checkbox "Activate" describes the
> purpose better.
Thanks (as usual) for helpful explanations.  

So -- is it correctly understood that "activating" the Paragraph dialog has no
effect, unless the checkbox is set on the Page dialog? 

Meanwhile

New proposal for Paragraph dialog box:

Change "Activate" label (currently present) to "Activate page line-spacing"  
(and drop the label "Follow Page Line Spacing)

(would that work?)

New question (for UX people) about Page Style dialog:

The relation between checkbox "Page line-spacing" and combobox Reference style
is not obvious in current design.  

Is there a "better" way to communicate the relationships here?  

For example:

Page line-spacing (as separate bold heading in line with Layout Settings)
  x Activate
  Set Reference to: (combobox)

(or "Set Reference Style to:")

(where, as before, combobox is disabled until checkbox is set)

Would also give some "visual/verbal" similarity with new proposal for Paragraph
dialog.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-20 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #32 from Regina Henschel  ---
There is a difference between page style and paragraph style. I thing the label
"Follow Page Line Spacing" and checkbox "Activate" describes the purpose
better.

When you enable "Page line-spacing" (register true) in the page style, you have
to set a paragraph style as reference, which is used to determine the
typographical grid.
Example: Set "Textbody" as reference style, and set all space before/after to
zero and set line spacing to fix 5mm in style "Textbody". That will result in a
5mm vertical typographical grid.

"Activate" in paragraph style means, that the paragraph will be vertically
aligned so that the bottom of a line is aligned with the typographical grid
line, which is determined by the reference style. The own line spacing defined
in the paragraph is only taken as minimum.

Example: You have a heading in style "Heading 1", here too with all space
before/after set to zero, and this "Heading 1" style has a font, which requires
8mm in height. Then with "Activate" on, the bottom of the heading line will be
put to align with the typographical grid line. So the heading gets 2mm space
above to the previous textbody paragraph. With "Activate" off, the heading
paragraph is placed immediately below the previous textbody paragraph.
The textbody paragraph after the heading will be at the same place in both
cases.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-20 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #31 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #29)
> Yes, plus a (lengthy) tooltip that might be better suited for the extended
> tip.
Whoops, I misinterpreted. 

No opinion (i.e., happy to do it either way).

Version 1.  Leave/use long tooltips  (i.e., current form).

Version 2.  Use new, short tooltip and move current "lengthy" Page format
tooltip to extended tooltip.  (and same for Paragraph).

If Version 2 is used, then seeking advice/proposals for a useful short tooltip.
My imagination fails to generate anything meaningful/useful (beyond the
proposed label "Use page-line spacing").

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-20 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #30 from sdc.bla...@youmail.dk ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #29)
Summarizing:

1. Will use:  Page line-spacing.
2. Will make this consistent in UI for:
a. Page format  (pageformatpage.ui)
b. Paragraph and Paragraph Style (paraindentspacing.ui)
3. Will replace "Activate" label and drop Heading in Paragraph dialog
4. Will change Attribute name in Find-and-Replace.
5. Will add a longish tooltip for Paragraph. (there is already one for Page
Format)

Remaining issues:

6. About verbs and checkbox labels.  I propose:

"Use page line-spacing" 

instead of "follow"

7. Question about interaction between setting (or not) on Page and Paragraph.
(relevant for tooltip and help pages, interpreting bug reports).  
Is there anyone who is likely to know the answer to this question? (or could
give a qualified guess?)

If there is a agreement about points 1-6, then I will start to make the
relevant patches.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-20 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #29 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to sdc.blanco from comment #26)
> Q1. As I understand, only the label has changed from "Register-True" to
> "Page line spacing".  No functionality change.  Is that correct?

Yes, plus a (lengthy) tooltip that might be better suited for the extended tip.

> Q2. Is there a special reason for using "Page line spacing" in Format - Page
> - Page, but "Follow Page line spacing" for the paragraph dialogs?

Don't think so.

> I would propose that "Follow" be dropped in paraindentspacing.ui

Using a verb at the beginning makes it more clear in general. How about "Follow
page line spacing" everywhere?

> or should it be:  Page linespacing  ?

Or "line-spacing" ;-). No opinion on this.

> P2. Is there any need for an "Activate" box in the paragraph dialog?  Why
> not use the same simple form as the Page dialog?

Guess it's technically not related to the line spacing and was placed there for
in an extra frame. I agree with a simple checkbox.

> Q3.  I assume setting this for Page will supersede the setting for Paragraph

Not sure.


Sorry for the delayed reply.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2020-10-17 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

sdc.bla...@youmail.dk changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org
   Keywords||needsUXEval

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |
 CC|libreoffice-ux-advise@lists |heiko.tietze@documentfounda
   |.freedesktop.org|tion.org

--- Comment #18 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Let's follow Pedro's suggestion.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #17 from pedro.silva  ---
Created attachment 154472
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=154472=edit
Proposal: using the well know line spacing term

Since the base line term didn't get that much support (even though is used
through out typography books and, just discovered, the writer guide itself)
here and since the term "Line spacing" is already well-known by the users I
tried to simplified this labelling by avoiding the use of any "base line" or
"grid" and instead using line spacing and by having it clear what are the
elements we are talking about (page vs paragraph) and how they affect our
document.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #16 from pedro.silva  ---
Created attachment 154471
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=154471=edit
How page dialog looks know (LO 6.3)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-25 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #15 from pedro.silva  ---
(In reply to Olivier Hallot from comment #14)
> (In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> > I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> > "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> > expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?
> 
> To be honest, Register true is very obscure for the average user. Wording in 
> 
> https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/shared/00/0005.
> html?DbPAR=SHARED#bm_id3147315
> 
> does not help at all (e.g. "congruent imprint"). To improve the Help page on
> it, please help me on my own questions:
> 
> - When should I mark the RT check box? What do I get? (use case)
> - what if I don't use RT? How bad it is?
> - A sample image (l10n neutral) showing the differences of using RT and
> not...

Agreed, I think the best explanation is available in the page 195 of the
LibreOffice writer 6.0 Guide but then again when defining the term used to
explain is **base line** and **base line grid** which was my initial proposal
as well.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-05 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #14 from Olivier Hallot  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #11)
> I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?

To be honest, Register true is very obscure for the average user. Wording in 

https://help.libreoffice.org/6.4/en-US/text/shared/00/0005.html?DbPAR=SHARED#bm_id3147315

does not help at all (e.g. "congruent imprint"). To improve the Help page on
it, please help me on my own questions:

- When should I mark the RT check box? What do I get? (use case)
- what if I don't use RT? How bad it is?
- A sample image (l10n neutral) showing the differences of using RT and not...

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-05 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #13 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Created attachment 153922
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=153922=edit
Text of ODF 1.2 standard for 20.328 and 20.329

http://docs.oasis-open.org/office/v1.2/os/OpenDocument-v1.2-os-part1.html#__RefHeading__1420116_253892949

So, while we can adjust the UI for better UX, we likely will always drag along
the old printing/binding etymology.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-05 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #12 from pedro.silva  ---
As Register line spacing / Reference style(In reply to Heiko Tietze from
comment #11)
> I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
> "Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background
> expertise into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?

As visible in the discussion I think it's reasonable to say that Register-true
is far from ideal and I'm ok with any of the stated proposals. I'm mostly
concerned with the UX aspect of it and if, as a plus, the feature gets more
discoverable/used just because of labelling then I think it's awesome.

Stuart suggested: Register line spacing / Reference style

Which I have no problem with (just a few worries which I have already elaborate
on that) but overall sounds good. I think.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-05 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Ever confirmed|0   |1
 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEW
 CC||olivier.hallot@libreoffice.
   ||org

--- Comment #11 from Heiko Tietze  ---
I doubt that "Referenced line spacing" is more informative than
"Register-true". It would be more helpful to take Stuart's background expertise
into the documentation. What do you think, Olivier?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-04 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Cor Nouws  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Version|unspecified |Inherited From OOo
 CC||c...@nouenoff.nl

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-04 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Blocks||99525

--- Comment #9 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Actually, (In reply to pedro.silva from comment #8)
> - Align to fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
> - Fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
> - Referenced line spacing / Paragraph style:
> 
> I think the 3rd would be a good because not only it's more clear it uses the
> same terminology from the Paragraph dialogue (Paragraph Styles > Indents &
> Spacing). To pair with this, in the Paragraph dialogue the group titled
> "Register-true" with the checkbox "Activate" would become:
> 
> - Referenced line spacing / Activate

Actually rather than "reference" (a paragraph style applied against the page)
the concept would be "registration"--now common in alignment of offset press
CMYK and half-tone image print work. But here it predates that considerably
coming from the folding of large folio paper sizes to impose the signatures
with correct sequence and alignment (front to back and across pages) -- when
accomplished the printing and binding is "register-true" and "folded with the
print".

But we have little support for imposing and printing 'folio, quarto, octavo,
duodecimo, sextodecimo' layouts. Just look at the Print dialog's pages per
sheet and order where we can not impose a multi-page print layout that would
correctly _fold_. That and a lack of means to provide bleeds, trim, and
registration marks means we can't directly perform DTP--and "register-true"
while correct is not really appropriate.

What we are able to do well is provide correct page to page registration of
textual content. As our pages are composed dynamically when paragraphs are
rendered the printing on pages will not register--page to page, column to
column. But when we enable "register-true" on page styles, and allow individual
paragraphs to pick up the alignment from the selected reference paragraph's
line height (its font height, internal leading, external leading) as a baseline
the documents textual content will register as if "imposed" correctly and then
"folded with the print", trimmed, and bound.

So, while "register-true" is a correct label--agree its etymology is obscure
and is really not helpful UX--but the action is still registration.

Rather than Reference, I would suggest:

Register line spacing / Reference style


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99525
[Bug 99525] [META] Enhance Draw's DTP capabilities
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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-04 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #8 from pedro.silva  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #7)
> Obviously we do not implement a vertical grid typesetting framework on which
> objects can be aligned.

Understood.

> Rather, we describe a "Reference" paragraph style--font and leading--that
> establishes a text line height. And effectively sets text "baselines" as
> vertically filled from top down and applied within margins of a page style. 
> 
> Multiple paragraphs on multiple pages will be aligned to that baseline when
> those paragraphs (selectively) are 'Register true' enabled. 
> 
> And beleive different page styles (each with a "Reference style" and
> corresponding line height/baselines) can be defined (pre-defined in
> template) for use in complex documents.
> 
> This is a different approach to that of InDesign or even Scribus.

Agreed, it is most def. a different approach and I see no problem with that.

In this bug what I tried to propose was a better labelling. As you see when
describing the functionality you use the word Baseline (let us forget for a
minute about the "Grid"). Also I never encounter any educational material on
graphic design, typography or simply about print with that term but all of
these do have baselines as a though term. Moreover and as you see in
https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Printing_Register-true the current term is
not really about an element or characteristic of the text/page but rather an
ideal to be achieved "This term refers to the congruent imprint of the lines
within a type area[...]" so it's kinda odd that is being used as a label for an
on/off toggle. 

Nevertheless I hear you and so here are some options that could be a better fit
than the current “Register-true”/“Reference Style:” in Page Style > Page (tab):

- Align to fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
- Fixed Baseline / Reference Style:
- Referenced line spacing / Paragraph style:

I think the 3rd would be a good because not only it's more clear it uses the
same terminology from the Paragraph dialogue (Paragraph Styles > Indents &
Spacing). To pair with this, in the Paragraph dialogue the group titled
"Register-true" with the checkbox "Activate" would become:

- Referenced line spacing / Activate

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||rb.hensc...@t-online.de,
   ||vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
URL||https://ask.libreoffice.org
   ||/en/question/79746/register
   ||-true-grid-settings/

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #7 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Obviously we do not implement a vertical grid typesetting framework on which
objects can be aligned.

Rather, we describe a "Reference" paragraph style--font and leading--that
establishes a text line height. And effectively sets text "baselines" as
vertically filled from top down and applied within margins of a page style. 

Multiple paragraphs on multiple pages will be aligned to that baseline when
those paragraphs (selectively) are 'Register true' enabled. 

And beleive different page styles (each with a "Reference style" and
corresponding line height/baselines) can be defined (pre-defined in template)
for use in complex documents.

This is a different approach to that of InDesign or even Scribus.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #6 from QA Administrators  ---
[Automated Action] NeedInfo-To-Unconfirmed

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

QA Administrators  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEEDINFO|UNCONFIRMED
 Ever confirmed|1   |0

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #5 from pedro.silva  ---
- Meggs' History of Graphic Design (mine is the 5th edition) also mentions
baseline multiple times
- The Elements of Typographic Style by Robert Bringhurst (mine is the 4th
edition) has also some mention of baseline (also leading and vertical motion)

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #4 from pedro.silva  ---
Created attachment 153840
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=153840=edit
Term used in Scribus

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #3 from pedro.silva  ---
Created attachment 153839
  --> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=153839=edit
Page from the book Thinking with Type by Ellen Lupton, InDesign screenshot

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

--- Comment #2 from pedro.silva  ---
(In reply to Heiko Tietze from comment #1)
> Do you have references for the term used on other tools, ie. "Scribus, Adobe
> InDesign, etc."?

Yes, I can attach here if you wish. I can also try (at the best of my
abilities) to list here common typography/graphic design manuals/books where
the term used is always Baseline Text.

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|UNCONFIRMED |NEEDINFO
 Ever confirmed|0   |1
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12
   ||7280

--- Comment #1 from Heiko Tietze  ---
Do you have references for the term used on other tools, ie. "Scribus, Adobe
InDesign, etc."?

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[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 127279] Register-true with better labelling

2019-09-03 Thread bugzilla-daemon
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127279

Xisco Faulí  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||libreoffice-ux-advise@lists
   ||.freedesktop.org,
   ||xiscofa...@libreoffice.org
   Keywords||needsUXEval

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